Discussion Jordan Petersons disappointing take on canadas MAiD laws

[MeltingBrain]

Jordan Peterson (world renowned psychologist) had a very disappointing take on Canada's Assisted suicide law . ()
If anybody wants to read up on Canada's new assisted suicide law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada)

He makes sense in the beginning of the video:

- First 2.5 mins he told his personal story about his suicidal ideation and even considered going to Switzerland to end it all .

- He recognizes that we allow dogs a peaceful exit. He quotes Nietzsche- "You haven't lived long if you haven't seen that a compassionate hand sometimes kills .

This is where things go off the rails :

- He doesn't think government should conduct such assisted suicide programs because he thinks it can slide into what Nazis did to mentally ill people and gays .
But MAiD is voluntary , there is a HUGE difference between voluntarily asking for a merciful ending and executing people whether they like it or not . The latter is not in the law and there are obviously no plans to include it . It's a far-fetched hypothetical transition which JP is grasping on to make a point .

- Here comes his worse take . He thinks if anyone should have the right to take the decision (to the extent that they do) to assist in suicide , it's the family that has the "right and responsibility" . What if the family member/s are evil ? eg. a son trying to get inheritance, a personal feud OR What if the family members take the decision based on incorrect medical assessment ?

These MAiD laws prime-facie look very good to me . Although what you think and what's actually happening on the ground can have huge discrepancies but JP fails to point any of them out .

What are your thoughts on JP's take on the issue ?

 

[Forever Sleep]

Honestly, sometimes this guy annoys me, so I don't fancy watching it right now to be honest! But- going from your points:

In a way- I have thought about this myself. I agree with assisted suicide- yes. Should the programmes be run by our governments though? That is a little more tricky. Yes- it's voluntary- granted. Put it this way though- what's cheaper for the government? Take someone off the streets, get them off of drugs and alcohol if that had become a problem, provide them with housing, food and education, attend to any medical issues- perhaps for a prolonged period. Or- give them assistance in dying. They MAY wish to die- it MAY be their choice. WAS it necessarily entirely their own failings/ choice that got them where they were to begin with?

Isn't it just easier for governments to fail it's citizens and then offer them death rather than have to help them? I think it CAN look like governments are just taking the 'easy way out' slaughtering the most troublesome portion of its community- those who take more than they give. Yes, it's their 'choice'. Would they have made the same 'choice' if they had been given the opportunity of a better life to begin with? Would they be choosing death if they were more confident they would actually receive the help they needed? Maybe not. Does that not mean they are being coerced- and by the very people willing to kill them.

As for families making the decision... Yikes! I mean- I think ideally they should be informed- yes. Ideally, it would be good if they supported the person's decision to die. But to make the decision for them?!! What? How would he like it if someone else decided whether he should live or die?

 

[MeltingBrain]

Honestly, sometimes this guy annoys me, so I don't fancy watching it right now to be honest!

He has gone totally off the rails recently .

In a way- I have thought about this myself. I agree with assisted suicide- yes. Should the programmes be run by our governments though? That is a little more tricky. Yes- it's voluntary- granted. Put it this way though- what's cheaper for the government? Take someone off the streets, get them off of drugs and alcohol if that had become a problem, provide them with housing, food and education, attend to any medical issues- perhaps for a prolonged period. Or- give them assistance in dying. They MAY wish to die- it MAY be their choice. WAS it necessarily entirely their own failings/ choice that got them where they were to begin with?

Isn't it just easier for governments to fail it's citizens and then offer them death rather than have to help them? I think it CAN look like governments are just taking the 'easy way out' slaughtering the most troublesome portion of its community- those who take more than they give. Yes, it's their 'choice'. Would they have made the same 'choice' if they had been given the opportunity of a better life to begin with? Would they be choosing death if they were more confident they would actually receive the help they needed? Maybe not. Does that not mean they are being coerced- and by the very people willing to kill them.

He is supposed to be an expert but you just made better arguments than him. Mental health is supposed to be included from next year in MaID law. Will people be allowed MAiD for alcoholism and drugs remains to be seen .
To add to that any 2 physicians are sufficient, what if there are some "psychopathic" physicians known for handing out MAiD like candy in exchange for a fat wad of cash ?

 

[Forever Sleep]

He has gone totally off the rails recently .

He is supposed to be an expert but you just made better arguments than him. Mental health is supposed to be included from next year in MaID law. Will people be allowed MAiD for alcoholism and drugs remains to be seen .
To add to that any 2 physicians are sufficient, what if there are some "psychopathic" physicians known for handing out MAiD like candy in exchange for a fat wad of cash ?

Sometimes I've enjoyed his talks but other times- yeah. He just says it all with too much conviction for my liking! Lol. But yeah- absolutely. While I think many of us- presumably all of us here support assisted suicide- the real nitty gritty of it can be complex. That's good though- it means people are FINALLY considering ways to practically implement it.

 

[TheSpookyNameGuy]

The guy is just a whiney fucker now, can't stand listening to him anymore

 

[AllFoxedOut]

Dude was good for some self help stuff, wouldn't listen to him on much else though.

 

[neveragreedtothis]

So because of "What if What if What if" people should be allowed to suffer without end?
They're going to resort to more dangerous methods anyway.

 

[Livingvsdying25]

Watching people talk about MAID can be a bit triggering so for rn ima just go off the points you wrote / will watch it maybe later? But even reading the comments for the video are pissing me off.

This concept that ANYONE gets to decide for anyone else whether their life is worth living is something that just infuriates me. Right now I'm pretty sure I could qualify for MAID. If I kept up with my health and did the like 3-4 more tests I needa do I'd DEF qualify. (Physical health issues)

I'm not going that route though bc the extensive ass process it is & the unknown tests and accessments. Im not going through with it bc at the end of the day it still feels like allowing someone to decide whether im both sick enough and "rational minded" enough to die.

I feel like if MAID was more widely available yee more people would choose to die but why is that though? We need to start looking at the issues in society. Im tired of people just listing off stupid bullshit about life being worth living while blatantly ignoring or glorifying ones issues.

Hell look at the comments talkin bout some "my family member is disabled and in a lot of pain but they keep living" like good for them but is that really their choice??


Here where im at in Canada Doug Ford is fucking up the health care even more. We're so close to being like the US and having to pay for everything when things are barly covered now. Eye exams used to be covered. Now I can't get one covered unless its every 2 yrs bc I'm on disability. Folks not on disability jus have to pay outright.


So yee lets fix health care for both physical & mental health. My worker and I were looking for a service where its like medical case management and that doesn't exist unless you are about to die or you pay a bunch.

The way I'm wanting to actually get that ultrasound and pray I have cancer is fucking wack but makes sense to me. If I did have cancer I'd have all these covered health help options and you shouldn't have to have a terminal disease to get proper support.

I can't believe there has been so much debate about extending MAID to mental illness but like NO talks of making mental health services better or more affordable. Like lets make it make sense.

So we don't want people to be able to choose to end their lives but we're also not gonna make it easier for them to live . Just sounds like continuing suffering. Also constantly placing the concept of wanting to die as something EVERYONE can just "overcome" is bullshit. Just bc someone else did doesn't mean everyone else can.

Talks in society about suicide are always sooo narrow minded bc people cannot separate their own feelings from the matter and think about how someone else actually feels. I'm kinda having that issue in my own life tbh. But im not seeking much understanding anymore.

Everyone just wants people to live regardless of how much it hurts to do so and that is cruel. Not allowing them to choose is cruel.

Me having to stress my self out financially and otherwise to set up a method is cruel.

now I'm kinda thinking maybe I should give MAID a try. If I present "just right" im sure I can explain the suffering... I'd feel so disheartened & have less energy than I do now if I got denied. So that's what's stopping me right now...

Those are my thoughts on it. I wish they would start speaking to actual suicidal people instead of just those that "got through" suicidal folk should have their opinions on this being considered but nope were too "mentally ill" for that

 

[lachrymost]

I certainly understand not wanting the government to have this power, but if that's the case the government needs to end their curtailment of suicide methods--like the current SN turmoil.

He also does the "what if someone has a transient suicidal episode and calls on the government to kill them?" routine. This perpetuates the misconception that this is how MAiD for mental illness is going to be implemented--simple and fast for the first flush of suicidality. Not remotely so actually, or I would have nothing to worry about in terms of my chances of approval.

 

[chillmungo]

It's been argued that you should consider yourself to have lost any argument as soon as you make a comparison to Nazi Germany. The differences are so extraordinary that the similarities can never actually carry equal weight. Peterson describes the Nazis killing one group of people (without their prior knowledge or consent) and then moving on to the next group and the next group until they have massacred six million people. But he makes no mention of everything else that made that possible: the virulent hatred and anger and paranoia among the general population, the destruction of democracy and the courts and the German resistance. Germany had to become a totalitarian police state before it could carry out the Holocaust.

Canada has more than a few quite sinister problems, but it's nothing even approaching Nazi Germany, and it doesn't get any closer to that by granting its people MORE power and autonomy.

Legalising assisted suicide in Canada doesn't irretrievably hand the government the power of life and death over its population. It hands the population a basic human right. They call it taking your own life. For some people it's the only moment when their lives are truly their own.

 

[FuneralCry]

Denying people the option of legalised assisted suicide will always be inhumane and unacceptable no matter what. It's just absurd wanting to deny people this as we are all just destined to die anyway, we are only waiting around to die so people deserve the option to take control over their inevitable fate in a peaceful way, there's no benefit to suffering so unnecessarily until one decays from old age.

 

[CaliCatCharlie]

I can't believe some people still listen and follow this quack.

 

[alrondlondo]

How many people here do not like the person who carries the base))

 

[MeltingBrain]

The differences are so extraordinary that the similarities can never actually carry equal weight.

Well put .

 

[angel31]

Jordan Peterson (world renowned psychologist) had a very disappointing take on Canada's Assisted suicide law . ()
If anybody wants to read up on Canada's new assisted suicide law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada)

He makes sense in the beginning of the video:

- First 2.5 mins he told his personal story about his suicidal ideation and even considered going to Switzerland to end it all .

- He recognizes that we allow dogs a peaceful exit. He quotes Nietzsche- "You haven't lived long if you haven't seen that a compassionate hand sometimes kills .

This is where things go off the rails :

- He doesn't think government should conduct such assisted suicide programs because he thinks it can slide into what Nazis did to mentally ill people and gays .
But MAiD is voluntary , there is a HUGE difference between voluntarily asking for a merciful ending and executing people whether they like it or not . The latter is not in the law and there are obviously no plans to include it . It's a far-fetched hypothetical transition which JP is grasping on to make a point .

- Here comes his worse take . He thinks if anyone should have the right to take the decision (to the extent that they do) to assist in suicide , it's the family that has the "right and responsibility" . What if the family member/s are evil ? eg. a son trying to get inheritance, a personal feud OR What if the family members take the decision based on incorrect medical assessment ?

These MAiD laws prime-facie look very good to me . Although what you think and what's actually happening on the ground can have huge discrepancies but JP fails to point any of them out .

What are your thoughts on JP's take on the issue ?

Jordan Peterson mostly makes propaganda in my opinion. I wouldnt believe anything this asshole says.
His takes are really bad even in this regard. But I can actually understand the idea, that you just dont want to make it legal to kill anyone just because of principle if you understand what I mean. This is also a really big objection to capital punishment… I totally disagree with his take, I think a legal way to let people help kill you is really important, but I can "understand" where he is coming from. (But its obv totally different to the nazis don't misunderstand me)
Does that make sense?

now I'm kinda thinking maybe I should give MAID a try. If I present "just right" im sure I can explain the suffering... I'd feel so disheartened & have less energy than I do now if I got denied. So that's what's stopping me right

I just think its a huge pain in the ass to get through all the shit… even if you get a really nice death in the end… it must be so hard to get approved. And take so long… and everyone would know… like you would have to talk to your family and friends and you both know that you are going to ctb in a hour. Thats so fucking scary to me…

 

[Aisley]

He usually "shows the work" quite well within his thought processes, but all I see here is avoidance. Understandable if it's a touchy subject for him, but then maybe he should say that. People would understand. He even saw the moment where he was skirting around the individual's choice, but he kept going. Whatever.
i get people not liking this being a government controlled service. I think everyone gets that. But the private sector is no option, either. Although, many of us right here have made that work, I suppose. I just can't get over the visual of a neighbour renting out his garage for an hour, along with the use of his 78 Pontiac - under the understanding that the car never moves an inch, of course.

 

[MeltingBrain]

But I can actually understand the idea, that you just dont want to make it legal to kill anyone just because of principle if you understand what I mean. This is also a really big objection to capital punishment… I

Sorry , I didn't understand what you meant .

that you just dont want to make it legal to kill anyone just because of principle

Could you expand on this .

 

[angel31]

Sorry , I didn't understand what you meant .

Could you expand on this .

What I meant was, that you dont want killing someone to be legal in any way. Just because of the morality behind it. Either you dont want to have the risk of anyone exploiting it, no matter how small the risk is, or you just dont believe in utlitarist ethics but in the opposite (I forgot what thats called lol(edit: its called deontology. The basis is that you dont look at the results of a action but at the morality of the action itself, and some actions like "murder" could be seen intrinsically bad(dont quote me on that lol)))
Sorry I am kind of bad at explaining this :/

 

[Tobacco]

He basically advocated for people to break the law and involuntary euthanize your loved ones. What the fuck.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Jordan Peterson (world renowned psychologist) had a very disappointing take on Canada's Assisted suicide law . ()
If anybody wants to read up on Canada's new assisted suicide law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada)

He makes sense in the beginning of the video:

- First 2.5 mins he told his personal story about his suicidal ideation and even considered going to Switzerland to end it all .

- He recognizes that we allow dogs a peaceful exit. He quotes Nietzsche- "You haven't lived long if you haven't seen that a compassionate hand sometimes kills .

This is where things go off the rails :

- He doesn't think government should conduct such assisted suicide programs because he thinks it can slide into what Nazis did to mentally ill people and gays .
But MAiD is voluntary , there is a HUGE difference between voluntarily asking for a merciful ending and executing people whether they like it or not . The latter is not in the law and there are obviously no plans to include it . It's a far-fetched hypothetical transition which JP is grasping on to make a point .

- Here comes his worse take . He thinks if anyone should have the right to take the decision (to the extent that they do) to assist in suicide , it's the family that has the "right and responsibility" . What if the family member/s are evil ? eg. a son trying to get inheritance, a personal feud OR What if the family members take the decision based on incorrect medical assessment ?

These MAiD laws prime-facie look very good to me . Although what you think and what's actually happening on the ground can have huge discrepancies but JP fails to point any of them out .

What are your thoughts on JP's take on the issue ?

He is a prolife asshole!!!

 

[SpiderLink]

Jordan Peterson (world renowned psychologist) had a very disappointing take on Canada's Assisted suicide law . ()
If anybody wants to read up on Canada's new assisted suicide law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada)

He makes sense in the beginning of the video:

- First 2.5 mins he told his personal story about his suicidal ideation and even considered going to Switzerland to end it all .

- He recognizes that we allow dogs a peaceful exit. He quotes Nietzsche- "You haven't lived long if you haven't seen that a compassionate hand sometimes kills .

This is where things go off the rails :

- He doesn't think government should conduct such assisted suicide programs because he thinks it can slide into what Nazis did to mentally ill people and gays .
But MAiD is voluntary , there is a HUGE difference between voluntarily asking for a merciful ending and executing people whether they like it or not . The latter is not in the law and there are obviously no plans to include it . It's a far-fetched hypothetical transition which JP is grasping on to make a point .

- Here comes his worse take . He thinks if anyone should have the right to take the decision (to the extent that they do) to assist in suicide , it's the family that has the "right and responsibility" . What if the family member/s are evil ? eg. a son trying to get inheritance, a personal feud OR What if the family members take the decision based on incorrect medical assessment ?

These MAiD laws prime-facie look very good to me . Although what you think and what's actually happening on the ground can have huge discrepancies but JP fails to point any of them out .

What are your thoughts on JP's take on the issue ?

It doesn't matter for his opinion, I'm Canadian myself, because MAiD will happen in Canada, I highly doubt they'll push back the date another year