Life itself is the problem

[BottomlessPit]

To be alive means to be a slave to two foreign masters: pain and pleasure. Everything we think, say, and do is an attempt to pursue one and avoid the other. While doing so we are under the illusion that if we could only procure whatever we desire, we could finally be happy and satisfied. But of course, that never happens; the satisfaction of an achievement is always fleeting, and before we know it, we are already struggling to satisfy another need.

The needs never stop coming and thus we are in a constant state of friction, as we try to reach a peaceful state of mind that is always out of reach. It is a natural reaction to blame the world and our circumstances for our misery, but I think that this way of thinking is too superficial. The problem is not found in individual problems but rather in the need for things to be different than they are. When I'm hungry it is not the lack of food that is the issue but the need for food; when I'm lonely it is not the lack of companionship that is the issue but the need for companionship itself.

Every single problem we have is predicated upon the presence of desires. Since being alive necessitates us being subject to a never-ending flow of needs, peace can never be fully achieved, at least not permanently. Full liberation from this struggle can only be found in death.

The view that suicide is inherently irrational is hysterical, given that it is quite literally the single most effective way to fix and uproot the problem that is responsible for all other problems. Pro-lifers are so caught up in their own will to live that any other view seems deranged and ill. It is a tragedy that evolution put us into such a brutal world while simultaneously imprisoning all life-forms with a survival instinct that only prolongs their suffering.

 

[WornOutLife]

I agree.
To make matters worse, people don't realize that life is more suffering than happiness.
Even if you have a lovely family, friends and money, you'll still get sick and old. You'll suffer and die.

Problems will show up when you expect them the least. For instance, the death of someone you love, being fired, robbed, etc.

Just get me the hell out of there please!

 

[Weary Soul]

Often times people say that money is the root of all evil. However, money is inert. It is people who control or use the money in bad ways that are the root of all evil.

Life itself is the same - inert. It is how one deals with life that makes the difference, and, just as it is with money - it is people who are the root of evil. Not all of them, but it has been very true in my life.

 

[FuneralCry]

Yes, I agree. We were all born from the selfish desire to procreate, nobody asked for this burden to be placed on them. At the same time we are denied a right to die and any attempt to leave is prohibited. Life is the definition of a prison and consciousness can purely be a nightmare - as humans we are constantly overstimulated.

Death is the answer it ends all of the constant chaos that comes from existing, it makes all of life's problems seem meaningless and superficial. It is inevitable and the end goal for all of us, so it should be seen as an rational alternative to pursuing an pointless struggle day after day.

 

[Weary Soul]

I would only change this slightly to say that it is not life that creates the prison - it is genetics, people, and forced societal norms that make life a prison.

<3

 

[TheAmazingCriswell]

To be alive means to be a slave to two foreign masters: pain and pleasure. Everything we think, say, and do is an attempt to pursue one and avoid the other. While doing so we are under the illusion that if we could only procure whatever we desire, we could finally be happy and satisfied. But of course, that never happens; the satisfaction of an achievement is always fleeting, and before we know it, we are already struggling to satisfy another need.

The needs never stop coming and thus we are in a constant state of friction, as we try to reach a peaceful state of mind that is always out of reach. It is a natural reaction to blame the world and our circumstances for our misery, but I think that this way of thinking is too superficial. The problem is not found in individual problems but rather in the need for things to be different than they are. When I'm hungry it is not the lack of food that is the issue but the need for food; when I'm lonely it is not the lack of companionship that is the issue but the need for companionship itself.

Every single problem we have is predicated upon the presence of desires. Since being alive necessitates us being subject to a never-ending flow of needs, peace can never be fully achieved, at least not permanently. Full liberation from this struggle can only be found in death.

The view that suicide is inherently irrational is hysterical, given that it is quite literally the single most effective way to fix and uproot the problem that is responsible for all other problems. Pro-lifers are so caught up in their own will to live that any other view seems deranged and ill. It is a tragedy that evolution put us into such a brutal world while simultaneously imprisoning all life-forms with a survival instinct that only prolongs their suffering.

To quote something I wrote somewhere else on this website:
Most people, let's call them "normal" for lack of a better word, would say that life is mainly good with bad parts in between, but all life consists fundamentally of suffering. This can easily be proven:
If you sit down and don't do anything, you will die of starvation and dehydration.
If you eat and drink, but don't do anything else, you will go insane from lack of mental exercise and suffer horribly from lack of physical exercise.
Essentially, your entire life consists of conscious and unconscious effort to avoid suffering; you have to work all the time to at least live a neutral existence. This leads to the conclusion that life is mainly bad with good parts in between.

As for your last paragraph:
Existence implies the existence of problems. (i.e. every thing that exists and is able to experience its existence (the animate as opposed to the inanimate) faces manifold problems.)
If existence ceases, so do the problems.
If problems cease to exist, so does the need for solutions.

It is essentially a variation of the tale of the Gordian knot:
The knot exists and has to be untied.
By cutting the knot in half, it ceases to exist as a knot.
Since it is not a knot anymore, there is no need to untie it.

Somehow, most people will praise Alexander for his ingenious idea, but condemn suicidal people as mentally ill for applying the same principle to life.
Mankind constantly tries to solve problems, yet for every solution a myriad of new problems arise.
It is impossible to solve all of life's problems, and trying to do so is an exercise in futility.
If mankind went extinct, the need for solutions of any kind were rendered obsolete, yet I constantly read (even on this website!) about possible advancements in the future.
How foolish is man! How insulting it is to be one!

 

[Weary Soul]

@pthnrdnojvsc

Is it life in and of itself that causes the pain, or people through their own mistakes, socioeconomic status, genetics, other sociopathic people, etc., who cause the pain?

I had kidney stones when I was 14 and when I was 17 (and a number of times thereafter). When I had them at 17, I was in the hospital and was not given adequate pain med. It was not life that was the problem, it was people. I was in so much pain, I begged for death absolutely begged for someone to kill me. In addition, no one at the time believed that a 14-year-old could have kidney stones - and I paid the price. So I suffered because of their ignorance (and also because my mother had a bad problem with telling doctors I made stuff up - I did not). Turns out that I was born with a predisposition for kidney stones and my mother forced me to eat things that promoted kidney stone growth. I no longer eat these things and I have not had a kidney stone in years.

I also had a very healthy brain at one time - and now I do not. I do not see it as "life" that caused this, I see this as caused by my ex who assaulted me numerous times and ultimately caused a brain bleed. This was multiplied by a car accident and medical "professionals" who gave me a medication that was completely contraindicated for someone with severe head injuries like mine. This medication caused me to have a grand mal seizure where I hit the concrete head first and suffered yet another very serious concussion.

I guess my question is:

~Is it life in and of itself that causes these difficulties or are these types of difficulties caused by inadequate prenatal care, inadequate parental care, inadequate health care, child abuse (including sexual abuse), assault, bullying, or some as yet unknown factor that causes a genetic anomaly that is unbearable to live with?

Also, I do not believe that life defines the ridiculous rules that we are expected to live by, it is people who define these rules, and then try to force their beliefs on us.

That extreme danger you described - was it caused by life or predatory people?

Your point about Christopher Reeves is well taken. It is well known that polo is a dangerous sport. So my question there would be: Was his accident caused by life or did his horse take a misstep, did another play "dirty pool" in a dangerous sport solely because the had to win, inattention on his part, a devastating accident, or just by virtue of taking a sheer risk in playing a high-risk sport? I do not know. It may well have just been a fluke accident - but I still would not blame life.

I am not sure that, as in the case of Robin Williams, it was life that caused his dis-ease/depression (it may well have), but it also may have been due to genetics as I wrote about above coupled by life experiences.

Maybe it boils down to semantics? By this I mean that when one says life is to blame for the things that happen to someone perhaps it might be more clear (at least to me) to say it is life-experiences that are to blame and not plain old life itself that causes the problems. If that makes any sense?

I am so sorry about the things that have happened to you that have caused you so much trauma and pain - we all deserve so much better! And congratulations on beginning school, no matter how late it may have occured. : )

 

[BottomlessPit]

Existence implies the existence of problems. (i.e. every thing that exists and is able to experience its existence (the animate as opposed to the inanimate) faces manifold problems.)
If existence ceases, so do the problems.
If problems cease to exist, so does the need for solutions.

It is essentially a variation of the tale of the Gordian knot:
The knot exists and has to be untied.
By cutting the knot in half, it ceases to exist as a knot.
Since it is not a knot anymore, there is no need to untie it.

Somehow, most people will praise Alexander for his ingenious idea, but condemn suicidal people as mentally ill for applying the same principle to life.

Thank you for mentioning the Gordian knot, I have never heard of it before but it's the perfect way to explain what I'm getting at. I have nothing more to add, you put it very succinctly and agree totally.
It is a very simple but elegant logic, it boggles my mind how so many people can't or don't want to comprehend it. Evolution did a good job at making us blind to anything anti-life. I am glad that my particular life story led me to accept this truth.

Mankind constantly tries to solve problems, yet for every solution a myriad of new problems arise.
It is impossible to solve all of life's problems, and trying to do so is an exercise in futility.
If mankind went extinct, the need for solutions of any kind were rendered obsolete, yet I constantly read (even on this website!) about possible advancements in the future.
How foolish is man! How insulting it is to be one!

Once I realized that the extinction of humanity would be the best possible scenario so many Hollywood movies lost their appeal, because so many plot points center around the idea that humanity should be saved at any cost. Even though an extinction would literally end all of our problems, even the concept of problems would disappear if we went extinct.
I have to puke when Elon Musk says he wants to "protect the light of consciousness" with his multi-planetary vanity project. Let that shit die out Elon, sentience is responsible for so much suffering that no one could even begin to comprehend it.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

@pthnrdnojvsc

Is it life in and of itself that causes the pain, or people through their own mistakes, socioeconomic status, genetics, other sociopathic people, etc., who cause the pain?

I had kidney stones when I was 14 and when I was 17 (and a number of times thereafter). When I had them at 17, I was in the hospital and was not given adequate pain med. It was not life that was the problem, it was people. I was in so much pain, I begged for death absolutely begged for someone to kill me. In addition, no one at the time believed that a 14-year-old could have kidney stones - and I paid the price. So I suffered because of their ignorance (and also because my mother had a bad problem with telling doctors I made stuff up - I did not). Turns out that I was born with a predisposition for kidney stones and my mother forced me to eat things that promoted kidney stone growth. I no longer eat these things and I have not had a kidney stone in years.

I also had a very healthy brain at one time - and now I do not. I do not see it as "life" that caused this, I see this as caused by my ex who assaulted me numerous times and ultimately caused a brain bleed. This was multiplied by a car accident and medical "professionals" who gave me a medication that was completely contraindicated for someone with severe head injuries like mine. This medication caused me to have a grand mal seizure where I hit the concrete head first and suffered yet another very serious concussion.

I guess my question is:

~Is it life in and of itself that causes these difficulties or are these types of difficulties caused by inadequate prenatal care, inadequate parental care, inadequate health care, child abuse (including sexual abuse), assault, bullying, or some as yet unknown factor that causes a genetic anomaly that is unbearable to live with?

Also, I do not believe that life defines the ridiculous rules that we are expected to live by, it is people who define these rules, and then try to force their beliefs on us.

That extreme danger you described - was it caused by life or predatory people?

Your point about Christopher Reeves is well taken. It is well known that polo is a dangerous sport. So my question there would be: Was his accident caused by life or did his horse take a misstep, did another play "dirty pool" in a dangerous sport solely because the had to win, inattention on his part, a devastating accident, or just by virtue of taking a sheer risk in playing a high-risk sport? I do not know. It may well have just been a fluke accident - but I still would not blame life.

I am not sure that, as in the case of Robin Williams, it was life that caused his dis-ease/depression (it may well have), but it also may have been due to genetics as I wrote about above coupled by life experiences.

Maybe it boils down to semantics? By this I mean that when one says life is to blame for the things that happen to someone perhaps it might be more clear (at least to me) to say it is life-experiences that are to blame and not plain old life itself that causes the problems. If that makes any sense?

I am so sorry about the things that have happened to you that have caused you so much trauma and pain - we all deserve so much better! And congratulations on beginning school. : )

Evolution invented nerves and pain 500 million years ago : and that will cause pain and torture ( who or what animal has never felt pain?)

Question what foods caused your kidney stones. i know kidney stones show how bad pain can really be. 99% of humans me included can not comprehend how bad pain can be : be afraid of pain, very afraid. everyone should be taught how to avoid kidney stones as that is unimaginable torture.

 

[Weary Soul]

@pthnrdnojvsc

Thank you for explaining where you are coming from. I think I understand better.

I never thought of life as causing pain - to me, life just is what it is, with all of its beauty and ugliness. To me, it was always how I chose to deal with what happened in life (ie, the innate nature of life), that made the difference.

I will check out that link - thanks so much for taking the time to explain : )

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

@pthnrdnojvsc

Thank you for explaining where you are coming from. I think I understand better.

I never thought of life as causing pain - to me, life just is what it is, with all of its beauty and ugliness. To me, it was always how I chose to deal with what happened in life (ie, the innate nature of life), that made the difference.

I will check out that link - thanks so much for taking the time to explain : )

I had kidney stones when I was 14 and when I was 17 (and a number of times thereafter). When I had them at 17, I was in the hospital and was not given adequate pain med. It was not life that was the problem, it was people. I was in so much pain, I begged for death absolutely begged for someone to kill me. In addition, no one at the time believed that a 14-year-old could have kidney stones - and I paid the price. So I suffered because of their ignorance (and also because my mother had a bad problem with telling doctors I made stuff up - I did not). Turns out that I was born with a predisposition for kidney stones and my mother forced me to eat things that promoted kidney stone growth. I no longer eat these things and I have not had a kidney stone in years.

I've never felt pain that bad as you did with kidney stones. but i think and can imagine unlike most pro-lifers. i felt bad pain but only for a second not long lasting pain on that level (as in kidney stones) : that is why i want to ctb to avoid that level of long lasting pain. i can't stand pain.

Question what foods caused kidney stones. i know kidney stones show how bad pain can be 99% of humans me included can not comprehend how bad pain can be : be afraid of pain, very afraid. everyone should be taught how to avoid kidney stones that is unimaginable torture.

 

[motel rooms]

To be alive means to be a slave to two foreign masters: pain and pleasure.

Mr. Buddha got the diagnosis right, but he was too much of a pussy to admit that suicide is the shortest path to the Nothingness that he so praised

 

[signifying nothing]

"Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."

- R D Laing

 

[demuic]

Life is responsible for all pain. The existence of life is a tragedy.

 

[Not Being]

Totally agree

The problem is the need. The being who desires, needs ... is in a state of LACK, and therefore suffers because "something is missing."
Indeed the problem is desire/the need.

I ask: who is more "happy"? or better yet, who is really "free"?
The one who desires or the one who does not desire? Obviously the second is, at least from my subjective interpretation, "happy", but above all, "Free", because it does not want, it is not in a state of LACK.

Who suffers the most? Someone who wants a sentimental partner or someone who doesn't have that need to want a sentimental partner?
Personally, he who has no needs is really free and happy in my opinion.

In the case of the sentimental partner, I much prefer not to have that need that only generates suffering (like many other biological needs that I did not ask to have and that only generate suffering) and the only way to be free from pain, suffering, is to stop wishing, and how do I stop wishing? Not-existence.
In non-existence it is not possible to wish, and therefore does not suffer.
For me, non-existence can be true happiness, desire (suffering of lack) is not possible, therefore, it is not possible to suffer because you do not want when you do not exist.

Non-existent beings, who are not yet born, are really happy, but above all, they are free, because they are not conditioned, they do not have imposed needs (such as biological needs), they cannot desire, they cannot feel envy, they cannot feel frustration, etc.
If these non-existent beings, who have the potential to be, come into existence, if parents bring them to existance, they will have created needs / desires / lack for them (new beings/children) that they did not have before their birth.


All this is my personal opinion.

 

[Celerity]

Sounds like you've been exposed to Buddhism in one form or another. Not saying they have the answer (seems they don't), but a lot of the ideas overlap, IMO.

Mr. Buddha got the diagnosis right, but he was too much of a pussy to admit that suicide is the shortest path to the Nothingness that he so praised

Do you think he believed in reincarnation, or was he just repeating what people would believe? Reincarnation is the only logical barrier under his system to suicide as far as I can tell.

 

[filthyrottendirty]

Human life is the problem

 

[Them]

If mankind went extinct, the need for solutions of any kind were rendered obsolete

Once I realized that the extinction of humanity would be the best possible scenario

So you don't see problem in other sentient (and more stupid) species continuing to exist after extinction of humanity? I fail to understand how extinction of humanity alone solves anything.

 

[BottomlessPit]

Sounds like you've been exposed to Buddhism in one form or another. Not saying they have the answer (seems they don't), but a lot of the ideas overlap, IMO.

I have never been and never will be a Buddhist, but yes I read about it a lot back in the day. If one leaves aside bogus claims such as rebirth and karma, what you're left with is a very pragmatic system of practice that could have the potential to make life on earth a bit more bearable. That is, if one were inclined to make this bearable. I have come to a point where I see death as the only way to achieve full liberation from this struggle, so things like pragmatic dharma or Stoicism are of no use to me anymore.

But I find it interesting that my Buddhist influences can apparently be gleaned from my post, because I definitely didn't incorporate those ideas consciously.

"Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."

- R D Laing

Funny that you chose this quote, I initially wanted to title my post "Life is a disease and death is the cure".

The problem is the need. The being who desires, needs ... is in a state of LACK, and therefore suffers because "something is missing."
Indeed the problem is desire/the need.

I ask: who is more "happy"? or better yet, who is really "free"?
The one who desires or the one who does not desire? Obviously the second is, at least from my subjective interpretation, "happy", but above all, "Free", because it does not want, it is not in a state of LACK.

Who suffers the most? Someone who wants a sentimental partner or someone who doesn't have that need to want a sentimental partner?
Personally, he who has no needs is really free and happy in my opinion.

In the case of the sentimental partner, I much prefer not to have that need that only generates suffering (like many other biological needs that I did not ask to have and that only generate suffering) and the only way to be free from pain, suffering, is to stop wishing, and how do I stop wishing? Not-existence.
In non-existence it is not possible to wish, and therefore does not suffer.
For me, non-existence can be true happiness, desire (suffering of lack) is not possible, therefore, it is not possible to suffer because you do not want when you do not exist.

Non-existent beings, who are not yet born, are really happy, but above all, they are free, because they are not conditioned, they do not have imposed needs (such as biological needs), they cannot desire, they cannot feel envy, they cannot feel frustration, etc.
If these non-existent beings, who have the potential to be, come into existence, if parents bring them to existance, they will have created needs / desires / lack for them (new beings/children) that they did not have before their birth.

Very well put, this is what I was trying to convey in my post. Good to know I'm not the only one who came to this conclusion.

So you don't see problem in other sentient (and more stupid) species continuing to exist after extinction of humanity? I fail to understand how extinction of humanity alone solves anything.

I do think that this is a problem, sentience is an issue regardless of the species that has it. That being said, an extinction of humanity alone would already solve a lot, considering that we are boasting 7.9 billion people.

 

[Weary Soul]

@pthnrdnojvsc, my kidney stones were calcium oxalate (most common type I believe), and at the time (long time ago), I was given a list of foods to eat sparingly or avoid in the hope of preventing excessive calcium intake, which they thought aided stone formation (tea was also included, which is the oxalate part or aided in the formation of stones I think, but not sure about that). Anecdotally, I also believe kidney stones might be related to the water in my country (soft vs. hard tap water and the minerals it contains - just personal speculation I have not researched this).

Funny thing? My body naturally knew what foods to avoid. I did not like foods that were rich in calcium or tea. And I was not lactose intolerant - never liked milk, cheese, etc. However, my mother forced me to drink milk every single day (even though I absolutely hated it), forced me to take supplements with high levels of calcium, and forced me to eat whatever was put on the table, regardless of calcium content, etc.

She was not a fool - she was evil.

The thing I find truly sad is that even as painful as kidney stones are, there will be an end to the pain. And treatments today are so much more advanced then when I was a child, take lithotripsy for example.

However, so many here have other types of chronic intractable pain and if you are in my country it is extremely difficult to get medications for pain that allow one to function. Not only that, many who were on pain medications (narcotics), which did not make them high but allowed them to function somewhat normally are not being prescribed these medications anymore OR the amount is being drastically cut down. We do have pain clinics, but even these are becoming corrupt with power and many cannot even go to them because insurance does not cover it.

Now that is true torture, IMO.

I have known many who are willing to take the risk of hitting up the dark net or the streets to get the pain management they need; however, this comes with potentially significant risk. These drugs may be mixed with other substances, may be overkill for the condition that needs to be treated (Take H for example), or may be something that has no pain reducing properties at all.

It is heartbreaking.

<3

(Edited to clarify my gift - ha! - of incessant typos)

 

[TheAmazingCriswell]

So you don't see problem in other sentient (and more stupid) species continuing to exist after extinction of humanity?

I do. My point was that humanity evolved to a point it could make the decision to end the species, yet spends vast resources in a futile attempt to improve life.
I sincerely believe the existence of life to be the worst thing that could possibly have happened in the universe. Unfortunately, annihilating all life on earth is very difficult; even if a nuclear holocaust occurred, there is no guarantee that life won't begin to evolve anew.