Venting Life after death

[Darkover]

In a mother's womb were two babies.One asked the other: "Do you believe in life after delivery?"The other replied, "Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later."
"Nonsense" said the first. "There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?"


The second said, "I don't know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can't understand now."


The first replied, "That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded."


The second insisted, "Well I think there is something and maybe it's different than it is here. Maybe we won't need this physical cord anymore."


The first replied, "Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere."


"Well, I don't know," said the second, "but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us."


The first replied "Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That's laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?"


The second said, "She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist."


Said the first: "Well I don't see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn't exist."


To which the second replied, "Sometimes, when you're in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above."

 

[Permanoir]

I think it's a really beautiful and thoughtful story, and it definitely makes you reflect. It does a good job of showing how we might not be able to understand what comes next from where we are now. But at the same time, it is false equivalence. We know for a fact that babies are born and live outside the womb — that's not something we have to believe in. The afterlife, on the other hand, isn't something we can prove in the same way. They just happen to share a few similarities, but not in a way that makes them truly comparable.

 

[Darkover]

I think it's a really beautiful and thoughtful story, and it definitely makes you reflect. It does a good job of showing how we might not be able to understand what comes next from where we are now. But at the same time, it is false equivalence. We know for a fact that babies are born and live outside the womb — that's not something we have to believe in. The afterlife, on the other hand, isn't something we can prove in the same way. They just happen to share a few similarities, but not in a way that makes them truly comparable.

The story is undeniably beautiful and poetic, and it succeeds emotionally and philosophically because it evokes the feeling of mystery and the limitations of our perception. But as you wisely point out, it's not a sound analogy in a literal or evidential sense.

The story treats both transitions—birth and death—as if they are parallel unknowns, but they aren't.

Birth leads to a known, observable state of being.

Death leads to a state we can't observe or return from in the same way.

This makes the logical leap from "we once couldn't imagine this world, and yet it existed" to "therefore something else probably exists after death" emotionally persuasive, but logically weak.

 

[timechained]

The story treats both transitions—birth and death—as if they are parallel unknowns, but they aren't.

Darkover in the 1st paragraph makes the logical point that from the babies perspective they are unknowns. They only know the womb just as we only know the earth.

We know as beings in the "after life" that baby 2 is correct, unfortunately in our own lives we can't know whose imagination about life after death is correct.

 

[Carrot]

We would need to get over the fact that these babies are so knowledgeable and out of infinite possibilities what might happen after birth somehow the baby A guessed it correctly. The chance of somebody guessing correctly is zero (or let's say near zero).

While not stated explicitlly, there is a pro-something-happens-after-life bias. I find it manipulative.

It's easy to figure out, but I find it a bit confusing that both of the babies are sometimes refered to as the "first" and "second".

Baby A thinks there is something after birth.
Baby B thinks there is nothing after birth.

Both babies are confidently talking about something they have no idea about and make unverifable, at the time, claims. Such behaviour is incredibly harmful. Don't make stuff up. If you don't know something, don't pretend you do.

---

A: Do you believe in life after delivery?

So far so good. Nothing wrong with the question.

B: Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.

B seems surprised, as of course, like it's obvious. There "has" to be. Why does there "have" to be something after delivery? There doesn't have to be anything. "Maybe" is a much better word. Maybe. We know B's beliefs. A feels strongly about them and presented them almost as it was a fact.

A: Nonsense. There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?"

"Nonsense" is a terribly reply. Followed by an unverifiable claim that there is nothing
after delivery. We know A's beliefs. B feels strongly about them and presented them almost as it was a fact. A is interested to hear more about A's belief.

A: I don't know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can't understand now.

A admits that they don't know. We hear more about A's beliefs.

B: That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.

B finds A's beliefs ridiculous. I don't like the way B expresses it. "Life after delivery is to be logically excluded." is incorrect. There is nothing logical about excluding it. Neither A nor B know what happens after birth. Literally anything can happen, you cannot logically exclude anything.

A: Well I think there is something and maybe it's different than it is here. Maybe we won't need this physical cord anymore.

More about A's beliefs. "I think" is fine. "Maybe" is fine. Nothing here is stated as fact, it's a speculation, belief.

B: Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one has ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.

More about B's beliefs. I refrained from judgement until now. This is presented in a very aggressive way that is clearly differently from the way A speaks, which seemingly, out of mere coincidence, out of infinite possibilities, turned out to be true.

A: Well, I don't know. But certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.

A admits they don't know. That's a very good thing and objective thing to say when talking about beliefs. I find it impossible to not draw parallels to Mother/God, presumably Christian.

B: Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That's laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?

God? You actually believe in God? That's laughable. If God exists then where is He now?
The way B talks clearly portrays atheists in a negative way. Look how rude B is, making fun of A's beliefs. It was B who asked about A's beliefs, A responds mostly in a kind, friendly, positive manner. Now B is attacking A.

A: She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.

Once again, this is clearly about God. And the metaphor has been carefully thought out in a way to make you think God might exist even if we might not understand everything at the moment. Maybe it will all make sense at some point.

B: Well I don't see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn't exist.

B doesn't see God, but the conclusion that He doesn't exist is wrong. I don't see ghosts, that doesn't mean that ghosts don't exist. Maybe ghosts exists, maybe they don't. With my current understanding of facts and evidence, I cannot make a verifiable statement about the existence of ghosts. I will not blindly believe that they exists, I will not claim they don't exist.

A: Sometimes, when you're in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.

I don't have anything to say about this.

---

This is not aimed at you specifically, but in general: If you want to believe in something and it doesn't harm others and it makes your life easier, go ahead. But don't present beliefs as facts and don't spread hatred and division (between religious people and atheists, or anybody else). I am not religious, I am not an atheist, I am agnostic, with the current information that I have, it is impossible to say if god exists or not.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

OP, I think that was good, thanks for sharing it. I am slightly amused at some responses. Some things are beyond logic.

 

[Carrot]

I am slightly amused at some responses. Some things are beyond logic.

Feel free to elaborate which and reply to responses, so people can discuss things. Maybe you or somebody else can learn from it. What things are beyond logic?

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's a really interesting perspective and reflection on how we view the unknown of death. I'm kind of glad I wasn't that self aware in the womb though! I imagine birth would be quite a distressing experience- a very tight water slide out into the cold and dazzling light.

It's very true though. We are pretty limited by what we feel able to perceive and understand. Maybe religious folk have the edge there. But then, they could be wrong too. Still- whatever you happen to believe in- it's coming...

Could those babies have better prepared for their life in the real world- even if they had known the truth? Not sure really. I love the way they painted life to be full of freedom and wonder! Imagine if they'd thought about the other reality- you're about to be born... All sorts could go wrong... You may get the umbilical cord wrapped around your neck. Some idiot could drop you or, forget to feed you. The moment you're out in the cold, you'll be vulnerable to all manner of dangers. I reckon they might have ended up wanting to stay put! Just like us though, they wouldn't get the choice...

Imagine if we all came out that smart and existential to begin with! School would be a breeze.

 

[intr0verse]

I have no reason to believe consciousness or anything "spiritual" survives biological death but this is so very well written. It was a great read.