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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Music is my hobby, composition and playing. Which is why I would like to discuss it. I've been blue to say the least for so long, it's good to share my interest with likeminded people who would also understand my problems.

Many people think music is just nonsense. That it's just a matter of taste. But I beg to differ! In music there's value. I will teach you now this value :)
So embark with me on a musical journey, it's worth giving it time. And if not hopefully nothing too MAJOR was lost.

The first thing you should know is that there are 12 notes in an octave.
It looks like this:

1675039673786
As you can see that is 12, that pattern repeats throughout the whole piano.
Don't worry that applies to all music, not just piano, it's just the piano is a good way to understand music.
Remember that all those notes are completely equal! In their quality or something.
The black notes don't make different sounds or anything like that.
Now lets talk about what's a major scale.
A major scale is simple a set of 7 notes (though we mention the first note again when playing or talking about the scale), that have particular jumps in between.
There is whole-tone jump and half-tone jump. In short W or H.
Major scale has this pattern: W W H W W W H

Let's pick some note on the piano and see which notes do we fall down on:

1675040137421
C D E F G A B *C*

What are the chances! We started on this white note and managed to make a list of notes based on the requirement of W W H W W W H
Consisting only of white notes!! That is called the C major scale. This scale is very easy because you don't need to think much in order to come up with it.
You can just focus on the white notes on the piano and will click C major notes.

If you notice that pattern now repeats because the final note is C. Which is also the beginning, so the pattern can repeat there.

The notes are C D E F G A B *C* (see? the last one is actually the first one, cursed doppleganger!)

Why is that important? If you play that scale in order you'd notice that it actually makes melodic sense, feeling complete.
But in addition to that it's helpful when writing music.

The next thing you should know, is what are chords. Chords is actually a combination of 3 notes, IN A SCALE. It's important to be in some scale, please don't do it out of scale... That would make me even more depressed than I already am. Let me give you an example within C major:

1675040563736

As you can see, I picked the note C and created a chord.
Chords give color to melody and to music. They set the mood.

This is only the basic of the basic. Once all of that becomes your inner muscle - you will see that it goes much deeper than that.

If there are any questions DM or write below! Will try to answer ASAP. I will soon enough continue and write a continuation.



A piece that expresses great sorrow by Bach, I know it may sound a little strange to you.
And if it's not to your taste, that's understandable... Once you will grow musically enough you will understand it. Just trust me.
 
S

suisuiforum

Experienced
Jul 4, 2021
237
Oh wow this post takes me back to when I used to study piano a long time ago (albeit not very in depth). I've played pieces by Bach as well, including a few from the WTC. Do you have recommendations for sad pieces lol? Some of my favorites are Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto, Tchaikovsky's piano trio in a minor, and Chopin's etudes (Op. 10, No. 3 and Op. 25, No. 1 in particular).
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Oh wow this post takes me back to when I used to study piano a long time ago (albeit not very in depth). I've played pieces by Bach as well, including a few from the WTC. Do you have recommendations for sad pieces lol? Some of my favorites are Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto, Tchaikovsky's piano trio in a minor, and Chopin's etudes (Op. 10, No. 3 and Op. 25, No. 1 in particular).
Very good! That's the spirit! Playing Bach WTC pieces is the greatest musical enrichment! Good on you really!

For sad pieces my recommendations go back to Bach, because probably it's almost entirely the only music I listen to at this point in life.

Problem is when Bach go sad, everyone are a little weirded out sometimes. Which makes this whole situation even more sad...

So here you go:







The composers you mentioned - Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Chopin. To me they are too happy, attempting to be sad but failing... Sadly...
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
7,271
Got to confess- I'm not musical at all but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it!

I love this piece from the new version of IT:



What is your opinion of it? It feels to me like it's traditional, yet creepy. What is it that makes certain pieces of music sound creepy? It fascinates me- even though I don't have the background to understand it!
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Got to confess- I'm not musical at all but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it!

I love this piece from the new version of IT:



What is your opinion of it? It feels to me like it's traditional, yet creepy. What is it that makes certain pieces of music sound creepy? It fascinates me- even though I don't have the background to understand it!

What makes this piece feel creepy to you is modulation I believe.

If you try on your own piano to play A minor chord and then play G# minor chord, you will see there's harmonic movement similar to this piece as it has this sharp modulation. And then after G# minor comes F minor and then D minor.

Kind of goes crazy all over the place in order to attempt to feel creepy (and of course fail in my department in the most sad and depressing way huhu)

By the way it doesn't just play the chords but changes to the scale of those chords melodically just know.

I must stress that indeed what you feel as the "creep" is caused by the sudden changes of chords. It's a very useful effect for that feeling of course
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
7,271
What makes this piece feel creepy to you is modulation I believe.

If you try on your own piano to play A minor chord and then play G# minor chord, you will see there's harmonic movement similar to this piece as it has this sharp modulation. And then after G# minor comes F minor and then D minor.

Kind of goes crazy all over the place in order to attempt to feel creepy (and of course fail in my department in the most sad and depressing way huhu)

By the way it doesn't just play the chords but changes to the scale of those chords melodically just know.

I must stress that indeed what you feel as the "creep" is caused by the sudden changes of chords. It's a very useful effect for that feeling of course
Thanks so much for replying. It's interesting to hear the reason's from a theory perspective. I'm fascinated by all artforms that make us feel a certain way and why. Have you heard of liminal spaces? It was a term used to coin mainly photographs of places that seem at the same time familiar to us yet disturbing. Think maybe this piece of music has a similar effect on me!
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Thanks so much for replying. It's interesting to hear the reason's from a theory perspective. I'm fascinated by all artforms that make us feel a certain way and why. Have you heard of liminal spaces? It was a term used to coin mainly photographs of places that seem at the same time familiar to us yet disturbing. Think maybe this piece of music has a similar effect on me!
Of course! My pleasure of course to reply.

That's interesting what you say about liminal spaces. I don't believe that in music there's anything comparable. It may remind you of liminal spaces though because creepy music may remind us of creepy things. One of the creepy things is liminal spaces and when you are creeped you think of creepy stuff.

If you notice the chords that create this effect, are also creating this "mystical" or "mystery" vibe. But also create "evil" vibe.
Mystery and the "creep" feel have a lot in common.
 
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suisuiforum

Experienced
Jul 4, 2021
237
Very good! That's the spirit! Playing Bach WTC pieces is the greatest musical enrichment! Good on you really!

For sad pieces my recommendations go back to Bach, because probably it's almost entirely the only music I listen to at this point in life.

Problem is when Bach go sad, everyone are a little weirded out sometimes. Which makes this whole situation even more sad...

So here you go:







The composers you mentioned - Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Chopin. To me they are too happy, attempting to be sad but failing... Sadly...

Ohh interesting, hearing you say that Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, and Chopin don't compose sad pieces is a pretty spicy take that I've never heard before, but the pieces you recommended slap pretty hard. Do you only listen to Bach or do you also listen to other composers in the Baroque period? Honestly, I wouldn't say that Bach is one of my favorite composers, but I do believe that people should study his work in order to really improve their technique on their instrument of choice. Like for Romantic and Contemporary pieces, not to say they're easy, but you can kind of be a little melodramatic and convey the atmosphere pretty well, but for the Baroque or even early Classical period, it's all about technique and minute details that you must perfect in order to give a convincing performance. That also brings me to next question, did you also study piano, another instrument, or primarily focus on other areas of music like composition?
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Ohh interesting, hearing you say that Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, and Chopin don't compose sad pieces is a pretty spicy take that I've never heard before, but the pieces you recommended slap pretty hard. Do you only listen to Bach or do you also listen to other composers in the Baroque period? Honestly, I wouldn't say that Bach is one of my favorite composers, but I do believe that people should study his work in order to really improve their technique on their instrument of choice. Like for Romantic and Contemporary pieces, not to say they're easy, but you can kind of be a little melodramatic and convey the atmosphere pretty well, but for the Baroque or even early Classical period, it's all about technique and minute details that you must perfect in order to give a convincing performance. That also brings me to next question, did you also study piano, another instrument, or primarily focus on other areas of music like composition?
Well 🤣 I was just meaning they are not to my taste and I am not impressed from pieces that seem to me like a firework show with no girth behind.

By no means I say of course there is no sadness in their pieces, in all seriousness of course romantic pieces convey atmosphere. Often times for me they are not impressive.

So to your first question: Do I only listen to Bach or other baroque composers? I practically at this point listen only to Bach and trying out anything new I don't know and giving it a shot from any other composer as well, whether it comes to a symphony or piano or anything else. But Bach truly has something in his pieces that other composers don't. They are brilliant beyond just "I feel the emotion!!", they are brilliant mathematically. And not giving up on beauty and emotion. They combine the two.

Second question: I studied a little piano and also self studied to play the trumpet. Was forced also to study the recorder as a kid but thankfully forgot everything including the pain. And yes as I mentioned I also compose music. I like to play pieces by Bach. I can play only 3 fully so far. Prelude 1, Prelude 2, Fugue 2 all from WTC 1.

Maybe all of that is just ranting and you know all this, but I'm just saying in case - I don't mean to roast Chopin or Tchaikovsky or any other composer like that. Only meaning to offer a different "kind" of sadness that I find emotional and beautiful, and also much deeper.

 
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suisuiforum

Experienced
Jul 4, 2021
237
Well 🤣 I was just meaning they are not to my taste and I am not impressed from pieces that seem to me like a firework show with no girth behind.

By no means I say of course there is no sadness in their pieces, in all seriousness of course romantic pieces convey atmosphere. Often times for me they are not impressive.

So to your first question: Do I only listen to Bach or other baroque composers? I practically at this point listen only to Bach and trying out anything new I don't know and giving it a shot from any other composer as well, whether it comes to a symphony or piano or anything else. But Bach truly has something in his pieces that other composers don't. They are brilliant beyond just "I feel the emotion!!", they are brilliant mathematically. And not giving up on beauty and emotion. They combine the two.

Second question: I studied a little piano and also self studied to play the trumpet. Was forced also to study the recorder as a kid but thankfully forgot everything including the pain. And yes as I mentioned I also compose music. I like to play pieces by Bach. I can play only 3 fully so far. Prelude 1, Prelude 2, Fugue 2 all from WTC 1.

Maybe all of that is just ranting and you know all this, but I'm just saying in case - I don't mean to roast Chopin or Tchaikovsky or any other composer like that. Only meaning to offer a different "kind" of sadness that I find emotional and beautiful, and also much deeper.



Nah everyone has a different opinion, and it didn't even seem like a roast lol. That video you linked really explains why it's important to study Bach. Having all those different voices constantly switching throughout the piece means you really need to make sure to nail the correct phrasing. I've noticed that in many pieces from other eras (and most egregiously in modern-day popular music), the main melody is primarily the highest pitch in the right hand, so you don't really get to develop that type of finger independence and music theory that's needed for Bach's music.

LOL I also remember playing the recorder in elementary school, and I do not miss that at all.

Since you said you've tried listening to symphonies, how much do you like those (or chamber music, which is so underrated IMO)? Honestly, there are some that I like, but I've found that I understand piano pieces the best and can really appreciate specific interpretations of a piece because that's what I had training in.
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Nah everyone has a different opinion, and it didn't even seem like a roast lol. That video you linked really explains why it's important to study Bach. Having all those different voices constantly switching throughout the piece means you really need to make sure to nail the correct phrasing. I've noticed that in many pieces from other eras (and most egregiously in modern-day popular music), the main melody is primarily the highest pitch in the right hand, so you don't really get to develop that type of finger independence and music theory that's needed for Bach's music.

LOL I also remember playing the recorder in elementary school, and I do not miss that at all.

Since you said you've tried listening to symphonies, how much do you like those (or chamber music, which is so underrated IMO)? Honestly, there are some that I like, but I've found that I understand piano pieces the best and can really appreciate specific interpretations of a piece because that's what I had training in.
Bach is important to study in terms of playing the piano. But more so he is important for composition to realize, there's one composer out there which is objectively good - beyond just an opinion. Anyone can copy the style of other composers, but you have to have fundamental of music understand to "Copy" the style of Bach. It just objectively is hard to do what he did. In order to copy Bach you need to be able to make an audible melody that fit to itself in 8 different ways. Just for an example!

For me the interpretation of a piece is not everything. I feel the same as you, when piano piece is being played its easiest understanding what was done different here in interpretation. But what is more important to me than anything is the composition, melody and so on. I like music that is memorable and enjoyable to listen to. And Symphonies? Well to me they drag on a bit too much although there are some just absolute master works in the form of a symphony. I really like chamber music too only when it's done right. There's no point for me in chamber music when there is no amazing memorable melody just like any other piece :)

Here is example of an amazing duo:



This piece would be beautiful whether symphony or just a simple clavichord! (Bach had a few version of that one)

But yeah I still don't really prefer the symphony actually, despite the fact it was my dream as a 9 year old to write a symphony :|
Just long and dragging on. But of course nothing is as painful as Opera. My ears just can't sustain that sound for more than a minute.

And finally:



This one is not perfect, I would have made it more EPIC.
 
aticeret

aticeret

Member
Jan 23, 2023
29
I'm not proficient in music theory, but your thread is inspiring. Please keep going with it! Regarding operas, have you ever listened to Puccini's Tosca? It may change your mind. That was the first opera I've ever listened to.
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
I'm not proficient at music theory, but your thread is inspiring. Please keep going with it! Regarding operas, have you ever listened to Puccini's Tosca? It may change your mind. That was the first opera I've ever listened to.
Will give it a listen, thanks :)
 
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Sakura94

empty
Nov 26, 2020
673
Really good thread I read all of it. Hope to get into piano soon need to find good youtube based lessons :P
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
Really good thread I read all of it. Hope to get into piano soon need to find good youtube based lessons :P
Good choice :)
Piano is a great instrument for understanding music!

You can even right away start with Bach prelude in C major

If you can play slowly you can play fast as well!
 
S

suisuiforum

Experienced
Jul 4, 2021
237
Bach is important to study in terms of playing the piano. But more so he is important for composition to realize, there's one composer out there which is objectively good - beyond just an opinion. Anyone can copy the style of other composers, but you have to have fundamental of music understand to "Copy" the style of Bach. It just objectively is hard to do what he did. In order to copy Bach you need to be able to make an audible melody that fit to itself in 8 different ways. Just for an example!

For me the interpretation of a piece is not everything. I feel the same as you, when piano piece is being played its easiest understanding what was done different here in interpretation. But what is more important to me than anything is the composition, melody and so on. I like music that is memorable and enjoyable to listen to. And Symphonies? Well to me they drag on a bit too much although there are some just absolute master works in the form of a symphony. I really like chamber music too only when it's done right. There's no point for me in chamber music when there is no amazing memorable melody just like any other piece :)

Here is example of an amazing duo:



This piece would be beautiful whether symphony or just a simple clavichord! (Bach had a few version of that one)

But yeah I still don't really prefer the symphony actually, despite the fact it was my dream as a 9 year old to write a symphony :|
Just long and dragging on. But of course nothing is as painful as Opera. My ears just can't sustain that sound for more than a minute.

And finally:



This one is not perfect, I would have made it more EPIC.

I've never done anything related to composition so I can't really do that type of analysis, seems like it requires a lot more theory than I'm used to. I forgot about operas but yeah haha I can't really get into them either.
I also forgot to mention that I had the chance to play harpsichord before, but I don't really like it as much. I just prefer all the ways you can create phrasing and different dynamics on piano instead, but I like the sound of the harpsichord too.

Good choice :)
Piano is a great instrument for understanding music!

You can even right away start with Bach prelude in C major

If you can play slowly you can play fast as well!
Lol was that a twoset reference at the end? 👀
 
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Joop

Joop

Beethoven
Jan 23, 2023
20
I've never done anything related to composition so I can't really do that type of analysis, seems like it requires a lot more theory than I'm used to. I forgot about operas but yeah haha I can't really get into them either.
I also forgot to mention that I had the chance to play harpsichord before, but I don't really like it as much. I just prefer all the ways you can create phrasing and different dynamics on piano instead, but I like the sound of the harpsichord too.


Lol was that a twoset reference at the end? 👀
Composition requires theory only depends on what specifically you want to create! Before I knew theory I actually modulated smoothly from distant keys without realizing even what that means. The reason is anyone, even talentless, if they just sit and try hard they will manage to make some decent composition at least without knowing theory. It's just theory is so effective and really letting you know of ALL the options and ways to do something. Also theory teaches you what is the "purpose" of a piece. What does "develop" mean? And so on. It helps you with finding a target when composing, a goal of sorts. For example "Can I write a canon that fits onto itself when upside down and slowed down?", knowing theory let's you know about such things and what are the rules for such a thing (counterpoint in particular).

About the harpsichord - it's a nice instrument but similarly to you I prefer the piano. The piano has dynamics and the sound really is much closer to the human voice for me. When I listen to Bach it almost sounds to me like singing many times - because of the voicing of the chords and counterpoint. Also I never touched a harpsichord I wish I had the opportunity lol

What I said in the end is not a twoset reference 🤣🤣 it's a famous saying among people who play the piano. Because often times beginners, including me, when playing the piano - they want to learn the piece at full speed right off the bat. But actually playing it slowly is the right way to practice first, because assures your accuracy and fingerings are better. Although twoset are hilarious, amusing videos.
 
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