Discussion Meaning and purpose

[Nihilisticstatic]

Unsure how to phrase this. How does your opinion on value, meaning and nature of things affect your opinion of death and reason to live. Why should one care about others if nothing matters? Should one be the kindest possible in order to create meaning in other people's life? Isnt that the same as giving meaning to your life?

 

[Ch4in3dcr0w]

People were able to find meaning in the objectivly meaningless life. There are also inviduals like on this site who will never find it. Just because there is a meaning in the meaningless doesnt mean that everyone can find that purpose to keep on living. Suicide is just an option for those who are unable to keep on existing in the endless suffering that life is.

Why should one care about others if nothing matters?

because he shouldnt care at all, the only thing a invidual should think about is his own happiness and satisfaction. You will never know if your "kindness" is not just another twisted form of dealing pain to others and it shouldnt matter to you. Being nice only matters in your narcissistic need to be a "good" person that brings you peace of mind or joy.

 

[Nihilisticstatic]

People were able to find meaning in the objectivly meaningless life. There are also inviduals like on this site who will never find it. Just because there is a meaning in the meaningless doesnt mean that everyone can find that purpose to keep on living. Suicide is just an option for those who are unable to keep on existing in the endless suffering that life is.


because he shouldnt care at all, the only thing a invidual should think about is his own happiness and satisfaction. You will never know if your "kindness" is not just another twisted form of dealing pain to others and it shouldnt matter to you. Being nice only matters in your narcissistic need to be a "good" person that brings you peace of mind or joy.

I love your point of view.

 

[Persona3]

Your logic has a valid point, but equating kindness with narcissism is mistaken.

If the only thing that matters is my own happiness and satisfaction, then manipulation, lying, or using others as tools would be completely justified as long as it benefits me and makes me happy. So why wouldn't I take advantage of others if that's all that counts? And I'm not even talking about fake kindness with narcissistic motives that would fall perfectly in line with your own ,,only think about your own happiness,, philosophy. You can't call kindness narcissistic while promoting a worldview that literally encourages narcissistic behavior.

You've posted far more than I have. What was your actual contribution here? Have you only thought about yourself and never spared a single thought for the people interacting with you?

Don't take this personally, take your time just share your opinion, I'll read it like a man and then we'll leave it at that. I'm not completely disagreeing with you either. I wish you a good day my friend

 

[Forever Sleep]

I sometimes wonder if nihilists truly don't care about anything. Surely- they are still subject to cause and effect? Would they really not mind starving or going thirsty or cold? I imagine they would have a preference not to suffer. So- then- doesn't their comfort matter somewhat? They're also surely still subject to survival instinct so- will their own bodies let them starve comfortably?

I also found your observation of maybe still caring about other people interesting although, I wonder if some find it easier to let that go. Or, not be beholden to it- at least- in terms of choosing to suicide.

But say- if their elderly relative fell and possibly broke a bone- would they just leave them on the floor? Because- they don't matter- surely? If nothing does. Do they want to be potentially injuring themself- trying to help the person up? Do they want the hassle of emergency services turning up? There again- if they leave them to die there- won't they start to smell and become a health hazzard? Does that matter though? If nothing matters? I doubt many would be so heartless to do that but then- I think meaning and preference does creep in when they are presented with choices to make.

Could they for example- make any choice by flipping a coin and leaving it to fate? Unlikely because- they probably do have a preference. They probably do still want the right to choose too. So- that demonstrates a need or value element. That the right to choose is important to them still.

I'm probably being harsh here but, I tend to notice quite a few nihilists are NEETS- so- most likely- someone else is taking care of their basic needs for shelter, food, water, sanitation, entertainment even. They may even be able to take for granted that they won't ever have to worry about those things.

So- maybe they aren't quite so subject to cause and effect. If they don't worry or bother about working, buying and preparing food, maintaining their environment- someone else will likely do it for them. So- they don't even necessarily need to consider the things other people do.

I think that's sometimes the difference. Those without that level of support have to support themselves. Then, we may try to move on to the path of least resistance. So- we may try to pursue a job or career we have more interest in- if it's going to take up so much of our time. Preference becomes important when you have to start making multiple choices. I think we search for meaning as a kind of coping mechanism.

Really though- nihilists are still making choices. They may choose to stay in bed all day and not wash- for days on end. That may start to impact their health. That's what I do find curious though- will that really not bother or matter to them? Or, will they do just enough to avoid illness? Of course, some illnesses will make it harder for them to choose to get up and wash etc.

For me personally though, I believe something closer to absurdism. I don't think there is a universal meaning for everyone. But, I think we are able to seek out meaning individually and, whatever we land upon can feel very real/ valid to us.

I agree with the need to question authority and rules. Who's making these rules? Are they fair? Do they benefit some over others? From an anti-natilist point of view- why should we be expected to comply to anything?

On the other hand though. Just practically speaking- we would struggle as a species- if we all decided that we'd rather not work! That's not ignoring the likelihood that some people can't work of course.

But- that's something else I feel curious about. I've witnessed nihilists poke fun at all the 'sheeple' complying to their 9-5's. What do they think would happen to them if they no longer did that though? Their parents stopped working and, they all lost their home? People stopped paying taxes so- there was no more money for their benefits?

Would they mind living on the streets? Would they still hope other people would look after them? What if they didn't or couldn't? Wouldn't they then be compelled to try to find food, water, shelter? Wouldn't things like comfort start to matter then?

While I don't like some rules or religions, I do see the need for some laws. I do agree that- to live in a society harmoniously, we do need certain rules to protect one another. It matters that we try to prevent certain behaviours- surely?

That's another thing I suppose I don't understand. Would a nihilist truly not care if their family members were murdered? Would they just not be bothered whether they tried to find the perpetrator? It's hard to believe they could be so nonchalent if some catastrophic event impacted them personally.

If it was more random than that. For example, a tornado destroyed their house/ street. Would they really have no expectation or hope that their governments would provide aid? Would they truly not have an opinion on what their government should do when its citizens are displaced?

I just think- practically speaking- they must have thoughts about that. About the right thing that should be done? So- that implies there is value to making the better choice. That it's important that emergency services show up after disaster hits.

I tend to think nihilism can be a huge dispondent feeling that nothing holds meaning or value. Nothing is worth it. I think people use it as a form of defiance too. 'I'm not complying with these rules and expectations you created'. I can understand that perspective and, relate to it to some extent.

But, I tend to think it starts to unravel as a theory in reality. If all their liberties truly were taken away. If they were no longer provided for. If them and their family were all in increased danger. I have a feeling that practically suffering- because their lives had changed substantially- they might start to re-evaluate the importance that people do in fact work. That we do have laws and emergency services. That, as societies- we have people covering all our needs- food, water, sanitation, healthcare, safety, transport, entertainment. I think they likely would miss those things if they weren't provided for/ available to them.

So, even if they find no value in doing those jobs themselves- I'd imagine a lot would struggle if they weren't done.

 

[itsgone2]

So, even if they find no value in doing those jobs themselves- I'd imagine a lot would struggle if they weren't done.

I really enjoyed your whole post. Nicely done. I would also choose absurdism.
I'm about to lose a job for a second time due to an acquisition. So I see meaning in work but it keeps being taken from me.
This time has been particularly devastating.
So maybe nothing does matter. I've done so much. So much for work. So much for my personal growth. In the end it literally didn't matter. It's being taken from me by greedy assholes.
I don't know now. Perhaps nothing matters. H

 

[Forever Sleep]

I really enjoyed your whole post. Nicely done. I would also choose absurdism.
I'm about to lose a job for a second time due to an acquisition. So I see meaning in work but it keeps being taken from me.
This time has been particularly devastating.
So maybe nothing does matter. I've done so much. So much for work. So much for my personal growth. In the end it literally didn't matter. It's being taken from me by greedy assholes.
I don't know now. Perhaps nothing matters. H

I think this is the problem with caring about stuff. It hurts when we then lose whatever it is. I guess that's where the nihilists and, perhaps the Buddhidts win- if they feel less or no value in or feel no attachment to things.

I'd still say it mattered though- because it gave you a feeling of purpose while it lasted. I'm so sorry you're going through this. It must be a very stressful time.

Perhaps we can 'adopt' certain perspectives to help us better cope in life. As someone who tends to catastrophize, the nihilist viewpoint can help calm me down. As in- does what I'm in a panic about really matter at the end of the day? Also, being worried about failing in life can feel exhausting. So- to once again question whether it does in fact matter. Who am I striving for? Am I just trying to live up to other's expectations of me? Should I feel obliged to? Those sorts of perspectives can help soften the fear of failure- for me anyway.

I wonder if we all tend to adopt what serves us best though. For me- striving towards a creative career was my lifeline from a really early age. It more or less saved me. It certainly felt like it was my purpose in life. So- for a long time- that served me best.

I suppose since that career was always under threat. Because there were times I more or less quit even- I probably strayed into nihilism to help wean myself off. Does it in fact matter what I do? I suppose, with a suicidal bent too- nihilism is useful. Life doesn't matter. We all die anyway. Why does it matter if I bring the date forward?

For your situation though- I would say this... This is obviously a massive setback and disappointment for you. It also highlights the horrible uncertainty of the world and job stability. There again, it doesn't have to be the end. You may end up in a different job you like even more.

I started out on a different creative career pathway. After leaving uni, I spent 7 years working in retail alongside trying to get my career off the ground. I only had limited success. I likely would have limped on though unless I had gone to see an agent- who effectively (metaphorically) ripped my work apart. I felt utterly crushed. To some extent- the worst I've ever felt. All my hopes were dead for many days. It felt like my world was over in a way. Eventually though, I made the decision to retrain in another area. And- touch wood- I've done better there. It hurt like hell at the time but ultimately, it did me a favour.

So- serbacks don't always mean the end. They sometimes lead the way to better things. Not always of course. The whole: 'it gets better' is a ridiculous assumption- in my opinion. It's not impossible though.

I think we have to decide though ultimately. Do we still believe in trying to find and follow a purpose in life? Accepting that future failures may well occur and, they'll hurt like hell. Or, do we abandon hope, throw in the towel and let everything just peter out?

I think ultimately- where we think we'll be happiest tends to inform us. Would you be all that happy in a wage slave job or, going NEET? (If you can.) Wouldn't you still be pining for your career choice?

I'm in this weird limbo stage between the two. I don't have the drive I used to- which means I don't have the same motivation. I do have the same job and responsibilities though. So- I'm finding it pretty hard to still follow and fight for my purpose, when my heart has largely gone out of it. I suppose for me now, it's more that I'm marking time with something at least tolerable.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

life has no purpose. nothing is meaningful except me avoiding long lasting constant unbearable pain.

To me the only things that matter are related to me avoiding unbearable pain and my suicide as soon as possible.

but the only reason these things matter to me is because they forced me to be born alive in this hell with a brain that can suffer unending constant unbearable pain,.

i can't tolerate excruciating pain. if you think you can try holding your breath or not drinking water or food for days. if you try to hold your breath after a minute or 2 the pain will increase a million fold every second and cause you to surrender to the pain and breathe . so the brain is a torture chamber by default. we have to work eat groceries a 1000 things every day just to keep away the excruciating pain of starvation, extreme thirst , cold weather etc. and these are just needs that evolution programmed . also a slave to mind as you will need mental stimulation. imo other needs on top are also programed by experience and culture which to me are not objectively important for example the need to watch a video niche ( bad time wasting habits)

even if all your physical needs as above are met. if you are put in a small room with just bare walls . food and water piped in. how long before 99.9% of humans or all humans surrender and ask to be let out? who can stand being a room with nothing for days weeks months years? imo nobody so the brain is a torture chamber . we are slaves to the body , mind and to society and others.

i have to get up and try to work, groceries, eat, drink water a thousand other things every day . i do these things not because i want to but because i'm a slave to my body and mind needs implanted by evolution and society into my brain. for example i have to eat and drink water because i can't tolerate the horrible pain of extreme thirst ( try to not eat and drink anything and the thirst will build and build by the 2nd day at most and you will see how the brain is a torture chamber by default).

if i were able to kill myself then what could matter , nothing because i won't exist forever after.

what can be important to someone that doesn't exist?

Any other human can tell me that something is important or that matters to them .

but they can't convince me that it does matter, is important, or that i have to do it , believe it or want to do it.

for example they say "you have to fight to live"

Why do i have to live even another minute? i don't .

"you have to watch the news". "you have to worry about others , get friends, get a girlfriend" a thousand other garbage

why do i have to ? i don't have to . will any of that trash matter in 150 years? 1000 years? a trillion years? no

what that we do today will matter in 1000 years? a trillion years? nothing

nothing matters in the long run. but i can't go through extreme torture.

 

[FuneralCry]

That this existence is the most terrible tragic mistake that just causes harm and suffering with no limit as to how much one can be tortured and I could never see a point to any of this, it's just pain and suffering all for the sake of it and I just always suffer so much as a result of this dreadful, cruel existence, all I wish for is to be gone, existing is just so futile to me, it's just waiting to die and I'll always prefer to not exist than suffer in this torturous existence no matter what.

 

[Ch4in3dcr0w]

Im guessing this is towards me so i will respond ^^

If the only thing that matters is my own happiness and satisfaction, then manipulation, lying, or using others as tools would be completely justified as long as it benefits me and makes me happy. So why wouldn't I take advantage of others if that's all that counts?

In my own opinion you are free to do that if it brings you happiness and thats what u need to achive peace, im no one but just an invidual that cannot judge you. Im not looking objectivly at things such as any judgment of mine would be wrong.

Im guessing by your question that it doesnt bring you happiness and u feel like its wrong, thats why you wouldnt do that. The satisfaction you would achive from manipulating your way in social interactions doesnt feel right to you and would only bring you more suffering.

fake kindness with narcissistic motives

Im not talking about fake kindness. We are all born from narcissists and we all are them too. When thinking about bringing happiness to others you also experience happiness, that why there is "real" kindness in this world but that doesnt change the fact that its narcissistic.

The fact that all of us are narcissitic doesnt mean that we cannot be good. If we all are evil that just means its the new normal with all brand new spectrum that u can call people "bad" and "good" with.

You've posted far more than I have. What was your actual contribution here? Have you only thought about yourself and never spared a single thought for the people interacting with you?

Well for contribution its probably just maybe making someone smile or be seen because thats what brings me statisfaction in my miserable life. i care about people in my personal life because thats just who i am. Im am narcissistic like anybody but my own narcissism like for many other wich is probably you aswell shows itself with the need to make others feel better.

TLDR: Objectivly everyone is a narcissist but it doesnt mean that it cannot show itself with kindness and helping others. U can still call people good and bad its just a different spectrum.

Have a good day ^^

 

[TAW122]

I voted for existentialism/absurdism because I believe that the meaning we give is only valuable to us from our perspective. The perspective of the universe (a non-sentient entity) would neither care (nor could it) about the outcome and purpose that we assign to our existence and struggle. If we never came to be (before humanity or even any intelligent and sentient species), it would simply just exist but not comprehend it's existence or being aware on a higher level of it's conscious (e.g. simple cell organisms, cells, and things).

 

[Persona3]

Im guessing this is towards me so i will respond ^^


In my own opinion you are free to do that if it brings you happiness and thats what u need to achive peace, im no one but just an invidual that cannot judge you. Im not looking objectivly at things such as any judgment of mine would be wrong.

Im guessing by your question that it doesnt bring you happiness and u feel like its wrong, thats why you wouldnt do that. The satisfaction you would achive from manipulating your way in social interactions doesnt feel right to you and would only bring you more suffering.


Im not talking about fake kindness. We are all born from narcissists and we all are them too. When thinking about bringing happiness to others you also experience happiness, that why there is "real" kindness in this world but that doesnt change the fact that its narcissistic.

The fact that all of us are narcissitic doesnt mean that we cannot be good. If we all are evil that just means its the new normal with all brand new spectrum that u can call people "bad" and "good" with.


Well for contribution its probably just maybe making someone smile or be seen because thats what brings me statisfaction in my miserable life. i care about people in my personal life because thats just who i am. Im am narcissistic like anybody but my own narcissism like for many other wich is probably you aswell shows itself with the need to make others feel better.

TLDR: Objectivly everyone is a narcissist but it doesnt mean that it cannot show itself with kindness and helping others. U can still call people good and bad its just a different spectrum.

Have a good day ^^

I just wanted to point out the contradiction to you.
Seeing everything as selfish doesn't erase the difference between behaviours that support others and behaviours that harm them. Even if both come from self interest, one can still be far more unethical than the other. Calling kindness narcissistic oversimplifies the whole picture and ignores those moral distinctions. We already have enough monsters in this world, and I'm pretty sure it's obvious which kind of ,,selfish,, people we'd rather have around us.

Thanks for sharing your perspective I wish everyone their very best(karma), we're all somehow on the same sinking ship after all

 

[Nihilisticstatic]

I sometimes wonder if nihilists truly don't care about anything. Surely- they are still subject to cause and effect? Would they really not mind starving or going thirsty or cold? I imagine they would have a preference not to suffer. So- then- doesn't their comfort matter somewhat? They're also surely still subject to survival instinct so- will their own bodies let them starve comfortably?

i agree with you a lot, nihilism has a lot of contradictory elements that don't fully make sense. Another example is the fact you choose to adhere to the word nihilism.

(1)They do make choices but I wonder if the "nothing matters" means you have to adhere to treating everything as if it didn't matter. (2)Perhaps they mean nothing matters from a spectator point of view on the long run (once they're dead for example). It's hard to tell, but those 2 hypothesis are my best guesses.

In all honesty, I dont believe in nihilism much. Like you, absurdism seems to most logical. Also, I loved your reasoning ^^