Maybe it fits

[angelicisight]

I just want space to discuss sorrow. I'm not suicidal, I don't believe I have the right to life nor death, I am a Christian, so I don't know if this space will work for me, but we'll find out. I want to introduce myself first. It's not like I actually want to talk to you, whoever you are reading this, but I want to introduce myself to this space, and we'll see how I come around to feeling about whether or not I can do what I want in the future after that.

I often have to listen to videos to fall asleep. Not everyday but most days. I was listening to an Elder Scrolls lore video last night into the morning. When I was awake, they talked of all these gods, and it was very interesting to me. I thought about how foreign this style of religion felt to me even though I think it is a style that has had real historical presence. I spent some time trying understand how to even wrap my head around this style of belief, and I think I came to this point of thought; given the limited comprehensive capacity of our minds, religion will exist on a spectrum between explanation and meaning. A polytheistic religion explains so much, but the sense of meaning is so chaotic from it.

What I believe in doesn't offer much explanation. If you look at the Biblical narrative, God doesn't prove himself by revealing what is true. He just does miracles to validate who he is to his people. Instead the content of my religion concerns itself far more with "This is the story of what is going on. You want to understand your life? Well here's the plot." Even in our current day, we are still in the plot of Revelations. There's supposed to be these two and a half eras of Satan, then there is suppose to be a river of chaos, and then there is suppose to be a thousand years free from lies until the final end comes. That's my understanding of the narrative, and it seems we are right before the time of truth, but I could be wrong. It's written in a way that although very specific things are mentioned, there's not a lot of order to it. Plus, it seems like there's very cyclical ideas along with the overarching narrative in Revelations. I have full confidence in my understanding, but I don't feel I have to be right type of thing.

Okay, but anyways that's just to say I am really invested in narrative ideas when it comes to what I believe. I do value explanation, and I think explanation is something that is beneficial to seek out. The explanation will never hold authority in my mind like the narrative does though. Because all the explanation does is not really show us what is true, it shows us how to go along with truth type of thing. In that, I don't care if the explanation is right. I care it's good enough to try and get me to fit in with what I read in the text I believe in. It's a lifestyle of constant learning, but that part of it is fun because it's not particularly consequential whether or not I am right or wrong. The consequences are sort of based in other areas that aren't really influenced by understanding.

Jeez, this was longer than I thought, but no here's my problem. I love death. I am not talking about some performative poetic feeling of darkness and macabre. I think that's disingenuous for me. I like the idea of taking up my cross and suffering in conviction and guilt. I like feeling sick and afflicted. I like being filled with sorrow, remorse, and grief. I like expressing lamentations and embracing death. I like these things because they play a very powerful role in the narrative. I don't want my identity to become that otherwise I really would just go with a CTB method, but there are times where I go heavily in the direction of these ideas when it fits the plot.

I don't want to express this sorrow in the wrong space because then I get misunderstood, and if I have enemies, I get hospitalized. There was a pastor whose reputation I was essentially ruining by just expressing myself. One day, I write of my friend Jeremy. He was trying to get clean from his addiction from heroine. He started going to mens group in church. It was really good for him. The church went on summer vacation, he relapsed and overdosed. I expressed sorrow over that publicly, and the pastor whose church this was lied telling the cops I was suicidal. I was not, but he had influence, and he did see me as an enemy. He had already kicked me out of the church, and he increased the security at his church as well because he was somehow paranoid of me. I don't know why he thought he was in anyway relevant, but it was whatever. I just don't want to be attacked like that again with lies. It caught me off guard when the police showed up to take me away because my sorrow was mixed in my mind with everything, but if I separate it to here, I will never be unprepared if someone tries to falsely accuse me again.

I don't even think it's a real threat against me that his could happen to be honest. I have a lot more understanding, but I hate how my sorrow had enough appearance of confusion that such a lie could stick. I have no power nor influence, so there is no reason such a lie would be maintained against me other than grounds of lack in clarity. Well I want to make my sorrow extremely clear than by giving a place for it exist as it real feels. It does feel like suicide. It does feel like death because it really does go along with this narrative of taking up my cross, forsaking my wellbeing, and embracing guilt regardless if it is mine or not. It's heavy, but it never really kills me, and I also need it to kill me. There's so many things in my life I can't let continue to live on. Just last night I spent around 45 min just weeping in sorrow over something that was afflicting me. I can't let certain things live on, but I have no idea what must die and what must live until I bring it to this point of death. That's just how it is.

Especially because I got people I care about now. I got a life I care about now unlike before, so when I come to point of letting things die again, I don't want to kill off a connection that doesn't need to go. If it needs to go, fine, I'll kill it no problem, but I don't want to kill my connection to people until I know it needs to happen. It hurts so much losing people, and I am tired of feeling like I lost someone unnecessarily. I'm tired of cutting people out of my life and not knowing if that really needed to happen or not. I'm so tired of it, but this sorrow can be so confusing sometimes, so I just make these drastic relational decisions I can't take back, and it breaks my heart not knowing if it was right or not. Somethings I will never know I don't think while I am here, but I want to be sure in the future of what I can. Well that's it. I'm done. Talk again later.

 

[Goodgirlryeo101]

You sound so intelligent … I have used the word "performative" and "disingenuous" a lot recently, what a coincidence and I oh another one, you truly have time in your hands. What a great life you have.

Having said that I wish you all the best with whatever you are going through.

Ps you are new to this site, hi and welcome to SS and I hope you find what you are looking for here.

 

[Darkover]

to me all religions in the world are just man made fictions
i mean do you think all Gods from different religions are real or just fictions created by humans?

Anthropologists estimate that at least 18,000 different gods, goddesses, and various animals or objects have been worshipped by humans since our species first appeared. Today, it is estimated that more than 80 percent of the global population considers themselves religious or spiritual in some form

 

[angelicisight]

You sound so intelligent … I have used the word "performative" and "disingenuous" a lot recently, what a coincidence and I oh another one, you truly have time in your hands. What a great life you have.

Having said that I wish you all the best with whatever you are going through.

Ps you are new to this site, hi and welcome to SS and I hope you find what you are looking for here.

I feel I have been afforded an incredible amount of power to take care of myself. I think that must be the "great" thing about my life is that I really understand how to take care of myself. I don't undermine your use of the word great in quoting it, but I only quote it because I wish to note that although there is reason to call my life great, I don't experience that greatness. In fact, I often find myself running from what makes me "great".

I want to experience the most beautiful life possible, and my life isn't beautiful in my greatness. It's beautiful in weakness I feel because in my weakness I get to experience grace and love. There is nothing more desirable to me than that. However, it also causes me to experience much despair as well. I am constantly forsaking myself where I am strong because feeling weak is like an addiction. I always want to feel it. There are these moments that so serene, so beautiful, graceful, so undeserved that are just the highest of highs for me. I can't feel any of that in my stronger moments although the power is nice for some sense of security. I can't feel the beauty when I am afraid I can no longer maintain my own survival. Oftentimes I fear this drug is so desirable for me that I will be fully given to the experience and never get myself strong enough to do the work I need to provide myself. I think my instinct is too strong to let this happen thankfully.

Well, I am a little astonished there has been some positivity in what I wrote. Most people don't seem to want me to exist. I get ignored a lot, but I appreciate the positivity. Thank you.

 

[The anhedonic one]

Saying suicide is a sin wasn't introduced into the Christian religion until 6 A.D.
It also never once mentions in the Bible that suicide is a sin.
The word Hell is also an old English word that means "underground" as opposed to a place of eternal burning etc.
Religions are a man-made concept.

 

[angelicisight]

to me all religions in the world are just man made fictions
i mean do you think all Gods from different religions are real or just fictions created by humans?

Anthropologists estimate that at least 18,000 different gods, goddesses, and various animals or objects have been worshipped by humans since our species first appeared. Today, it is estimated that more than 80 percent of the global population considers themselves religious or spiritual in some form

Okay, I will take your question as though it was meant for me. I don't know if you actually want my answer. As I mentioned, I think religions exist on a spectrum. I think there is explanation and meaning. My religion exists far more heavily in meaning than explanation. It tells a narrative. Therefore the validity of my religion gets constantly tested by how much does the narrative fit over the course of time?

Now the crux of Christianity is the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. From the very beginning of the religion it is mentioned by Paul that "This whole lifestyle is worthless if Christ never actually rose." Now Paul is a major influence of the Bible, but he only ever saw Christ in a vision. He never saw whether or not Christ actually rose from the dead. In regards to other religions, not many religions have a valid narrative. They tend to focus on explanations, and although their explanations could possibly be valid still. It seems science offers a better way of explaining things, but science philosophically cannot validate itself because of its method. Hence why the strongest claims of science are always in theory, but of course that theory is very well grounded in reason and as a result very probable.

There are a couple of religions that do offer counter narratives and as well there are many philosophies that wish to give narratives to life. Ultimately one narrative will be the most true. I reason in the ways of thought as Pascal but I flip the focus from fear to hope. I don't wager based on what I am most afraid of being true. I wager baed on what I am most hopeful of being true. I am extremely hopeful in the narrative of Christ because I experience it to be the most beautiful. It's truth hinges on the reality of his resurrection. We'll never know that in this life, but I wager it is true because of my hope. If you were actually looking for an answer to this question, I hope this suffices.

 

[Goodgirlryeo101]

@angelicisight All these biblical talks are not my thing as I know that all that talk is not real. It's all made up and there is no hell, God or heaven all those things don't exist …

 

[angelicisight]

Saying suicide is a sin wasn't introduced into the Christian religion until 6 A.D.
It also never once mentions in the Bible that suicide is a sin.
The word Hell is also an old English word that means "underground" as opposed to a place of eternal burning etc.
Religions are a man-made concept.

Why are you concerned with what is "sinful" if sin is man-made? If sin is man-made, sin is fundamentally unreasonable. Man has no knowledge of good and evil in our nature. Our nature is only concerned with furthering our survival. Whether God created man or man created god, concepts of the supernatural are not real to our reality. They may have societal benefit, but they are not real. Therefore, it stands to reason sin should not be a concern to you if you think supernatural existence has no real grounding anywhere, which would be the case if religion is man-made. Just these talking points don't fit with each other. It's a contradictory focus, so I don't know how to engage.

@angelicisight All these biblical talks are not my thing as I know that all that talk is not real. It's all made up and there is no hell, God or heaven all those things don't exist …

Well I think it's interesting because we know how to interact with reality in more than just one way. Definitely one way to know reality is through a recognition of existence. What actually exists pretty much all semblance of authority. Therefore if Heaven Hell etc. does not exist, it holds no power. It's effectively meaningless.

However we also interact with reality by recognition of reason. Of course hopefully we all know there is much reason for religion to have existed. Historically speaking it is a very powerful force in society. It has had reason to be created, but that doesn't mean that supernatural reality exists because society exists.

I don't care about whether or not these things exist or not. They are inconsequential to me because I am hooked on the third recognition of reality which is experience. I understand where you are coming. I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from. It's sad to see people feeling the need to interject their voice effectively invalidating my experiences with their assertions of existence like I should expect their assertions to matter to me just like I do not expect my assertions to matter to you. In fact, I have made no assertions. I am only going along with my experience. That's all.

Anyways, I do feel you at least have sort of held an authentic focus in things, so I appreciate that. I don't like feeling like I am being mentioned or commented on without my presence being acknowledged or my presence not being the genuine focus. I really don't like that, so I appreciate you haven't done that. Thank you.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Hello and welcome to SS. I have to listen to stuff to get to sleep also. It takes my mind off things and drowns out my noisy neighbours. It's generally rain sounds for me though!

Hmm- but I suppose if you'd grown up in a world like The Elder Scrolls- that would seem normal to you to worship multiple Gods. Put it this way- if you were born in Iraq with Muslim parents- do you think you would have become a Christian? Say- no one had told you about the bible, Jesus and God- do you suppose you still would have found 'him' somehow? (If you believe he is in fact a he.) Honestly- I don't know too much about religion... seems like Muslims might worship the same God... Maybe substitute another country where a different religion and God dominate!... If you lived 1000's of years ago and in a different country- what are the chances you wouldn't be following a different religion? Maybe a pagan religion? How do you know which one is 'right'? Do you research and see which one feels right? Or- is it what you've grown up with? I'm assuming your parents are also Christian?

I've got nothing against people who believe. I think it can be a great source of strength- it clearly is for you. Personally, I have problems with major religions but that's my own feeling. Some of my family are Christians. I have a spiritual leaning but- as I say, I'm not keen on orthodox religion. I'd actually love to be an aetheist! I can't shake the doubt/fear that there may actually be something though- since we don't know for sure either way...

A question for you though- if you don't find it too cheeky! So- do you not believe that we evolved from monkeys? May I ask what your feelings are about dinosaurs? They supposedly roamed the earth for 165 million years. (Compared to our 7 million.) Or- do you refute those claims? Were the dinosaurs religious do you think? Why do you suppose God got rid of them?

 

[angelicisight]

Hello and welcome to SS. I have to listen to stuff to get to sleep also. It takes my mind off things and drowns out my noisy neighbours. It's generally rain sounds for me though!

Hmm- but I suppose if you'd grown up in a world like The Elder Scrolls- that would seem normal to you to worship multiple Gods. Put it this way- if you were born in Iraq with Muslim parents- do you think you would have become a Christian? Say- no one had told you about the bible, Jesus and God- do you suppose you still would have found 'him' somehow? (If you believe he is in fact a he.) Honestly- I don't know too much about religion... seems like Muslims might worship the same God... Maybe substitute another country where a different religion and God dominate!... If you lived 1000's of years ago and in a different country- what are the chances you wouldn't be following a different religion? Maybe a pagan religion? How do you know which one is 'right'? Do you research and see which one feels right? Or- is it what you've grown up with? I'm assuming your parents are also Christian?

I've got nothing against people who believe. I think it can be a great source of strength- it clearly is for you. Personally, I have problems with major religions but that's my own feeling. Some of my family are Christians. I have a spiritual leaning but- as I say, I'm not keen on orthodox religion. I'd actually love to be an aetheist! I can't shake the doubt/fear that there may actually be something though- since we don't know for sure either way...

A question for you though- if you don't find it too cheeky! So- do you not believe that we evolved from monkeys? May I ask what your feelings are about dinosaurs? They supposedly roamed the earth for 165 million years. (Compared to our 7 million.) Or- do you refute those claims? Were the dinosaurs religious do you think? Why do you suppose God got rid of them?

Okay, so it seems like there is two things here from my understanding. First is to know about me personally and second is to know how my understanding of Christianity fits into scientific understanding. I'll start with me first.

I grew up with very wealthy parents. My mother was a doctor, and my dad was a high up employee for Oracle. As a result, my parents didn't have the time to take care of me. I was the youngest of five, and so we had a caretaker, Ella. I had a really hard time fitting into my family when I was very young. I was and still am very emotional. My family would constantly treat me like I was pathetic for being that way, but Ella had compassion on me. I loved her, and she loved me as well. Whenever I got the chance, I would stay over at her apartment on the weekends because I was only ever happy with her. When I was 5 or 6, my mom decided to stop working for awhile and fire Ella. This was very hard for me to adjust to.

You want to know why I am a Christian? It is because of Ella. It's not because I am from America. It's not because my parents were Christians. My parents tried to get me baptized when I was in middle school, and I essentially refused. I did not want to be a part of what they believed. It wasn't like I was rebelling against them by refusing, I just genuinely did not feel I believed the same things they did, and I wasn't ready to commit to anything.

I forgot about Ella after she was fired. The transition to life without her was so difficult, than I just sort of lost my memory. I only knew what my parents told me, but in high school I remembered her again. It was very difficult for me to go through those memories again, but I do think a part of me never forgot them.

In middle school, I was dealing with a lot of bad feelings. I tried to find some understanding of God to deal with those feelings. I did ask my parents to go to a Christian high school to try and learn more, so this was my plan. Before this happened, my brother was going to Haiti because the major earthquake there occurred. He became fearful of his grades, so I went instead.

Haiti changed my life. The experience there was what I wanted. It's what I wanted to live for. I got to care about other people the way I felt Ella cared about me. That was everything.

So why Christianity? Well I think it strongly fits with historical understanding. I think it's most reasonable. I think the life of Jesus was too remarkable. I think the criticisms of his historical authenticity are a little too skeptical given how much a verified nobody he actually was. He was not some powerful person and yet he attained powerful influence even after his crucifixion where most cult leaders don't have that. It's not like he established Christianity in his life where the community could thrive. No it got established by his death afterwards which is simply unprecedented. Plus it goes along extremely well with Judaism. I mean Isaiah is ridiculous with what it predicted, and with the Dead Sea Scrolls we know Isaiah was before Jesus. Again the skepticism against Jesus is just unfairly strong in my mind given the nature of who he was historically, so it's valid to me that he was real and he was remarkable, and the content of he said fits.

Okay but why Christianity? It's the love. It's really just that. simple for me. Like I appreciate my parents for teaching me how to think in an educated manner, but Ella taught me how to feel, and I live by my feelings. I live for the love. Nowhere can you feel love like you do in the story of Christ. I want that. It's everything, and yes it is very abusive. I've been imprisoned and ostracized by people that say they are Christians. I have been lied against and genuinely have suffered, but Christ is just that amazing to me. He's worth it.

And what of the Genesis narrative? Well I studied this maybe a couple years ago. First off, I don't feel it is necessary to study the narrative because of Proverbs. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter. It is the glory of kings to seek a matter out." We can expect it is consistent with God to hide from us what he does. Therefore that the Genesis narrative doesn't tell the full story is whatever to me, but I studied it nonetheless.

A couple things to note about the Genesis narrative. The story tells itself two times in a row, and it actually changes the details the story the second time it tells it. So chapter 1, God creates the world. Chapter 2, God creates the world, but this time he does it differently???? What changes in the narrative by the way? When man was created. Story 1, man is created on the sixth day, story 2, man is existing on like the 4th day or something. Why? Well it is because the focus changes from God's relationship with creation to God's relationship with man.

Let's start with God's relationship with creation. First the six day narrative lines up very interestingly with how we know the earth was made. What is most interesting to me is that God creates birds and large creatures of the sea first. Science recently recognized dinosaurs are actually really close to birds. Then the next day he creates livestock and all that. So I didn't do too much of a critical line up, but it is interesting to see it does line up a little. It's just concealed, and I think it's the glory of kings to try and uncover what God concealed from us.

Okay now here's the interesting thing with man. This was really fascinating to me. Why when the focus shifts to man does man start to exist on another day? Well here's why I think. I think the Garden of Eden was a place where man, angels, and all of things had influenced of the design of earth. It was this place where our genetic compounds and the compounds of all living creatures where being sorted. It's a very elusive concept, but eventually man gets kicked out of there. Why? Because he progresses with the design of man until he includes in man an understanding of good and evil. At that point, God kicks man out of Eden into the body he created for himself. That's what I think happened.

Okay but here's a weird thing, man created all of man, but then he enters into the body of one man? What of the others? Well I think this is where the floods come in. God essentially wipes out man until he is replaced with men that have the spirit of Adam in them. That's my understanding of what happened at least.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Okay, so it seems like there is two things here from my understanding. First is to know about me personally and second is to know how my understanding of Christianity fits into scientific understanding. I'll start with me first.

I grew up with very wealthy parents. My mother was a doctor, and my dad was a high up employee for Oracle. As a result, my parents didn't have the time to take care of me. I was the youngest of five, and so we had a caretaker, Ella. I had a really hard time fitting into my family when I was very young. I was and still am very emotional. My family would constantly treat me like I was pathetic for being that way, but Ella had compassion on me. I loved her, and she loved me as well. Whenever I got the chance, I would stay over at her apartment on the weekends because I was only ever happy with her. When I was 5 or 6, my mom decided to stop working for awhile and fire Ella. This was very hard for me to adjust to.

You want to know why I am a Christian? It is because of Ella. It's not because I am from America. It's not because my parents were Christians. My parents tried to get me baptized when I was in middle school, and I essentially refused. I did not want to be a part of what they believed. It wasn't like I was rebelling against them by refusing, I just genuinely did not feel I believed the same things they did, and I wasn't ready to commit to anything.

I forgot about Ella after she was fired. The transition to life without her was so difficult, than I just sort of lost my memory. I only knew what my parents told me, but in high school I remembered her again. It was very difficult for me to go through those memories again, but I do think a part of me never forgot them.

In middle school, I was dealing with a lot of bad feelings. I tried to find some understanding of God to deal with those feelings. I did ask my parents to go to a Christian high school to try and learn more, so this was my plan. Before this happened, my brother was going to Haiti because the major earthquake there occurred. He became fearful of his grades, so I went instead.

Haiti changed my life. The experience there was what I wanted. It's what I wanted to live for. I got to care about other people the way I felt Ella cared about me. That was everything.

So why Christianity? Well I think it strongly fits with historical understanding. I think it's most reasonable. I think the life of Jesus was too remarkable. I think the criticisms of his historical authenticity are a little too skeptical given how much a verified nobody he actually was. He was not some powerful person and yet he attained powerful influence even after his crucifixion where most cult leaders don't have that. It's not like he established Christianity in his life where the community could thrive. No it got established by his death afterwards which is simply unprecedented. Plus it goes along extremely well with Judaism. I mean Isaiah is ridiculous with what it predicted, and with the Dead Sea Scrolls we know Isaiah was before Jesus. Again the skepticism against Jesus is just unfairly strong in my mind given the nature of who he was historically, so it's valid to me that he was real and he was remarkable, and the content of he said fits.

Okay but why Christianity? It's the love. It's really just that. simple for me. Like I appreciate my parents for teaching me how to think in an educated manner, but Ella taught me how to feel, and I live by my feelings. I live for the love. Nowhere can you feel love like you do in the story of Christ. I want that. It's everything, and yes it is very abusive. I've been imprisoned and ostracized by people that say they are Christians. I have been lied against and genuinely have suffered, but Christ is just that amazing to me. He's worth it.

And what of the Genesis narrative? Well I studied this maybe a couple years ago. First off, I don't feel it is necessary to study the narrative because of Proverbs. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter. It is the glory of kings to seek a matter out." We can expect it is consistent with God to hide from us what he does. Therefore that the Genesis narrative doesn't tell the full story is whatever to me, but I studied it nonetheless.

A couple things to note about the Genesis narrative. The story tells itself two times in a row, and it actually changes the details the story the second time it tells it. So chapter 1, God creates the world. Chapter 2, God creates the world, but this time he does it differently???? What changes in the narrative by the way? When man was created. Story 1, man is created on the sixth day, story 2, man is existing on like the 4th day or something. Why? Well it is because the focus changes from God's relationship with creation to God's relationship with man.

Let's start with God's relationship with creation. First the six day narrative lines up very interestingly with how we know the earth was made. What is most interesting to me is that God creates birds and large creatures of the sea first. Science recently recognized dinosaurs are actually really close to birds. Then the next day he creates livestock and all that. So I didn't do too much of a critical line up, but it is interesting to see it does line up a little. It's just concealed, and I think it's the glory of kings to try and uncover what God concealed from us.

Okay now here's the interesting thing with man. This was really fascinating to me. Why when the focus shifts to man does man start to exist on another day? Well here's why I think. I think the Garden of Eden was a place where man, angels, and all of things had influenced of the design of earth. It was this place where our genetic compounds and the compounds of all living creatures where being sorted. It's a very elusive concept, but eventually man gets kicked out of there. Why? Because he progresses with the design of man until he includes in man an understanding of good and evil. At that point, God kicks man out of Eden into the body he created for himself. That's what I think happened.

Okay but here's a weird thing, man created all of man, but then he enters into the body of one man? What of the others? Well I think this is where the floods come in. God essentially wipes out man until he is replaced with men that have the spirit of Adam in them. That's my understanding of what happened at least.

This was really fascinating- thank you for taking the time to reply. I really admire how well read you are and you've clearly lived a very interesting life. Haiti sounds like it was a wonderful experience.

I'm sorry you've had such tough times too. I'm sure it was incredibly difficult to lose Ella. I lost quite a few close family members in early childhood- they died- so I know how grief affects and stays with us. Yes- I can see the connection with your faith, love, Ella and your time in Haiti.

I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if Jesus did exist and that he was an all around nice guy. I suppose it's just whether he was the son of God. He's always sounded nicer than God to me! Although- I suppose they are one and the same. (If I have that right?)

I suppose the problem I have with orthodox religions is that they ARE quit often documented later by the hand of man- rather than God. Plus- they continue to be interpretated and even changed by man. They are an interpretation- a memory. What troubles me most is that I imagine it would only be the very wealthy classes that would be scribes. (Again- if I have that right?) And they have reason to interpret things so that they benefit them.

While- yes- I would agree with many of the principles in religion- don't go around killing one another, don't steal from one other, don't sleep around, don't have sex with animals, be kind to one another. Basically- all good. I also think that it's fascinating that religious laws mirror civil laws. They kind of reinforce them- so- if you're not scared of punishment in this life- prison- perhaps hell will put you off offending!

I feel like religious dogma changes according to the age and needs to control the masses. So- suicide for example... Correct me if I'm wrong but there are examples in the bible of people commiting suicide- yet it's not ABSOLUTELY clear that it would be considered a sin. As far as I understand- it's more the interpretation that it falls under the sin of murder.

I once saw a YouTube video that I have tried to find again multiple times but failed. Anyhow- it suggested that this notion of suicide as sinful appeared at a certain point in time- and for a very specific reason. At the time, life was incredibly tough for the peasants working in the fields. They would be told though- that their reward would come in heaven- so- naturally- they started to kill themselves in droves to cut out all the suffering down here on earth. This video explained that it was in reaction to this that it was then preached that suicide was in fact sinful- and would send them straight to hell. Of course- I don't know whether this is true- I haven't had much success trying to Google it again. Still- it makes a lot of sense.

I suppose I just don't like it when religious interpretations are used to either control people or worse- incite them to do terrible things- like go to war. Of course- none of that has anything to do with God- it's man manipulating things- but that's just it- how can you be sure what comes from God and what has been tweaked by scholars of the day to suit their own ends?

Of course- interestingly it works in the reverse too. To me- religion- like everything else in this world is a business- they need consumers. So- if we take religions that are traditionally very strict like Roman Catholicism- people living these days may find it too strict- no contraception, no homosexuality (that's correct isn't it?) When they feel isolated and persecuted- they abandon their faith. The Church can only cope with so many of it's congregation leaving- so- it HAS to adapt- it HAS to start becoming watered down- well- maybe it's ok if you're gay... If these truly are God's laws and wishes though- how can they be changed or watered down?

All that said though- I love your interpretation of religion and God. I think it is the very best interpretation you could and should have. It's clear that you are full of love and that's a beautiful state to be in. Thank you for sharing your insights.

 

[angelicisight]

This was really fascinating- thank you for taking the time to reply. I really admire how well read you are and you've clearly lived a very interesting life. Haiti sounds like it was a wonderful experience.

I'm sorry you've had such tough times too. I'm sure it was incredibly difficult to lose Ella. I lost quite a few close family members in early childhood- they died- so I know how grief affects and stays with us. Yes- I can see the connection with your faith, love, Ella and your time in Haiti.

I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if Jesus did exist and that he was an all around nice guy. I suppose it's just whether he was the son of God. He's always sounded nicer than God to me! Although- I suppose they are one and the same. (If I have that right?)

I suppose the problem I have with orthodox religions is that they ARE quit often documented later by the hand of man- rather than God. Plus- they continue to be interpretated and even changed by man. They are an interpretation- a memory. What troubles me most is that I imagine it would only be the very wealthy classes that would be scribes. (Again- if I have that right?) And they have reason to interpret things so that they benefit them.

While- yes- I would agree with many of the principles in religion- don't go around killing one another, don't steal from one other, don't sleep around, don't have sex with animals, be kind to one another. Basically- all good. I also think that it's fascinating that religious laws mirror civil laws. They kind of reinforce them- so- if you're not scared of punishment in this life- prison- perhaps hell will put you off offending!

I feel like religious dogma changes according to the age and needs to control the masses. So- suicide for example... Correct me if I'm wrong but there are examples in the bible of people commiting suicide- yet it's not ABSOLUTELY clear that it would be considered a sin. As far as I understand- it's more the interpretation that it falls under the sin of murder.

I once saw a YouTube video that I have tried to find again multiple times but failed. Anyhow- it suggested that this notion of suicide as sinful appeared at a certain point in time- and for a very specific reason. At the time, life was incredibly tough for the peasants working in the fields. They would be told though- that their reward would come in heaven- so- naturally- they started to kill themselves in droves to cut out all the suffering down here on earth. This video explained that it was in reaction to this that it was then preached that suicide was in fact sinful- and would send them straight to hell. Of course- I don't know whether this is true- I haven't had much success trying to Google it again. Still- it makes a lot of sense.

I suppose I just don't like it when religious interpretations are used to either control people or worse- incite them to do terrible things- like go to war. Of course- none of that has anything to do with God- it's man manipulating things- but that's just it- how can you be sure what comes from God and what has been tweaked by scholars of the day to suit their own ends?

Of course- interestingly it works in the reverse too. To me- religion- like everything else in this world is a business- they need consumers. So- if we take religions that are traditionally very strict like Roman Catholicism- people living these days may find it too strict- no contraception, no homosexuality (that's correct isn't it?) When they feel isolated and persecuted- they abandon their faith. The Church can only cope with so many of it's congregation leaving- so- it HAS to adapt- it HAS to start becoming watered down- well- maybe it's ok if you're gay... If these truly are God's laws and wishes though- how can they be changed or watered down?

All that said though- I love your interpretation of religion and God. I think it is the very best interpretation you could and should have. It's clear that you are full of love and that's a beautiful state to be in. Thank you for sharing your insights.

I'm sorry you caught me in a very emotional moment, so I cannot respond fully, but I must respond to the suicide being a sin. I can't comment on suicide, but I can comment on drug addiction because I wrestled with this for awhile.

I speak as a human here not as a scholar. I am too emotional to give a scholarly response, but I know drug addiction is wrong. You can't abandon your family. You can't leave your children without a father. You can hurt the one who has bore your children. Drug addiction is wrong.

I know Jeremy was addicted to heroine, but he was trying to get his life better. He was trying. He was just sick. I knew his four children. I helped take care of the children for seven years in that community. I even paid for one of Jeremy's children to go to camp. They really liked me a lot. Especially the two middle ones.

The church took a vacation right as Jeremy was starting to get his life together. He was trying to be a good father, and the men's group was his means of support. They took a vacation. He relapsed and overdosed while without support leaving his family and children behind. This changed everything for me. "Heat Waves", every time I listen to that song, I think of him. It will always hurt me, and I wrestled for a long time about where he was going to go.

I came to this conclusion. I felt Jeremy was angry with the group taking a break. I texted him, and I felt his anger that they were leaving. It was wrong for them to do this. There was no excuse. He was right to feel outraged. How much does that outrage fuel a relapse? I think it is very probable that it sent him very far down a bad way.

Should he have died for this reason, though he died in sin, I do not think he died without grace. I think I will see him again.

When I wrote of this. I wrote "Jeremy I think I will see you again soon." I wrote an argument that outrage would afford him reason for grace in his situation, and so I argued I would see him again soon. It was a very sad argument to make. My pastor saw this. Took it to the police and said I was suicidal locking me up. I was not suicidal. He was lying.

He was not my pastor at that point either. I was already kicked out of the church. Now who was most in sin according to the law? Surely Jeremy was most in sin, but who can we most expect grace to be given? You probably love Jesus because you know him for his grace. You do not know his grace was meant to lead people to repentance. When, if, he comes back in judgment you will know this side of him. You may not like him then, but I think Jesus has far more reason to give grace to Jeremy than my pastor.

Trying to understand the ways of righteousness by the law doesn't work. That's why Jesus came. We understand it by the narrative of our life therefore the Bible says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith.

I am too caught up in what I feel now to make more of a point on this. Sorry, but hopefully the response was sufficient.

This was really fascinating- thank you for taking the time to reply. I really admire how well read you are and you've clearly lived a very interesting life. Haiti sounds like it was a wonderful experience.

I'm sorry you've had such tough times too. I'm sure it was incredibly difficult to lose Ella. I lost quite a few close family members in early childhood- they died- so I know how grief affects and stays with us. Yes- I can see the connection with your faith, love, Ella and your time in Haiti.

I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if Jesus did exist and that he was an all around nice guy. I suppose it's just whether he was the son of God. He's always sounded nicer than God to me! Although- I suppose they are one and the same. (If I have that right?)

I suppose the problem I have with orthodox religions is that they ARE quit often documented later by the hand of man- rather than God. Plus- they continue to be interpretated and even changed by man. They are an interpretation- a memory. What troubles me most is that I imagine it would only be the very wealthy classes that would be scribes. (Again- if I have that right?) And they have reason to interpret things so that they benefit them.

While- yes- I would agree with many of the principles in religion- don't go around killing one another, don't steal from one other, don't sleep around, don't have sex with animals, be kind to one another. Basically- all good. I also think that it's fascinating that religious laws mirror civil laws. They kind of reinforce them- so- if you're not scared of punishment in this life- prison- perhaps hell will put you off offending!

I feel like religious dogma changes according to the age and needs to control the masses. So- suicide for example... Correct me if I'm wrong but there are examples in the bible of people commiting suicide- yet it's not ABSOLUTELY clear that it would be considered a sin. As far as I understand- it's more the interpretation that it falls under the sin of murder.

I once saw a YouTube video that I have tried to find again multiple times but failed. Anyhow- it suggested that this notion of suicide as sinful appeared at a certain point in time- and for a very specific reason. At the time, life was incredibly tough for the peasants working in the fields. They would be told though- that their reward would come in heaven- so- naturally- they started to kill themselves in droves to cut out all the suffering down here on earth. This video explained that it was in reaction to this that it was then preached that suicide was in fact sinful- and would send them straight to hell. Of course- I don't know whether this is true- I haven't had much success trying to Google it again. Still- it makes a lot of sense.

I suppose I just don't like it when religious interpretations are used to either control people or worse- incite them to do terrible things- like go to war. Of course- none of that has anything to do with God- it's man manipulating things- but that's just it- how can you be sure what comes from God and what has been tweaked by scholars of the day to suit their own ends?

Of course- interestingly it works in the reverse too. To me- religion- like everything else in this world is a business- they need consumers. So- if we take religions that are traditionally very strict like Roman Catholicism- people living these days may find it too strict- no contraception, no homosexuality (that's correct isn't it?) When they feel isolated and persecuted- they abandon their faith. The Church can only cope with so many of it's congregation leaving- so- it HAS to adapt- it HAS to start becoming watered down- well- maybe it's ok if you're gay... If these truly are God's laws and wishes though- how can they be changed or watered down?

All that said though- I love your interpretation of religion and God. I think it is the very best interpretation you could and should have. It's clear that you are full of love and that's a beautiful state to be in. Thank you for sharing your insights.

Okay, I calmed down. Let's do an actual response. Just caught me at a bad time.

Jesus, God, Holy Spirit. Okay this is just representations of God in a manner that can be comprehended. The Holy Spirit is the experience of God. The Father is his authority, and Jesus is his reason. Now as mentioned, there is reason for grace according to the narrative. Jesus experienced the life and man, he took on the weight of sin, and he determined after the experience there was reason for grace. Of course he knew there was reason before he experienced it, but in order for that reason to be justified, a just witness needed to be present. Jesus is that witness, and so when it is said "Depart from me, I never knew you." Meaning some take on a sense of meaning Jesus never knew, and so he will not forgive them.

Is Jesus more likable than the Father? That depends on how you feel about authority, but you also don't know Jesus like you know authority. Ask yourself how much you like judgment as I've already mentioned to know whether or not you like him. Jesus gave many judgments in his teaching that are profoundly difficult, but he only enforced grace. He enforced no judgments he made.

A good study of how Jesus related to the Father. Look at how he compares himself. You see the Father does all things with reason, and will not act unreasonably. No reasonable things are done without authority. And the experience of that all is the Holy Spirit. It's a very interesting thing, but it definitely can be understood in a modern way with concepts instead of people as a comparative representation.

Another look at suicide. Job didn't take his own life. Jesus didn't let his suffering pass from him though he desired it, he did not have the authority, and the Father would not permit him to escape it. Suicide is wrong, but we are not judged according to right and wrong. We are judged by reason, and this is another matter altogether. What is the name of Jesus??? All things done in my name, all people must be saved by my name? The name of Jesus is "logos". That is Greek for reason. We are judged by reason, and the Bible lays out the full reason of God according to the narrative.

Who wrote the narrative? Was it the rich? Was it the powerful? Who has the most power? If the God was real, would he have reason to care whose hands touched the story he wants to tell us? Perhaps he has a little reason to care, but he doesn't have much reason because he is more powerful than any human hand he uses to write for him. Therefore, it is not as though the rich have power to corrupt his narrative, but the Bible does say God will allow Satan to reign over the earth for two and a half times before the time for final judgment comes meaning though the narrative of God may be protected, the ways of the Earth and man are certainly open to corruption by way of lies and deceit in supernatural fashion.

Does Christian dogma change over time? Absolutely. Better than asking why does it change, ask when it will stop changing? You have to see Revelations to know when the dogma stops changing. First the end is going to be revealed by 144,000 people rising up that are pure and never told a lie. They will sing a song no one else can sing. Then in the midst of this two great witnesses are going to rise. They will speak with authority and power. They will give the final dogma of Christianity. They have the last and true interpretation, but until those 144,000 people come, those two great witnesses will not rise up. We are not anywhere close to that in the narrative, so we can expect the dogma to change.

However this is not a change of what is true. It's a change of what is understood. I understand what is pure. I don't understand how not to lie. I don't understand how to sing in spiritual fashion though maybe I know how to dance. I don't know how to be pure like the standard given. There is a lot of work yet to be done, and it will not happen in my life I don't think, but my understanding is only so sure.

Do the powerful wish to control religion? Of course, but can they? I don't think so. I think they just make better lawyers, so they can know how to take advantage of our current understanding in a way that benefits them. However they can't determine with what people understand. They can only work with what we know, and if we know they are wrong, the powerless will rebel against them rendering them without control.

Therefore, yes the powerful are controlling by the law, but understanding controls them. They can't make an understanding up. You don't get rich and powerful that way.

Okay well I think I am okay with this response.

I guess is religion becoming watered down? We are just becoming more connected. We learn justification as it applies to our world. However, we have become connected to everyone's world. Now things become a lot more complicated to justify and restrictions previously necessary are now needed to be backed in more abstract form.

Now I think that's it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm sorry you caught me in a very emotional moment, so I cannot respond fully, but I must respond to the suicide being a sin. I can't comment on suicide, but I can comment on drug addiction because I wrestled with this for awhile.

I speak as a human here not as a scholar. I am too emotional to give a scholarly response, but I know drug addiction is wrong. You can't abandon your family. You can't leave your children without a father. You can hurt the one who has bore your children. Drug addiction is wrong.

I know Jeremy was addicted to heroine, but he was trying to get his life better. He was trying. He was just sick. I knew his four children. I helped take care of the children for seven years in that community. I even paid for one of Jeremy's children to go to camp. They really liked me a lot. Especially the two middle ones.

The church took a vacation right as Jeremy was starting to get his life together. He was trying to be a good father, and the men's group was his means of support. They took a vacation. He relapsed and overdosed while without support leaving his family and children behind. This changed everything for me. "Heat Waves", every time I listen to that song, I think of him. It will always hurt me, and I wrestled for a long time about where he was going to go.

I came to this conclusion. I felt Jeremy was angry with the group taking a break. I texted him, and I felt his anger that they were leaving. It was wrong for them to do this. There was no excuse. He was right to feel outraged. How much does that outrage fuel a relapse? I think it is very probable that it sent him very far down a bad way.

Should he have died for this reason, though he died in sin, I do not think he died without grace. I think I will see him again.

When I wrote of this. I wrote "Jeremy I think I will see you again soon." I wrote an argument that outrage would afford him reason for grace in his situation, and so I argued I would see him again soon. It was a very sad argument to make. My pastor saw this. Took it to the police and said I was suicidal locking me up. I was not suicidal. He was lying.

He was not my pastor at that point either. I was already kicked out of the church. Now who was most in sin according to the law? Surely Jeremy was most in sin, but who can we most expect grace to be given? You probably love Jesus because you know him for his grace. You do not know his grace was meant to lead people to repentance. When, if, he comes back in judgment you will know this side of him. You may not like him then, but I think Jesus has far more reason to give grace to Jeremy than my pastor.

Trying to understand the ways of righteousness by the law doesn't work. That's why Jesus came. We understand it by the narrative of our life therefore the Bible says the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith.

I am too caught up in what I feel now to make more of a point on this. Sorry, but hopefully the response was sufficient.

It's interesting- yes. I feel like you have emotional knowledge- or- faith I suppose- which I'm sure is the best and most sincere of all.

There's never any need to appologise here- that's partly why I like it so much. People are generally very understanding. We all know we have busy lives and are struggling with different things. We just respond when we can with what we can.

I hope you find it a comfort to be here- as lots of us do. To be honest, I expect the majority of people are aetheists here. In some cases- religion tends to trigger people quit a bit but people are kind to each (in my experience.) We can't always understand one another but at least we try!

 

[angelicisight]

It's interesting- yes. I feel like you have emotional knowledge- or- faith I suppose- which I'm sure is the best and most sincere of all.

There's never any need to appologise here- that's partly why I like it so much. People are generally very understanding. We all know we have busy lives and are struggling with different things. We just respond when we can with what we can.

I hope you find it a comfort to be here- as lots of us do. To be honest, I expect the majority of people are aetheists here. In some cases- religion tends to trigger people quit a bit but people are kind to each (in my experience.) We can't always understand one another but at least we try!

I don't know. My parents had no emotional understanding of religion, but they have always been honest people. They were also very educated, and you can't be educated by emotion. You have to convert the emotion to reason.

I think people are triggered by education. Everyone says they love science, but I have seen "science believers" in school. They loved science but they certainly found all manners of issue with their teachers. Science doesn't teach us to believe anything, but an ignorant understanding of science can allow for a sense of belief to be found from it. Some bad faith scientists encourage this because it empowers them, but most are vocal that science can give no commentary to what is not natural.

I just experienced brokenness, and maybe that is what you like. Ella lived in a very poor part of town. She made me experience things that my parents never did. My mom experienced a lot of evil growing up, and she struggled with this even when I was around. She didn't know brokenness though. Neither of my parents had much sense of humanity, but they did try to learn a lot from me. They were always honest and although some things they could not understand, they cared. They didn't care because I was their son. They cared if they thought I was right. When I seemed wrong in their eyes, they would want nothing to do with me. I am grateful for them though I learned a lot apart from them.

Well that's it again. The best knowledge is the one that knows how to sing. That's what I would love to dedicate my life towards. I think I know how to dance a little, but I don't know how to sing. I would love my life to encourage the next generation to develop vision for this. I think we have maybe a thousand years to learn.