Discussion Medical aid in dying as a dereliction of duty for governments

[well2hell]

Medical aid in dying (MAiD) in Canada is opening up to non-terminally ill people and some other countries are now thinking about changing their legislation on the matter.

Lately, there have been reports of people in Canada who wish to pursue their lives but who materially cannot do so because the state has refused to help them. For instance, people who have become homeless after an unfortunate but not uncommon series of events, like losing their job, then divorcing and ending up homeless, and not receiving unemployment benefits; as well as disabled people who do not receive the care and financial support they need, such as palliative care (whether at the hospital or at home), sufficient disability benefits and medical research into treatments for their diseases.

Understandably, the suffering that their living conditions bring about then forces these people to apply for MAiD, even though it could be alleviated if they received what they need.

These examples show that opening up of MAiD to non-terminally ill people can give governments an easy way out of problems that they are responsible for and that they ought to be fixing. With austerity politics coming up in the current economical context, MAiD can even somewhat justify them taking measures that exacerbate these problems — namely, less funding for health and social care and medical research.

Personally, I am concerned that MAiD may be abused by governments in this way. Time will tell if it remains an exception or becomes a common occurrence, but these examples are already worrying.

What do you think of this situation?

 

[noaccount]

Right there is absolute continuity between medical institutions forcing suicidal people intro treatment, doctors sexually abusing people labeled mentally ill, doctors gatekeeping pain meds away from people, doctors denying ventilators and organ transplants to those they judge unworthy of life, doctors forging DNR orders to murder people who want to be resuscitated, and... this.

We know these are people who are willing to torture and kill to get their way. Whether it's straight-up forging a signature, or saying, "oh, you don't want this? well, no more vital medication for you, we'll put you through withdrawal hell until you break down and agree to sign," or any of the insidious propaganda that's constantly used to bully and abuse people and make them feel their workplace productivity is the measure of their worth. This is absolutely not power medical institutions should have or be trusted with.

 

[well2hell]

Right there is absolute continuity between medical institutions forcing suicidal people intro treatment, doctors sexually abusing people labeled mentally ill, doctors gatekeeping pain meds away from people, doctors denying ventilators and organ transplants to those they judge unworthy of life, doctors forging DNR orders to murder people who want to be resuscitated, and... this.

We know these are people who are willing to torture and kill to get their way. Whether it's straight-up forging a signature, or saying, "oh, you don't want this? well, no more vital medication for you, we'll put you through withdrawal hell until you break down and agree to sign," or any of the insidious propaganda that's constantly used to bully and abuse people and make them feel their workplace productivity is the measure of their worth. This is absolutely not power medical institutions should have or be trusted with.

Indeed. I did not have medical abuse of power in mind specifically but it can definitely push people into MAiD even if they wish to live. Medical power can also serve the interest of governments and healthcare insurance companies — e.g. denying disability benefits and health care needs (all it takes is a negative medical assessment).

 

[jodes2]

I think it's just coincidence that people are unwillingly being pushed towards MAID. I totally doubt there's a political agenda to kill people rather than give support. It's just very unfortunate that many people see it as their only, undesirable, option

 

[well2hell]

I think it's just coincidence that people are unwillingly being pushed towards MAID. I totally doubt there's a political agenda to kill people rather than give support. It's just very unfortunate that many people see it as their only, undesirable, option

Absolutely not. Governments always try to minimize public expenses, not give support wherever they can, and this includes cutting back on the aids that are essential for people in need. The UK is a prime example of that.

See the situation in Canada:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/sathya-dharma-kovac-als-medical-assistance-in-death-1.6605754

 

[Shadow Life]

MAiD may be opening up to non-terminally ill individuals, but until there is a report that someone has used this method to escape poverty and/or homelessness is just pure speculation - and catastrophic thinking. Simply having the right-to-apply for MAiD does not mean someone will be allowed to use it as a means to an end of circumstantial hardship. There are [and will be] rigorous hoops to jump through, not to mention it being a very lengthy process. It's not as easy to be accepted by countries such as Belgium or Switzerland as one thinks - and it will be just as difficult in Canada, if not more difficult. I think the only reason they've opened it up to those with mental illness is to appease those in favour of it - not because it will be easy to be accepted. No worries.

 

[well2hell]

MAiD may be opening up to non-terminally ill individuals, but until there is a report that someone has used this method to escape poverty and/or homelessness it's just pure speculation - and catastrophic thinking. Simply having the right-to-apply for MAiD does not mean someone will be allowed to use it as a means to an end of circumstantial hardship. There are [and will be] rigorous hoops to jump through, not to mention it being a very lengthy process. It's not as easy to be accepted by countries such as Belgium or Switzerland as one thinks - and it will be just as difficult in Canada, if not more difficult. I think the only reason they've opened it up to those with mental illness is to appease those in favour of it - not because it will be easy to be accepted. No worries.

It is not speculation or catastrophic thinking; please see the report(s) I have linked to above.

I agree that the process is not always easy but doctors can easily realize that someone who applies for MAiD has awful living conditions and more importantly no way to improve them because there is no help coming from authorities. This could convince them to agree to sign off on a MAiD application, as it did for the homeless man mentioned above.

 

[Shadow Life]

It is not speculation or catastrophic thinking; please see the report(s) I have linked to above.

I agree that the process is not always easy but doctors can easily realize that someone who applies for MAiD has awful living conditions and more importantly no way to improve them because there is no help coming from authorities. This could convince them to agree to sign off on a MAiD application, as it did for the homeless man mentioned above.

Good. Then my own application for it, next year, has some hope of being accepted, too. Of course, with the continued interference from right-to-lifers, maybe not..

I will note that in order to get past the gate-keepers to the program, you'd need a family doctor to approve the application, first. Good luck to anyone who doesn't have a family F*n doctor, though.

 

[well2hell]

Good. Then my own application for it, next year, has some hope of being accepted, too. Of course, with the continued interference from right-to-lifers, maybe not..

I will note that in order to get past the gate-keepers to the program, you'd need a family doctor to approve the application, first. Good luck to anyone who doesn't have a family F*n doctor, though.

I am sorry you are facing this situation. It is ironic that poor access to healthcare caused by government policies (here, a shortage of doctors) winds up being a problem for accessing the government's newfound solution in MAiD.

 

[Shadow Life]

I am sorry you are facing this situation. It is ironic that poor access to healthcare caused by government policies (here, a shortage of doctors) winds up being a problem for accessing the government's newfound solution in MAiD.

Are you in favour of MAiD for the mentally ill?

 

[bdtbath]

Medical aid in dying (MAiD) in Canada is opening up to non-terminally ill people and some other countries are now thinking about changing their legislation on the matter.

Lately, there have been reports of people in Canada who wish to pursue their lives but who materially cannot do so because the state has refused to help them. For instance, people who have become homeless after an unfortunate but not uncommon series of events, like losing their job, then divorcing and ending up homeless, and not receiving unemployment benefits; as well as disabled people who do not receive the care and financial support they need, such as palliative care (whether at the hospital or at home), sufficient disability benefits and medical research into treatments for their diseases.

Understandably, the suffering that their living conditions bring about then forces these people to apply for MAiD, even though it could be alleviated if they received what they need.

These examples show that opening up of MAiD to non-terminally ill people can give governments an easy way out of problems that they are responsible for and that they ought to be fixing. With austerity politics coming up in the current economical context, MAiD can even somewhat justify them taking measures that exacerbate these problems — namely, less funding for health and social care and medical research.

Personally, I am concerned that MAiD may be abused by governments in this way. Time will tell if it remains an exception or becomes a common occurrence, but these examples are already worrying.

What do you think of this situation?

First thing that came to mind is this sketch, but except it looks like it could plausibly happen in real life:

I don't blame people choosing ctb over homelessness.

 

[well2hell]

Are you in favour of MAiD for the mentally ill?

My opinion doesn't matter, but for what it's worth, I believe everybody should have the right to choose.

To me, the main problem is that for a substantial number of people, mental illness is secondary to financial, social/societal and other kinds of problems that governments should be fixing and it could be alleviated if these people received the help they want. Instead, they are choosing to circumvent their duty and propose MAID where they fail.

(Of course, this does not apply when mental illness is not the result of such issues or has been made unsolvable, like permanent harm from psychiatric medication.)

 

[Rounded Agony]

Dang. Good food for thought, thanks for sharing. I didn't know access had been expanded earlier this year already to people with disability, about which both of your reports are. This stuff just illustrates the incredibly nuanced reality of the issues of suicide and euthanasia; like many folks on this site who would love to live but don't have whatever it is they need, this is the same situation. Cheaper and easier than bolstering services for sure.

The reality is that several public healthcare systems have been getting systematically gutted by provincial leaders for years to pave the way for privatized services, and the pandemic has seriously expedited the whole thing with nurses, support workers, and physicians leaving their fields in droves. I posted recently about the coming changes and shared a bit for non-Canadians about how excruciatingly long it already takes for things beyond primary care here. Canada's healthcare seems to have this very false image abroad as a paragon of universal healthcare but the reality is that most (not all) services don't cost any money. But you better believe they cost an unbelievable amount of time, and often suffering at the hands of unskilled, indifferent, or downright cruel practitioners.

 

[well2hell]

Dang. Good food for thought, thanks for sharing. I didn't know access had been expanded earlier this year already to people with disability, about which both of your reports are. This stuff just illustrates the incredibly nuanced reality of the issues of suicide and euthanasia; like many folks on this site who would love to live but don't have whatever it is they need, this is the same situation. Cheaper and easier than bolstering services for sure.

The reality is that several public healthcare systems have been getting systematically gutted by provincial leaders for years to pave the way for privatized services, and the pandemic has seriously expedited the whole thing with nurses, support workers, and physicians leaving their fields in droves. I posted recently about the coming changes and shared a bit for non-Canadians about how excruciatingly long it already takes for things beyond primary care here. Canada's healthcare seems to have this very false image abroad as a paragon of universal healthcare but the reality is that most (not all) services don't cost any money. But you better believe they cost an unbelievable amount of time, and often suffering at the hands of unskilled, indifferent, or downright cruel practitioners.

Reality is nuanced, indeed: MAID comes with benefits and drawbacks. I agree with your point about Canadian public healthcare. Public healthcare in my country has a great reputation abroad, but it too is collapsing because of liberalization / privatization and, at the same time, our government wants to make assisted suicide legal. Whether this is a coincidence or not, it opens up the possibility of such consequences.

 

[noaccount]

MAiD may be opening up to non-terminally ill individuals, but until there is a report that someone has used this method to escape poverty and/or homelessness is just pure speculation - and catastrophic thinking. Simply having the right-to-apply for MAiD does not mean someone will be allowed to use it as a means to an end of circumstantial hardship. There are [and will be] rigorous hoops to jump through, not to mention it being a very lengthy process. It's not as easy to be accepted by countries such as Belgium or Switzerland as one thinks - and it will be just as difficult in Canada, if not more difficult. I think the only reason they've opened it up to those with mental illness is to appease those in favour of it - not because it will be easy to be accepted. No worries.

There ARE reports just look at them with your eyes or use a screen reader to read them to you

 

[Shadow Life]

We seem to have presumed that the man in the video had MAID suggested to him, thereby condemning the program's existence for the non-terminal. Government agencies are not trolling the city streets or poverty-stricken neighbourhoods suggesting to people that dying is the way out; I doubt there are pamphlets posted to power poles advertising MAID as a solution to their problems. For all we know, he himself chose the program as a way out of the scary unknown future he was facing. His reasons were fear-based. Fear (not fact) that he would be evicted from the rooming house just because it was up for sale and knowing that he would have a very difficult (not impossible) time finding another room for rent. The problem, though, is that the building had not yet been sold and he'd not yet been evicted, nor was he told that evictions would follow with its sale. It is his choice to end his life, instead of the daunting alternative: finding a room to rent or share; moving out of the city, perhaps, to find a room..

To be fair, journalists and their editors like to make a big splash in the news, so dare I say that this little clip/interview only tells a small portion of the whole truth. Their agenda was to inflame the use of MAID in the hopes to bring about its demise. To demonize it. And, to bring shame and stigma to anyone who would consider it for themselves. It's all political. It always is.. The title itself is misleading, death over homelessness. He's not homeless, nor is it a foregone conclusion.

I think this man, yes, is fearful of not being able to afford another room, but more importantly, I believe he is suffering great physical and mental pain because of his disability. I've read the formal application to MAID, and it is absolutely clear that without severe pain or a decline in the disability [or whatever] no application would be accepted. It also requires that all other forms of available support be made available to him. Therefore, even after being given a list of supports that are available to him, he chose not to accept. HIs reasons are his own and have not been shared (like so much of that interview..)

The doctor, apparently, himself stated that the reason for the man's choice is a fear of being homeless. Well, in the current economic state, he is far from the only vulnerable person afraid of becoming homeless. Does that mean we should all be terrified that all vulnerable people will use MAID as an escape? Of course not! That is ridiculous considering the very strict rules in place. The pro-lifers and the media have an agenda of their own.

Most of the individuals who've chosen this way out, in the videos I've watched, say they don't want to die either, but that does not stop them from choosing it; what they want is the unbearable pain to end; they want to die with dignity and their faculties intact.

I feel sad for his plight of not being able to afford more than a room but, as one commentator of that video wrote: the affordability issue should be taken up with the Provincial gov't that determines the monthly disability payment amount. I hope he finds peace in his decision.

 

[affinity]

I think it's just coincidence that people are unwillingly being pushed towards MAID. I totally doubt there's a political agenda to kill people rather than give support. It's just very unfortunate that many people see it as their only, undesirable, option

I would have to find the link which confirms same (the Cdn gov actually ran the numbers and it was pretty stark), but respectfully, it's very naive to believe governments/insurance companies/economists haven't run the numbers on whether it would be better for the state (and taxpayer) to offer this option to those who are viewed as a drain on the system versus being a contributor. You also have to keep in mind that its original intention was to reduce the costs of palliative care & hospice and doctors were livid that palliative care centres started receiving substantially less funding upon the passing of MAID.

We have already seen 2 cases which have come to pass where the persons were disabled and the state could not offer them safe housing. One woman required housing where she wasn't exposed to smoke and strong cleaning products and there simply weren't any housing options available to her. The doctors were furious and frustrated, but they had to acknowledge there simply were no viable options to help their patients.

There was also documentary on offering this option in Oregon and one of the participants who I believe had pretty advanced stage cancer showed us the letter he received which basically stated, "Hey, the options left for you aren't financially feasible, please consider physician assisted death".

RE the case mentioned by the OP: the man who was recently at risk of being homeless was offered housing by someone local to him. He's said to be doing much better.

The only way out of this is if we all stop being narcissistic & selfish assholes and we remember that we as humans were meant to be communities & that we need to help one another - not islands unto ourselves. I appreciate the govt can and should be a safety net, but the majority of govs we have in place now don't give AF about us unless we are rich donors/corporations.

 

[noaccount]

No one finds anything in death @Shadow Life death is the opposite of finding something.

Like did you find anything before you were born? No. It's the same after.

And dude was far, far from an isolated case, people have been directly posting on social media, recording conversations / paperwork from their medical "providers" about this. If you know that eugenics exist, if you know anything about the history of sterilization, the concept "ballastexistenz", or how immunocompromized people have been treated as an acceptable sacrifice for the past two years, nothing about this is even slightly surprising.

 

[well2hell]

We seem to have presumed that the man in the video had MAID suggested to him, thereby condemning the program's existence for the non-terminal. Government agencies are not trolling the city streets or poverty-stricken neighbourhoods suggesting to people that dying is the way out; I doubt there are pamphlets posted to power poles advertising MAID as a solution to their problems. For all we know, he himself chose the program as a way out of the scary unknown future he was facing. His reasons were fear-based. Fear (not fact) that he would be evicted from the rooming house just because it was up for sale and knowing that he would have a very difficult (not impossible) time finding another room for rent. The problem, though, is that the building had not yet been sold and he'd not yet been evicted, nor was he told that evictions would follow with its sale. It is his choice to end his life, instead of the daunting alternative: finding a room to rent or share; moving out of the city, perhaps, to find a room..

To be fair, journalists and their editors like to make a big splash in the news, so dare I say that this little clip/interview only tells a small portion of the whole truth. Their agenda was to inflame the use of MAID in the hopes to bring about its demise. To demonize it. And, to bring shame and stigma to anyone who would consider it for themselves. It's all political. It always is.. The title itself is misleading, death over homelessness. He's not homeless, nor is it a foregone conclusion.

I think this man, yes, is fearful of not being able to afford another room, but more importantly, I believe he is suffering great physical and mental pain because of his disability. I've read the formal application to MAID, and it is absolutely clear that without severe pain or a decline in the disability [or whatever] no application would be accepted. It also requires that all other forms of available support be made available to him. Therefore, even after being given a list of supports that are available to him, he chose not to accept. HIs reasons are his own and have not been shared (like so much of that interview..)

The doctor, apparently, himself stated that the reason for the man's choice is a fear of being homeless. Well, in the current economic state, he is far from the only vulnerable person afraid of becoming homeless. Does that mean we should all be terrified that all vulnerable people will use MAID as an escape? Of course not! That is ridiculous considering the very strict rules in place. The pro-lifers and the media have an agenda of their own.

Most of the individuals who've chosen this way out, in the videos I've watched, say they don't want to die either, but that does not stop them from choosing it; what they want is the unbearable pain to end; they want to die with dignity and their faculties intact.

I feel sad for his plight of not being able to afford more than a room but, as one commentator of that video wrote: the affordability issue should be taken up with the Provincial gov't that determines the monthly disability payment amount. I hope he finds peace in his decision.

Your argument seems to overlook the fact that many homeless people (or to be homeless) are in poor health because they cannot afford decent healthcare, so they may well be disabled and in severe pain and thus meet the criteria for MAID. Conversely, disabled people are at much higher risk of facing homelessness because of unemployment and insufficient disability benefits (if any).

 

[Shadow Life]

"...so they may well be disabled and in severe pain and thus meet the criteria for MAID" precisely my point @well2hell. Homelessness, real or feared, on its own, is not an acceptable reason for MAID.

 

[well2hell]

"...so they may well be disabled and in severe pain and thus meet the criteria for MAID" precisely my point @well2hell. Homelessness, real or feared, on its own, is not an acceptable reason for MAID.

On its own, I agree. But I have a hard time imagining that someone who is homeless for quite some time won't end up developing significant health problems.

Another serious concern is that MAID in Canada may enable eugenics:

 

[Shadow Life]

On its own, I agree. But I have a hard time imagining that someone who is homeless for quite some time won't end up developing significant health problems.

Another serious concern is that MAID in Canada may enable eugenics:

I agree that the homeless are highly vulnerable and suffer from health problems.

 

[Rounded Agony]

Well, this thing seems to really be blowing up...

Madeline Can’t Afford To Live With Her Illness - Chatelaine

Why a medically assisted death may be her only option.

t.co

Woman with chemical sensitivities chose medically-assisted death after failed bid to get better housing

A 51-year-old Ontario woman with severe sensitivities to chemicals chose medically-assisted death after her desperate search for affordable housing free of cigarette smoke and chemical cleaners failed, advocates say.

t.co

'I can't live that way': Montreal man seeking medically assisted death due to home care conditions

A 66-year-old Montreal man who is quadriplegic says he is seeking medical assistance in dying because changes to his home care services are causing him relentless pain and discomfort.

t.co

Woman with disabilities nears medically assisted death after futile bid for affordable housing

A 31-year-old Toronto woman who uses a wheelchair is nearing final approval for a medically assisted death request after a fruitless bid to secure an affordable apartment that doesn't worsen her chronic illnesses.

t.co

Ontario woman enduring effects of long COVID begins process for medically assisted death

Contracting COVID-19 radically changed Tracey Thompson's life. The Toronto woman says the enduring illness and lack of substantive financial support has led her to begin the process of ending her life.

t.co

Despite being rather aware and critical of this country's shortcomings in this matter, many thanks @well2hell for really helping me connect the dots on this one. Sadly I feel the quite serious issues at hand here wouldn't be a cause for concern for a lot of the user base of this site; yet another thing I feel sets me a bit outside the masses. Never fully at home anywhere, it seems!

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Given Canada's opposition to the death penalty, I am surprised they're even allowing MAiD. I don't think the Government of Canada is for killing people based on how liberal it is towards capital punishment.

 

[neoyokio]

Medical aid in dying (MAiD) in Canada is opening up to non-terminally ill people and some other countries are now thinking about changing their legislation on the matter.

Lately, there have been reports of people in Canada who wish to pursue their lives but who materially cannot do so because the state has refused to help them. For instance, people who have become homeless after an unfortunate but not uncommon series of events, like losing their job, then divorcing and ending up homeless, and not receiving unemployment benefits; as well as disabled people who do not receive the care and financial support they need, such as palliative care (whether at the hospital or at home), sufficient disability benefits and medical research into treatments for their diseases.

Understandably, the suffering that their living conditions bring about then forces these people to apply for MAiD, even though it could be alleviated if they received what they need.

These examples show that opening up of MAiD to non-terminally ill people can give governments an easy way out of problems that they are responsible for and that they ought to be fixing. With austerity politics coming up in the current economical context, MAiD can even somewhat justify them taking measures that exacerbate these problems — namely, less funding for health and social care and medical research.

Personally, I am concerned that MAiD may be abused by governments in this way. Time will tell if it remains an exception or becomes a common occurrence, but these examples are already worrying.

What do you think of this situation?

I am definitely concerned about it being used this way, given the helathcare and welfare systems leave a lot of room for protracted suffering. It makes the question of MAiD so much more complicated. and I find that so many disabled people (I am also disabled) are really against it for that reason; they see it as eugenics for the poorest of disabled people. I don't see any disabled people advocating it which represents the interests of a lot of disabled people (I mainly follow disability twitter). Yeah, the system is fucked. some of us want to fight, that's fine, some of us want out, it's sad, but also should be our right. But I don't dare voice my opinion on twitter about it, though I've wanted to. I don't really see a solution because what are they going to do, magically fix the Canadian healthcare/welfare system to a great functioning machine? It's too complex of an issue and it's made me realize it's naive to think MAID will make much progress of being implemented beyond terminal illness under captitalism. It certainly reveals the flaws of the system in a very painful way, doesn't it?