Logic

[Deleted member 847]

There is no evidence of anything eternal. An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. What we do know is that big bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago. The big bang was the expansion of space and time, so it is a meaningless question to ask what happened "before" the big bang.

There are only two options
1. A universe out of nothing
2. A universe out of something that didn't came out of nothing, therefore you can call it eternal in that sense.
Which one makes more sense? The first one is magic.

 

[satou]

You're made out of materials that came from that eternal initial point, therefore you are that point.

Substance is not the same as identity.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Substance is not the same as identity.

Do you believe that consciousness is the product of matter like me or do you believe it is fundamental?

 

[RM5998]

You're made out of materials that came from that eternal initial point, therefore you are that point. I'm not talking about consciousness. Listen to Alan Watts' videos on youtube

If you mean that I am connected to that point (which isn't eternal - again, the point is that it makes no sense to speak of events before the Big Bang in relation to events after it), then yes, I am. If you're referring to what the idea of being the progenitor of the universe due to my perception of it defining everything in my sphere of knowledge and awareness, then I'd say that it's a moot point to discuss that issue.

There are only two options
1. A universe out of nothing
2. A universe out of something that didn't came out of nothing, therefore you can call it eternal in that sense.
Which one makes more sense? The first one is magic.

And this is the problem with popular understanding of the Big Bang.

The point of the Big Bang is to say that we cannot speak of a 'before'. That's why it's a causal concept first and foremost - speaking of events before the Big Bang doesn't make sense.

 

[Rollo]

Although I must point out that there is a very obvious flaw in this logic, and that is that if sentience must eventually exist, there exists infinity. We don't know for a fact infinity exists.

Where's the flaw though? Your logic provides that self exists infinitely. So same logic then provides that infinity exists. There's no such thing as 'infinity' really, it's only a word, there can only be infinite something.

 

[Deleted member 847]

If you mean that I am connected to that point (which isn't eternal - again, the point is that it makes no sense to speak of events before the Big Bang in relation to events after it), then yes, I am. If you're referring to what the idea of being the progenitor of the universe due to my perception of it defining everything in my sphere of knowledge and awareness, then I'd say that it's a moot point to discuss that issue.



And this is the problem with popular understanding of the Big Bang.

The point of the Big Bang is to say that we cannot speak of a 'before'. That's why it's a causal concept first and foremost - speaking of events before the Big Bang doesn't make sense.

My second post had nothing to do with the big bang. I don't believe the initial point of everything that exists now was the big bang subatomic particle because that would challange my belief in the multiverse hypothesis.

 

[satou]

Do you believe that consciousness is the product of matter like me or do you believe it is fundamental?

I don't think we should and can reduce human individuals to brain/body or consciousness (I do not believe in souls or spirits), but I prefer to consider humans in a more holistic context (in other words, as active beings inseparable from their environment). I fail to see why the ultimate origin of matter is of any importance at all.

 

[DeathBecomesMe]

There is no evidence of anything eternal. An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. What we do know is that big bang occurred 13.7 billion years ago. The big bang was the expansion of space and time, so it is a meaningless question to ask what happened "before" the big bang.

Just how authentic is modern day 'science' and it's subsequent claims. The same people that introduced and published the Big Bang and its accompanying data, also lie and tell us that we've been to the moon and that space travel is possible. And Ina and on, there are many more lies. No species can leave Earth. Now, I've always been agnostic, but the fact is that whatever 'God' is/was, the underlying physics and biology of Earth and probably all planets that can support life, do not allow its inhabitants to leave. Unless there's a way to survive traveling through the Van Allen radiation belt, which as far as I know is impossible. Interplanetary travel is a hoax, just like the moon landings. Filmed in a Hollywood studio under the guidance of Stanley Kubrick.

I subscribe to a belief that the universe is infinite, and that it has always existed with no beginning. Certainly no singularity Big Bang origin. I do though enjoy Philipp Mainlanders hypothesis that God is dead, even if it isn't in total agreement with my beliefs.

 

[RM5998]

My second post had nothing to do with the big bang. I don't believe the initial point of everything that exists now was the big bang subatomic particle because that would challange my belief in the multiverse hypothesis.

The Big Bang isn't a subatomic particle, it's a name for an event at a certain point in time. What I'm trying to say is that it's pointless to try to look beyond the Big Bang when physics (which is probably the most important context we have to observe the universe) breaks down there.

 

[Deleted member 847]

The Big Bang isn't a subatomic particle, it's a name for an event at a certain point in time. What I'm trying to say is that it's pointless to try to look beyond the Big Bang when physics (which is probably the most important context we have to observe the universe) breaks down there.

It's an event that emerged from a particle and here's where my lack of English skills show off.

 

[RM5998]

I subscribe to a belief that the universe is infinite, and that it has always existed with no beginning. Certainly no singularity Big Bang origin.

Well, about that... the confirmation for that was found by amateur astronomers who pointed a radio telescope at the sky. I'd suggest reading about this.

 

[Rollo]

I fail to see why the ultimate origin of matter is of any importance at all.

Because what is being stipulated by some is that there's no such thing as 'matter' apart from consciousness. That matter is an integral part of being.

 

[RM5998]

It's an event that emerged from a particle

That's the point. There is no way to speak of a 'from' in terms of physical and causal reality - not under the current formulation of physics. It is the beginning of being able to say something about the universe.

You should speak of it in terms of metaphysical terms, rather than physical ones.

 

[ningaman151]

Just how authentic is modern day 'science' and it's subsequent claims. The same people that introduced and published the Big Bang and its accompanying data, also lie and tell us that we've been to the moon and that space travel is possible. And Ina and on, there are many more lies. No species can leave Earth. Now, I've always been agnostic, but the fact is that whatever 'God' is/was, the underlying physics and biology of Earth and probably all planets that can support life, do not allow its inhabitants to leave. Unless there's a way to survive traveling through the Van Allen radiation belt, which as far as I know is impossible. Interplanetary travel is a hoax, just like the moon landings. Filmed in a Hollywood studio under the guidance of Stanley Kubrick.

I subscribe to a belief that the universe is infinite, and that it has always existed with no beginning. Certainly no singularity Big Bang origin. I do though enjoy Philipp Mainlanders hypothesis that God is dead, even if it isn't in total agreement with my beliefs.

Seriously? The moon landings are fake? Not even the Soviets denied the Americans went to the moon. As to the Van Allen radiation belt, no one can survive there at the moment for prolonged periods. Passing through it is fine. Please don't act like you're more knowledgeable than you are, you're just a dude on a suicide forum, don't act like you're more knowledgeable than NASA scientists.

 

[ningaman151]

Okay this thread has turned into a pseudoscience bullshit opinion one. Please talk about the facts here, not random mumbo jumbo.

 

[Deleted member 847]

The moon landing is bullshit. The soviets didn't deny it because they reached a compromise with the americans. Why do people believe everything that authorities or media tell them I'll never understand. They have all the reasons in the world to lie to us with propaganda.

 

[RM5998]

Okay this thread has turned into a pseudoscience bullshit opinion one. Please talk about the facts here, not random mumbo jumbo.

The problem is the state of modern physics and the layman's terms interpretations given to it. So much of what happened after Einstein (and including his work) is too mathematically complicated to be taught in a general physics course. The way cosmology works these days is strange, to say the least, and quantum mechanics muddles the waters even more by being both popular and misunderstood.

 

[ningaman151]

The moon landing is bullshit. The soviets didn't deny it because they reached a compromise with the americans. Why do people believe everything that authorities or media tell them I'll never understand. They have all the reasons in the world to lie to us with propaganda.

Whatever floats your boat. If you knew anything about how electronics work, especially how ICs are made, you would be claiming electronics are impossible.

 

[RM5998]

The moon landing is bullshit. The soviets didn't deny it because they reached a compromise with the americans. Why do people believe everything that authorities or media tell them I'll never understand. They have all the reasons in the world to lie to us with propaganda.

Cosmology as it is now is hardly dependent on the moon landing. As Penzias and Wilson's discovery of CMB showed, you can find evidence pretty easily. And as much as we'd like an SCP Foundation to exist, we can confirm a lot about what the current cosmological models tell about the universe pretty easily.

 

[Deleted member 847]

Here's my theory everything, There is the universe and it exists, any other explanation of it is just a mental construct. You don't need explanations when you see it as a nondual phenomenon. Explanations exists to reduce things. And that need comes from our illusion of being separated from the Universe. Can I get the nobel prize for laziness now?

 

[DeathBecomesMe]

The moon landing is bullshit. The soviets didn't deny it because they reached a compromise with the americans. Why do people believe everything that authorities or media tell them I'll never understand. They have all the reasons in the world to lie to us with propaganda.

Thank you. Soviet Union was captured by the jews with the Bolshevik Revolution, and the same jews infiltrated the US. Soviets/Russia and the US are controlled by the exact same clique. Any opposition to each other from day one has been 100% fabricated. How else would they get to blow trillions of their citizenry's tax dollars.

There's plenty of proof that the moon landing is a hoax, just go look yourself. Very recently, even Buzz Aldrin admitted as such when an 8 year old school girl questioned why we haven't been back since. I'm on my phone right now so not sure how good this link's clip is

Also, there is a joke amongst players in the space industry that NASA stands for Never A Space Adventure.

That is to keep you from the fact that NASA /NASHA is a Hebrew word which means: TO DECEIVE. More tax dollars being siphoned to bankrupt the masses.. Sorry if you don't enjoy my pseudoscience.

 

[ningaman151]

Thank you. Soviet Union was captured by the jews with the Bolshevik Revolution, and the same jews infiltrated the US. Soviets/Russia and the US are controlled by the exact same clique. Any opposition to each other from day one has been 100% fabricated. How else would they get to blow trillions of their citizenry's tax dollars.

There's plenty of proof that the moon landing is a hoax, just go look yourself. Very recently, even Buzz Aldrin admitted as such when an 8 year old school girl questioned why we haven't been back since. I'm on my phone right now so not sure how good this link's clip is

Also, there is a joke amongst players in the space industry that NASA stands for Never A Space Adventure.

That is to keep you from the fact that NASA /NASHA is a Hebrew word which means: TO DECEIVE. More tax dollars being siphoned to bankrupt the masses.. Sorry if you don't enjoy my pseudoscience.

Are you seriously this delusional?

 

[RM5998]

Here's my theory everything, There is the universe and it exists, any other explanation of it is just a mental construct. You don't need explanations when you see it as a nondual phenomenon. Explanations exists to reduce things. And that need comes from the illusion of being separated.

That's more abstractly philosophical than what we use as scientific theory. Also, the need for explanations doesn't just go away - scientific study is still a good (read effective and functional) way to contextualize what we see, which itself is essential to humanity's survival (I'm speaking in the evolutionary sense, I'm not trying to say that existence is important or valuable).

If you want that to be a scientific theory, come up with a model, a set of predictions, and experiments that will confirm your predictions. That's how science works - hypothesis, prediction, experimentation.

 

[DeathBecomesMe]

Are you seriously this delusional?

What if all 7 astronauts from the 1986 Challenger crash were still alive? You have to look into these things before claiming that I'm delusional. Do yourself justice, give yourself a chance.

I won't resort to insulting you, insults are usually the final stand when one is unable to formulate a logical reply. I will stick to the high ground with an open mind.

Peace matey, sorry if I've rustled your feathers. <3

 

[Deleted member 847]

That's more abstractly philosophical than what we use as scientific theory. Also, the need for explanations doesn't just go away - scientific study is still a good (read effective and functional) way to contextualize what we see, which itself is essential to humanity's survival (I'm speaking in the evolutionary sense, I'm not trying to say that existence is important or valuable).

If you want that to be a scientific theory, come up with a model, a set of predictions, and experiments that will confirm your predictions. That's how science works - hypothesis, prediction, experimentation.

My theory of everything implies that there can't be a theory of everything because the human mind can't comprehend certain aspects of existence in its ways of functioning. We didn't evolve to "understand" the universe, whatever that even means. We have a brain that makes patterns between past and future events. I'm pretty sure you need more than that to understand the universe and every tiny thing related to it. It's just common sense. I mean do you seriously think that an alien species with more intellectual power than us would see the world and interact with it as we do?

 

[itsallover]

I can't prove it, but we all know deep down even the most religious of us that when you die that's it. You go in the ground, get decomposed, everyone forgets about you after a short while and moves on. That's the hard truth of it.

 

[ningaman151]

What if all 7 astronauts from the 1986 Challenger crash were still alive? You have to look into these things before claiming that I'm delusional. Do yourself justice, give yourself a chance.

I won't resort to insulting you, insults are usually the final stand when one is unable to formulate a logical reply. I will stick to the high ground with an open mind.

Peace matey, sorry if I've rustled your feathers. <3

I've seen these videos, and don't act like you're being the better man. I don't know how you can convince yourself that everything is a conspiracy. Politicians and rulers are people just like you and me. Why are you making things so complicated? Like I said, if you had any knowledge in electronics you wouldn't believe that electronic devices actually worked. There is no reason to claim that the moon landings were impossible. Keep living in your fantasy mate, as I was once doing. Next thing you're going to tell me is that the reason there are trails left by planes is because they are chemtrials.

 

[Deleted member 847]

I've seen these videos, and don't act like you're being the better man. I don't know how you can convince yourself that everything is a conspiracy. Politicians and rulers are people just like you and me. Why are you making things so complicated? Like I said, if you had any knowledge in electronics you wouldn't believe that electronic devices actually worked. There is no reason to claim that the moon landings were impossible. Keep living in your fantasy mate, as I was once doing. Next thing you're going to tell me is that the reason there are trails left by planes is because they are chemtrials.

Yes man the government loves you. Wanna hear something? If I could use and manipulate you for my personal benefits, like getting richer, I would do it. Just so you know how trustworthy strangers are.

 

[ningaman151]

I can't prove it, but we all know deep down even the most religious of us that when you die that's it. You go in the ground, get decomposed, everyone forgets about you after a short while and moves on. That's the hard truth of it.

In a lot of ways that is a good thing. Living with this mind for a long period of time is the worst form of torture.

 

[ningaman151]

Yes man the government loves you. Wanna hear something? If I could use and manipulate you for my personal benefits, like getting richer, I would do it. Just so you know how trustworthy strangers are.

Why are you making things so complicated? The government consists of people. And what do people do? They route for themselves. How does the government make money? In democratic countries, where the GDP is mainly consistent of the productivity of the people, rather than natural resources, the government makes its money out of taxes. So to increase the money the government makes you try to tax the people as much as possible, while also trying to increase their productivity. As simple as it gets. Was that too hard?