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W

Wannagonow

Specialist
Nov 16, 2022
376
The option for Canadians suffering with mental illness to receive assistance in ctb- set to begin in March, is now off the table. Apparently people are concerned that expansion would offer death as an option to those with Suicidal thoughts. Well DUH!
The article went on to say "Some psychiatrists have also expressed concern that Canada's health care system is not ready to handle requests for assisted dying from people with mental disorders, as it is difficult to predict who can recover from a mental illness". The article went on further to say "A petition from the Society of Canadian Psychiatry has asked that the expansion be delayed until 2024". It remains unclear how long the government wants to delay its implementation. I'm not Canadian. But I've been following this closely as it may break ground for other countries to follow. My understanding is this law as written may have had some flaws in it anyway. But I still feel this is a step backwards. Thoughts?
 
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MountainMonkey

MountainMonkey

Student
Jun 17, 2022
138
The option for Canadians suffering with mental illness to receive assistance in ctb- set to begin in March, is now off the table. Apparently people are concerned that expansion would offer death as an option to those with Suicidal thoughts. Well DUH!
The article went on to say "Some psychiatrists have also expressed concern that Canada's health care system is not ready to handle requests for assisted dying from people with mental disorders, as it is difficult to predict who can recover from a mental illness". The article went on further to say "A petition from the Society of Canadian Psychiatry has asked that the expansion be delayed until 2024". It remains unclear how long the government wants to delay its implementation. I'm not Canadian. But I've been following this closely as it may break ground for other countries to follow. My understanding is this law as written may have had some flaws in it anyway. But I still feel this is a step backwards. Thoughts?
The psychiatric industry is protecting their finances. Dead patients equals less money.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,209
Yeah, it doesn't sound promising to people like us (not that I would likely be eligable anyway) but it doesn't surprise me at all. I just wonder how they'll assertain whether someone CAN get better. I'm imaging something like @noname223 posted yesterday- a set of conditions maybe over a period of time (therapy and meds I suppose) to see if they can change your mind... Unless of course, you've already gone through all that stuff and have two psychiatrists/ therapists willing to 'right you off' as it were.

I wonder if that is not the bigger issue here. How many medical 'proffesionals' do you suppose really want to throw in the towel- admit that their treatments don't work and (maybe) get a reputation for helping their patients kill themselves? Do you think they would see it as merciful successes or medical failures? I don't imagine people go into these proffesions contemplating helping someone to end their life- rather than save it. Still, perhaps as time goes on and attitudes change, the medical field will change also.
 
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Mofreeko

Mofreeko

Arcanist
Apr 7, 2019
478
The Canadian government is getting a lot of pushback on assisted suicide from the public.
 
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wait.what

wait.what

no really, what?
Aug 14, 2020
994
At bottom, this is more nonsense about mental illness somehow not being real. It makes people very uncomfortable to think that the way they experience the world isn't under their conscious control. They like to say "mind over matter," as if their minds weren't ultimately based in matter. I'd like to invite such people to try a nice icepick lobotomy and see if they can say that again.

It's also disingenuous to pretend that the prognosis for mental illnesses is any less reliable than that for any other chronic disease. It's difficult to predict the precise course of an individual's schizophrenia, just as it is to predict the course of an individual's multiple sclerosis or stage IV cancer. Statistically, however, it's possible to determine that someone with a particular diagnosis has an X% chance of long-term remission and a Y% chance of a cure. Sometimes those percentages are pretty close to zero, and it is appropriate to make treatment decisions based those numbers, including the decision to apply for MAID. That's true regardless of the fact that you can't tell if this one specific patient is going to drink holy water next Tuesday and be miraculously cured.

Canada just isn't ready to accept that sometimes taking yoga classes, or drinking only alkaline water, or praying extra hard in church, or trying just one more therapist, isn't going to do shit. That's not surprising, since it isn't a comfortable thing to accept. The decision to kick MAID for the mentally ill down the road, probably indefinitely, is disappointing, however, because sometimes my own stupid country takes pointers from Canada. (I do live in an extra-stupid state, though, so maybe it's irrelevant for me anyway.)
 
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LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Angelic
Jul 23, 2022
4,362
Even if there were problems this news saddens me (even as a non-Canadian).
 
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R

RW__Asher23

Experienced
Dec 11, 2022
204
Wow just a 20 min drive and I would be in Canada. I heard about this and thought maybe...... well this is disappointing but not a surprise. I love the response to second line " Apparently people are concerned that expansion would offer death as an option to those with Suicidal thoughts. Well DUH! " Funny but seriously what do you think that would mean. I second that comment, Well DUH!!! Thanks for this information though. Peace.
 
odradek

odradek

Mage
Sep 16, 2021
557
I don't see MAID passing for mental illness at this point. This attempted can kicking is not a good sign and it's at a bad time. For one thing, Canada's healthcare system is absolutely not ready to handle these types of requests (let alone more mundane requests). It's a mess to put it simply.

Another thing, if MAID for mental illness were made legal it would force Canadian society to look in the mirror at the absolute state of itself. Some of the people who would seek this out would otherwise not in a more healthy, let say, country. Canada is all smiles and passive aggression and minimal introspection.

Finally, Trudeau is going on year 8 as PM and his Liberals have a minority government. Minority governments in Canada usually have a 2 year lifespan. Those two factors combined means Trudeau will likely lose an election to Pierre Poilievre's Conservatives next year. He is a hard right social conservative (by Canadian standards). Let's just say, social conservatives generally don't respect bodily autonomy. This issue will die a quick death with any Conservative government. How ironic.

As an aside, even if MAID for mental illness became legal I would not seek it out in Canada. Just imagining the bureaucracy between you and your death bed does my head in. Double that for a non-citizen. Or they might just ban non-citizens to avoid the suicide tourism label. Who knows, but outlook not so good imo. Sorry...
 
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W

Wannagonow

Specialist
Nov 16, 2022
376
At bottom, this is more nonsense about mental illness somehow not being real. It makes people very uncomfortable to think that the way they experience the world isn't under their conscious control. They like to say "mind over matter," as if their minds weren't ultimately based in matter. I'd like to invite such people to try a nice icepick lobotomy and see if they can say that again.

It's also disingenuous to pretend that the prognosis for mental illnesses is any less reliable than that for any other chronic disease. It's difficult to predict the precise course of an individual's schizophrenia, just as it is to predict the course of an individual's multiple sclerosis or stage IV cancer. Statistically, however, it's possible to determine that someone with a particular diagnosis has an X% chance of long-term remission and a Y% chance of a cure. Sometimes those percentages are pretty close to zero, and it is appropriate to make treatment decisions based those numbers, including the decision to apply for MAID. That's true regardless of the fact that you can't tell if this one specific patient is going to drink holy water next Tuesday and be miraculously cured.

Canada just isn't ready to accept that sometimes taking yoga classes, or drinking only alkaline water, or praying extra hard in church, or trying just one more therapist, isn't going to do shit. That's not surprising, since it isn't a comfortable thing to accept. The decision to kick MAID for the mentally ill down the road, probably indefinitely, is disappointing, however, because sometimes my own stupid country takes pointers from Canada. (I do live in an extra-stupid state, though, so maybe it's irrelevant for me anyway.)
Great post. I agree with every single sentence. (Not that you need me too- ha ha) Wish I could post with such clarity.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
7,018
The psychiatric industry is protecting their finances. Dead patients equals less money.
Sadly, that is true, and that is the problem of the field. I don't deny that mental illnesses don't exist, but the weaponization of psychiatry to infringe on the rights of individuals who have the capacity to make (rational) decisions on their own, and attempts to further monetize on those who otherwise do not wish to is predatory, unethical, and disgusting.

It is strange that even if they want to make money, they did not consider (another topic altogether) that perhaps even people who want to die, there could be a system where they go through assessors, counselors, and what not so they wouldn't lose as much revenue as they feared while still respecting a patient's wishes.

Yeah, it doesn't sound promising to people like us (not that I would likely be eligable anyway) but it doesn't surprise me at all. I just wonder how they'll assertain whether someone CAN get better. I'm imaging something like @noname223 posted yesterday- a set of conditions maybe over a period of time (therapy and meds I suppose) to see if they can change your mind... Unless of course, you've already gone through all that stuff and have two psychiatrists/ therapists willing to 'right you off' as it were.

I wonder if that is not the bigger issue here. How many medical 'proffesionals' do you suppose really want to throw in the towel- admit that their treatments don't work and (maybe) get a reputation for helping their patients kill themselves? Do you think they would see it as merciful successes or medical failures? I don't imagine people go into these proffesions contemplating helping someone to end their life- rather than save it. Still, perhaps as time goes on and attitudes change, the medical field will change also.
Yeah, most of these professionals want to save lives (pro-life by default), and also because they care about their career and reputation within their circles, community, and peers, they fear about the backlash, ostracization, and perhaps even civil consequences (including legal action) taken against them.

I do hope that with time, attitudes will change and the medical field also.

I don't see MAID passing for mental illness at this point. This attempted can kicking is not a good sign and it's at a bad time. For one thing, Canada's healthcare system is absolutely not ready to handle these types of requests (let alone more mundane requests). It's a mess to put it simply.

Another thing, if MAID for mental illness were made legal it would force Canadian society to look in the mirror at the absolute state of itself. Some of the people who would seek this out would otherwise not in a more healthy, let say, country. Canada is all smiles and passive aggression and minimal introspection.

Finally, Trudeau is going on year 8 as PM and his Liberals have a minority government. Minority governments in Canada usually have a 2 year lifespan. Those two factors combined means Trudeau will likely lose an election to Pierre Poilievre's Conservatives next year. He is a hard right social conservative (by Canadian standards). Let's just say, social conservatives generally don't respect bodily autonomy. This issue will die a quick death with any Conservative government. How ironic.

As an aside, even if MAID for mental illness became legal I would not seek it out in Canada. Just imagining the bureaucracy between you and your death bed does my head in. Double that for a non-citizen. Or they might just ban non-citizens to avoid the suicide tourism label. Who knows, but outlook not so good imo. Sorry...
As an US citizen who was hoping that MAID will become more accessible to non-Canadian citizens, based on what you described in your post, maybe it is better for those in the US to take matters into their own hands regarding their own existence... Also, if what you mentioned about the conservative government is true, then that could undo years of progress that got Maid to it's current state as it is now. Maybe other social issues and progressive policies (not related to CTB or medical assistance in dying) ends up getting rolled back or undone which makes the future Canada less appealing for those who currently live there.

I do hope whatever happens they don't outright ban assisted suicide for all, otherwise it will be just like most of the US states where assisted suicide (for anything, including terminal illnesses) is illegal, which would suck for many Canadian citizens.. In addition to that, yes the bureaucracy as well as the subjective tests (fails to meet the same standard of evidence as other medical fields that conduct objective tests), are a big problem too as there is no way for a patient to get recourse should there be a doctor that is very vehemently pro-life and refuses to be objective, impartial, and fair towards the patient during diagnosis. Of course, then to make matters worse, the public accepts these 'subjective tests' as a objective criteria and legitimate pretext to deny an patient with capacity their bodily autonomy and free will.
 
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KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

想死不能 - 想活不能
Nov 23, 2020
1,803
It isn't surprising considering the uproar over two cases of misconduct that happened recently. You've probably heard about how MAID was suggested to an elderly military veteran with PTSD, or the other case involving a man in dire poverty who sought out MAID due to his financial circumstances (he ended up not going through with it in the end due to generous donations from the public)

While disciplinary action was taken against the healthcare worker who suggested the elderly man apply for MAID, no doubt this situation has had a ripple effect on public opinion and policymaking.

It is appalling that he had been reccomended the last resort before anything else, but this was an edge case where the guilty party was swiftly punished and publically castigated. That one incidence of misconduct was all it took to dramatically shift public opinion on this matter.

The media was all over that story, and it sparked a lot of debate around safeguarding and the ethical considerations surrounding assisted dying. One can speculate that these two cases may have characterised the new MAID requirements as bad optics, indeed, I've already seen many news article comments where people are comparing the right to die to "eugenics".

Many people who have no experience with these topics seem to truly believe that giving the option of MAID to the so called mentally ill means deliberately mistreating people, culling out the weak, and "leaving them to die." The notion that a mentally ill person has capacity to make a decision like this for themselves is ludicrous to that group. They can't seem to take off the rose tinted glasses and acknowledge that there are cases where a person has exhausted all options and can't be cured or fixed.

It's going to take a long time for this idea to blow over, it seems. Especially with the scandals, the laws supporting involuntary detainment and forced treatment of the suicidal, we are far from a world where one's chronic, sustained wish to die is not seen as a scandalous misjudgement.
 
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ayb

ayb

"I'd feel trapped if I couldn't CTB at any time."
Feb 15, 2019
292
Me thinks the fight needs to be taken to the Supreme Court of Canada if Pierre is going to get into power and ban it.
@wljourney
 
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A

affinity

Member
Oct 8, 2021
73
The psychiatric industry is protecting their finances. Dead patients equals less money.

…problem is that the govt has done the math and it's cheaper to get rid of so called drains on society.

Why spend $ on health care, safe housing (where ppl can actually maintain or finally have something to take pride in), job/skill training and temporary (to get people back on their feet) or permanent benefits (for those who have been chewed up by the system) when you can pay for a handful of doc visits and a relatively inexpensive drug?

It's so interesting to see stories that Canada is in desperate need for workers and feel they need to achieve same via immigration. On principle, that's not an issue: but numbers isn't the problem. It's the fact that there are plenty of people who are willing to work, but cannot afford to live off what is being offered as salary. It's either that or they simply cannot afford the training and apprenticeship/paid on the job training has gone the way of the dodo.

Our society has just veered away from so many good things due to pure greed and focus on "me". The latter factor is such an interesting topic and that goes beyond this thread, but it's something I've been noticing more and more and I wonder if I'm the only one. We used to care about one another and now it's mandatory to "look out for number one" and "good vibes only". It's sad.
 
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Nemaki Arber

Nemaki Arber

Survivor of too many attempts
Mar 24, 2023
96
It's frustrating, I'm Canadian and had been keeping an eye for how to sign up when I saw the message at the top of the government website indicating its been pushed back to 2024...

I match some of the required criterias too; Mental disorder resisting all treatments, incapable of functioning as a member of society, I'm currently on welfare and both physically and mentally can't work despite my best effort. I wish they'd just let it happen already.
 
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whitefeather

whitefeather

Thank the gods for Death
Apr 23, 2020
519
…problem is that the govt has done the math and it's cheaper to get rid of so called drains on society.

Why spend $ on health care, safe housing (where ppl can actually maintain or finally have something to take pride in), job/skill training and temporary (to get people back on their feet) or permanent benefits (for those who have been chewed up by the system) when you can pay for a handful of doc visits and a relatively inexpensive drug?

It's so interesting to see stories that Canada is in desperate need for workers and feel they need to achieve same via immigration. On principle, that's not an issue: but numbers isn't the problem. It's the fact that there are plenty of people who are willing to work, but cannot afford to live off what is being offered as salary. It's either that or they simply cannot afford the training and apprenticeship/paid on the job training has gone the way of the dodo.

Our society has just veered away from so many good things due to pure greed and focus on "me". The latter factor is such an interesting topic and that goes beyond this thread, but it's something I've been noticing more and more and I wonder if I'm the only one. We used to care about one another and now it's mandatory to "look out for number one" and "good vibes only". It's sad.
 
iusedtobehappy

iusedtobehappy

Experienced
Dec 2, 2023
236
Yeah, this will go on forever. Instead pharm likes to pass out antidepressants like candy that increase suicide ideation anyway but and the big BUT, they make money off it. So instead they leave it to things like guns and jumping off high places and hanging from a noose to traumatize family and friends. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. (Thick sarcasm..)
 
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SmallKoy

SmallKoy

Aficionado
Jan 18, 2024
233
Wow this makes me really sad to hear. I'm Canadian and had no idea that this was even being considered in Canada. Canada is absolutely terrible at the moment... This news makes living here even less appealing.
 
S

stuckinthemud

Student
Nov 14, 2023
120
The option for Canadians suffering with mental illness to receive assistance in ctb- set to begin in March, is now off the table. Apparently people are concerned that expansion would offer death as an option to those with Suicidal thoughts. Well DUH!
The article went on to say "Some psychiatrists have also expressed concern that Canada's health care system is not ready to handle requests for assisted dying from people with mental disorders, as it is difficult to predict who can recover from a mental illness". The article went on further to say "A petition from the Society of Canadian Psychiatry has asked that the expansion be delayed until 2024". It remains unclear how long the government wants to delay its implementation. I'm not Canadian. But I've been following this closely as it may break ground for other countries to follow. My understanding is this law as written may have had some flaws in it anyway. But I still feel this is a step backwards. Though
The option for Canadians suffering with mental illness to receive assistance in ctb- set to begin in March, is now off the table. Apparently people are concerned that expansion would offer death as an option to those with Suicidal thoughts. Well DUH!
The article went on to say "Some psychiatrists have also expressed concern that Canada's health care system is not ready to handle requests for assisted dying from people with mental disorders, as it is difficult to predict who can recover from a mental illness". The article went on further to say "A petition from the Society of Canadian Psychiatry has asked that the expansion be delayed until 2024". It remains unclear how long the government wants to delay its implementation. I'm not Canadian. But I've been following this closely as it may break ground for other countries to follow. My understanding is this law as written may have had some flaws in it anyway. But I still feel this is a step backwards. Thoughts?
It's a shame, by now I'd hope Canada would have legalised assisted dying for mental health.
I use to be friends with Adam Maier-Clayton before he ended his life…he tried his absolute best to convince the Canadian government.
I remember when he got N and his 1st ctb attempt was reported by a prolifer and the police showed up to the hotel and confiscated it.
 
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SilentSadness

SilentSadness

Sleepy.
Feb 28, 2023
1,407
If that's the official reasoning, then it doesn't make any sense. It's not up to them to decide who will "recover", and the right to die is based on autonomy and not a privilege.
 
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The Tablet

The Tablet

drawing myself to death ❀
Jul 8, 2021
52
The option for Canadians suffering with mental illness to receive assistance in ctb- set to begin in March, is now off the table. Apparently people are concerned that expansion would offer death as an option to those with Suicidal thoughts. Well DUH!
The article went on to say "Some psychiatrists have also expressed concern that Canada's health care system is not ready to handle requests for assisted dying from people with mental disorders, as it is difficult to predict who can recover from a mental illness". The article went on further to say "A petition from the Society of Canadian Psychiatry has asked that the expansion be delayed until 2024". It remains unclear how long the government wants to delay its implementation. I'm not Canadian. But I've been following this closely as it may break ground for other countries to follow. My understanding is this law as written may have had some flaws in it anyway. But I still feel this is a step backwards. Thoughts?
my thoughts are that i'm not holding my breath and neither should any of you. i highly doubt politicians of all people would have the balls to not back down in the face of quack psychiatrists whining! like c'mon people. i'd love to be proven wrong, of course.... but i'm not sticking around to find out if i will 😉
 
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H

Hotsackage

Enlightened
Mar 11, 2019
1,147
I live the land of north, they delayed it again? Supposed to be available st patties day this year
 
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The Tablet

The Tablet

drawing myself to death ❀
Jul 8, 2021
52
I live the land of north, they delayed it again? Supposed to be available st patties day this year
they didn't delay it..... yet. i don't have high hopes that the liberal's — or any political group for that matter — will be able to do something actually GOOD for once in their fruitless miserable lives. in the words of one AugieRFC, "sucks to suck! ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯" (that last bit is directed at the politicians running this shitshow, to be clear)
 
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4everHeartBroken

4everHeartBroken

Experienced
Feb 11, 2024
292
It's a shame, by now I'd hope Canada would have legalised assisted dying for mental health.
I use to be friends with Adam Maier-Clayton before he ended his life…he tried his absolute best to convince the Canadian government.
I remember when he got N and his 1st ctb attempt was reported by a prolifer and the police showed up to the hotel and confiscated it.
I was just going to ask this question, but then I came across your post here and thought I'd ask you… Do you (or anyone reading this) know how Adam Clayton took his life in the motel room?
 
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H

Hotsackage

Enlightened
Mar 11, 2019
1,147
He had nembutal
 
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Malfunction

Malfunction

Member
Jul 27, 2024
76
Canada prefers to have its impoverished and sick population living outside, out of sight and high on fentanyl. The parasites can still milk these people as long as they are living.

Another thing that's laughable is that the federal government spent millions to create a mental health and drug abuse service (Pocketwell) only to announce they are trashing it after only a few years in existence. So now we have nothing again, not that it was much to begin with, but at least it was something that could have been expanded.

And to top it off, we have the conservative party taking control next, can't wait to see the upcoming cuts.

Biggest problem Canada faces is its voters can't get away from the two parties that have been gutting public services for decades. We'd rather keep falling I guess.

This country is a shell of its former self.
 
H

Hotsackage

Enlightened
Mar 11, 2019
1,147
Sorry! I wanted to ask an obvious question: how the hell did he get Nembutal that lucky so and so?!?
He was in contact with people from exit or w.e. I'm sure his advocacy was sparked to do that, I'm pretty sure. I mean there are videos of him on youtube admitting to have access through these organizations
 

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