Discussion Japanese suicide culture - Seppuku and Kamikaze - Overcoming SI

[StateOfMind]

Looks like they have it all figured out.

I understand that these methods may not be favorable or even accessible to many. The point being is how they managed to overcome their survival instinct despite such adverse conditions.

What are your thoughts on this?

Seppuku - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kamikaze - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Meditation guide]

What are your thoughts on this?

I have given up trying to understand much of what humans do.

 

[Ghost2211]

Suicide is viewed so differently in so many cultures. There's really no "right" answer. I love seeing all the different viewpoints.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I don't have any source and I'm not even Japanese, just Chinese so forgive my ignorance, but I definitely read somewhere that seppuku is actually relatively new to Japanese culture. It was basically constructed as propaganda for WWII era Japan and it worked in getting soldiers who romanticized the Sengoku era to follow this new Bushido code to always die in honor of their country. I can bet a bunch of people here aren't willing to ctb for that reason in fact a lot of us seem to want to do it in spite of our country and not to honor it.

Even if it is a real ancient tradition, then what does that mean? Is it really better for your country to suddenly embrace suicide only in cases where people are deemed unfit to live by society? It's already kind of like this in modern Japan which is why their suicide rates are so high. Many parents there are actually less likely to grieve (or at least show grief) for their dead children if they felt it was necessary for them to ctb. What we have now in some western countries isn't exactly ideal but personally I think it's better than society actively encouraging your ctb not out of concern or respect for your choices, but because they just don't want you around anymore.

Then again, maybe if that did happen, the methods would become more available and could even be further advanced upon to be near-perfect. In fact, I've said this before but theoretically if you really want to uproot society and convince everyone to embrace suicide as a choice people should be allowed to make, you have to start appealing to their selfishness. Right now people are selfishly trying to make themselves feel better by thinking they've saved lives just for talking down people who want to commit suicide and that's the main reason why so many are pro-life. Well I say, be the change you want to see. Make it so the majority of people also want to die/want you to die. Society is pretty shitty now but it could still be oh so much worse. If you're serious about wanting society to allow you to ctb, you have to make it so more people would want it for themselves.

 

[Racon]

Group pressure can be very effective. As well the reward of honour and increased social status upon death.

I think Islam does a better job of motivating suicide attacks. The promise of seventy-two virgin girls in exchange for a little bombing must seem quite the bargain for those that believe in it.

Basically social pressure and rewards can overcome SI.

 

[the witch’s lament]

seppuku/harakiri are techniques meant to maintain or keep your honor in tact. if the other option is to use tactics in battle considered to be dishonorable to the code of yourself, lord or shogun or by dying to such techniques in combat, then by fulfilling harakiri you aren't rewarded with anything. you are just insuring you receive in the afterlife what you pledged to do while you live. kamikaze/martyrdom is kind of the opposite in the sense that you are fulfilling the highest expectations of your creed to attain something you couldn't otherwise. it also sets an example for warriors after you.

 

[StateOfMind]

seppuku/harakiri are techniques meant to maintain or keep your honor in tact.

Life has humilated me enough, the only honorable thing left for me is to ctb.

 

[the witch’s lament]

Life has humilated me enough, the only honorable thing left for me is to ctb.

the reason I mention honor is because that's exactly how they were able to overcome their SI. if they didn't die in an honorable way they left behind a legacy of dishonor that would potentially stain their family/clan for generations. in regards to harakiri, they just just found that self-disembowelment was the most difficult way to die so to go through with it, you show your dedication to the code. it is obviously not practical nowadays but the japanese still have these principals of being honorable woven into their culture.

 

[Rational man]

The Japanese are honourable. Less stigmatized. They have record numbers I think partly because of this.

 

[Hurt]

Pretty interesting thread. Samurais weren't seen as crazy or mentally ill people.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Are people from Japan here to give some insider information?

 

[og.]

suicide bombing is haram but it does encourage you to fight till your last breath and take all the risks because dying in battle is the greatest honour and it erases all your sins
thats why i wanna go and join some hamas group if im too pussy to kill myself before college ends

 

[Makko]

If you were in a situation that required you to commit seppuku in practice you only had a choice between doing that, being killed by someone else, or live the rest of your life as a fugitive pariah (which many did). So seppuku was an overall attractive pragmatic option and not the defiant act of grandiosity it's made out to be.

You're also supposed to have a ritual assistant to behead you right when you stab yourself. It's not supposed to be painful and you don't really have to overcome survival instincts because you're not the one who does the killing.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

The suicide rate in Japan is 15.1 per 100 000 population and 16.1 in the USA. Greenland is supposed to have the highest suicide rate in the world with more than 100. Alcohol and not enough sleep in the summer seem to cause depressions.

 

[wanttodie]

yes Looks like they have it all figured out.

 

[Bookscover]

Looks like they have it all figured out.

I understand that these methods may not be favorable or even accessible to many. The point being is how they managed to overcome their survival instinct despite such adverse conditions.

What are your thoughts on this?

Seppuku - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Kamikaze - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Social Pressure is one hell of a thing man.

 

[noname223]

The Japanese are honourable. Less stigmatized. They have record numbers I think partly because of this.

Sorry but that is not true. Suicide in Japan is even more stigmatized than in Western culture. You can observe a similar behaviour concerning mental illnesses. Though it is probably right that due to the fact that christianity isn't that common in Japan they have a different view on suicide.

I wanted to make a thread about sepukku. But there were already a lot of them. I feel very ashamed lately. When I feel that way I tend to brutal suicide fantasies. When I have the feel of being embarassed I wish a violent death. Maybe that is similar to sepukku. This special relation to honor. But every time I finally approached suicide seriously I always wished for a peaceful method.
I cannot really understand how these people could be that determined to torture themselves in such a brutal way. I think it is good this method is not used anymore. It is rather stupid to be that obsessed with honor. On the other hand maybe I am wrong. Who am I to judge about the feelings of another person? Obviously it is influenced in which time era you live.

 

[Rational man]

Thanks. I didn't know until now.

 

[noname223]

Thanks. I didn't know until now.

Cool that you are responding this fast. You had to wait a long time for the answer.

 

[motel rooms]

dying in battle is the greatest honour and it erases all your sins
thats why i wanna go and join some hamas group if im too pussy to kill myself before college ends

Fuck you, Hamas & all other terrorist organizations.

 

[lostundead]

I cannot really understand how these people could be that determined to torture themselves in such a brutal way.

They didn't. Once they stabbed themselves in the stomach they had a partner who would chop their head off, so it was only painful for a very short time. Thats why, realistically, this method isn't possible anymore, unless you find someone who would go to prison for you just so you can have an epic samurai suicide. Only very violent criminals, if they wanted to regain their honor before dying, not because of some afterlife bs, would do this method without a partner and bleed themselves to death.

 

[Ligottian]

After WW2 was over, all Japanese officers had to surrender their swords to the Allies. My late uncle was stationed briefly in Japan in the Navy in the early 50's. He brought home two blades in a scabbard, which he probably purchased on the black market. One was a large, medieval looking ceremonial sword. I have it now. You can nick yourself by just touching the blade. There is some symbolic stuff on the handle. An embedded pebble of gold. A small metal carving of a frog and a snail, the latter making what looks like circular journey.

In the scabbard, a dagger was tied by a sash to the sword. The former was what would be used in any belly slicing.

My most cherished heirloom.

 

[og.]

Fuck you, Hamas & all other terrorist organizations.

this is old af and I wasnt serious but im not like that anymore

 

[raghu1977]

this is old af and I wasnt serious but im not like that anymore

Good for you. Dont even joke about stuff like that.

We all have a right to do what we want with our lives; including ending it. But we dont have the right to decide for others or harm them

 

[Antigonish]

I don't have any source and I'm not even Japanese, just Chinese so forgive my ignorance, but I definitely read somewhere that seppuku is actually relatively new to Japanese culture. It was basically constructed as propaganda for WWII era Japan and it worked in getting soldiers who romanticized the Sengoku era to follow this new Bushido code to always die in honor of their country. I can bet a bunch of people here aren't willing to ctb for that reason in fact a lot of us seem to want to do it in spite of our country and not to honor it.

Even if it is a real ancient tradition, then what does that mean? Is it really better for your country to suddenly embrace suicide only in cases where people are deemed unfit to live by society? It's already kind of like this in modern Japan which is why their suicide rates are so high. Many parents there are actually less likely to grieve (or at least show grief) for their dead children if they felt it was necessary for them to ctb. What we have now in some western countries isn't exactly ideal but personally I think it's better than society actively encouraging your ctb not out of concern or respect for your choices, but because they just don't want you around anymore.

Then again, maybe if that did happen, the methods would become more available and could even be further advanced upon to be near-perfect. In fact, I've said this before but theoretically if you really want to uproot society and convince everyone to embrace suicide as a choice people should be allowed to make, you have to start appealing to their selfishness. Right now people are selfishly trying to make themselves feel better by thinking they've saved lives just for talking down people who want to commit suicide and that's the main reason why so many are pro-life. Well I say, be the change you want to see. Make it so the majority of people also want to die/want you to die. Society is pretty shitty now but it could still be oh so much worse. If you're serious about wanting society to allow you to ctb, you have to make it so more people would want it for themselves.

It was a real tradition. But was often an option provided. Either execution or seppuku. It was considered honorable to let a respected opponent die by his own hands, rather than that of his enemy or an executioner. The modern distortion made it seem like warrior's death/ Valhalla. Which is of European, German, mostly north German origin. But can be seen throughout history to fool very young men into becoming cannon fodder, ie. 31 virgins.

Either way, the origins of seppuku was honorable and showed your bravery as samurai, even through death. Not choosing seppuku was considered the cowards way. Allot of modern takes on the act down play it negatively, because it's really just justified suicide.

Also the act was usually followed by a quick beheading... So not really suicide.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

It was a real tradition. But was often an option provided. Either execution or seppuku. It was considered honorable to let a respected opponent die by his own hands, rather than that of his enemy or an executioner. The modern distortion made it seem like warrior's death/ Valhalla. Which is of European, German, mostly north German origin. But can be seen throughout history to fool very young men into becoming cannon fodder, ie. 31 virgins.

Either way, the origins of seppuku was honorable and showed your bravery as samurai, even through death. Not choosing seppuku was considered the cowards way. Allot of modern takes on the act down play it negatively, because it's really just justified suicide.

Also the act was usually followed by a quick beheading... So not really suicide.

Interesting. It still feels like something done out of a sense of duty rather than freedom of choice but maybe that's because most methods they used seem too violent for me to possibly want to choose.