D

Dontfeelmuchpain

Member
Jul 2, 2020
12
So I have been hospitalized against my will (thankfully health service in my country isn't fully private sector) and during my convo with some doctor she told me that there is always possibility that you can be held in hospital for the rest of your life if you seem to be danger to yourself.
Some people seem to be viewing life as a sacred value and I tottaly get it but in situation when everything was tried to help this person and nothing worked...
I think it's cruel thing to do to any alive being. Letting it suffer just becouse letting it go is "bad"
It's my first post on forum, give me your ideas on this
 
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Deleted member 19654

Deleted member 19654

Working towards recovery.
Jul 9, 2020
1,628
I wouldn't like it either if I was hospitalised and prevented from being able to ctb and being allowed to suffer by being kept alive. I can empathise with not wanting to suffer anymore but if I was a doctor and my job was to save lives, I also wouldn't feel comfortable in helping someone die unless it's an extreme case where euthanasia can be considered
 
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somniummalum

Student
Jul 3, 2020
119
Happened to me to once. Got stuck there for 2 month.
A lawyer came in and basically told me since I have tried to ctb, they can keep me here as long is they want, give me all meds they want etc.

It is such utter bullshit I could scream tbh.
 
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Soulless Angel

Soulless Angel

Did someone say Rum?
Jul 6, 2020
1,272
Interested to know what country you are in.
I thought those in for life, are those that are not only a danger to themselves, but a danger to society as well?
 
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woxihuanni

woxihuanni

Illuminated
Aug 19, 2019
3,299
Really? They will feed you for free for 50, 60 years? I think that sort of torture is economically unsustainable for them.
 
D

Dontfeelmuchpain

Member
Jul 2, 2020
12
Interested to know what country you are in.
I thought those in for life, are those that are not only a danger to themselves, but a danger to society as well?
I live in Poland and from what I understand being danger only to myself is enough to this absurd situation happening.
 
B

BrokenBeing

Isolation or death
Jun 27, 2020
16
People are maniacs, you should always expect the worst from them
 
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DeadButDreaming

DeadButDreaming

Specialist
Jun 16, 2020
362
I'm sorry to hear of your suffering.

Captivating people against their will is undoubtedly cruel, but I think the urgent desire to save others from dying is an evolutionary remnant.

I haven't heard a logical argument against voluntary suicide.
 
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Dontfeelmuchpain

Member
Jul 2, 2020
12
Really? They will feed you for free for 50, 60 years? I think that sort of torture is economically unsustainable for them.
The food from the health service is really bad quality and cheap. I think it's porpuse is only to make people that are hospitalized survive for a few months max. Without any food from the outside being on the "only hospital food diet" will definitely make any human lose a few kilograms for longer therm. Going further i think eating only this kind of food would probably make anyone get some serious health problems (not mental health related). For example I can point to soups here which are literally only water. Easy to made for lots of people for small cost.
I'm sorry to hear of your suffering.

Captivating people against their will is undoubtedly cruel, but I think the urgent desire to save others from dying is an evolutionary remnant.

I haven't heard a logical argument against voluntary suicide.
I agree, I think there can be many reasons as to why one would want to commit suicide. Some folks in old times did it BC of honour (feudal Japan), some people might face incurable disease that will only go worse or simply they cant outlive their past experience and the rest of their life will be just a downfall and so on and so on... But every suicide today is blamed on depression. It's kinda odd to me that in those so liberal times we can't decide about such simple things.
 
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Dontfeelmuchpain

Member
Jul 2, 2020
12
I wouldn't like it either if I was hospitalised and prevented from being able to ctb and being allowed to suffer by being kept alive. I can empathise with not wanting to suffer anymore but if I was a doctor and my job was to save lives, I also wouldn't feel comfortable in helping someone die unless it's an extreme case where euthanasia can be considered
If the law doesn't Abide it and it means criminal responsibility to the docs... Yeah, probably would act the same way as they did but it still doesn't make any sense to me to make someone who can't be cured or anything suffer furthermore (not thinking about myself rn, I think there are still a few things that might be worth a try before another attempt)
This is not discussed often enough.
Just got this thought that it is kind of easy or us (society) to blame everything on some mental disorder like depression rather than to look deeper into the true nature of problems and would one want to take himself out of the picture. Maybe the idea of suicide being ok would be really dangerous for us as a species. Idk, just a thought
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
Really? They will feed you for free for 50, 60 years? I think that sort of torture is economically unsustainable for them.

A brief analysis of the sustainability, informed by my studies of several theorists.*

Cultural myths are used to get the populace to buy into the power of government and other power structures. Myth reveals and distorts. For instance, the myth of the value of human life seems to show that the government supports it, and it engenders strong emotions, which are the hook. If the masses buy into this, then they agree that the goverment should lock up anyone who is harming the sanctictity and value of their own life, for their own good. Therefore the government is out for their own good as well. They pay taxes to support the government, and feel good about it because the dollars ostensibly go to programs that support them while actually controlling them. What they do not recognize until it's too late, if ever, is that the government imprisons those who want the ultimate control of their own lives, that is, to do no harm to others, only to get free of their own bodies and lives. Every social good done by the government is a gilding on a cage. Being locked up for one's own good is even worse, it's a prison disguised as health care, and makes an example of those who choose self-determination by making it appear unpalatable, worthy of imprisonment, loss of liberty and self-control, and reinforces negative judgment and condemnation against those who attempt to claim it. Investing in them to live is an investment in the power of the governmental power structures, and it is financially profitable because the government and parasitic industries get paid by tax and health insurance dollars; in the States, Medicare is heavily invested. The myths are like drugs that cocoon the truth in a comforting gauze, but inside that cocoon are the threats of bars and needles if one dares look too closely and reject the false truths presented. There is the threat of a loss of support from government and society, of being made an example of, and of total loss of liberty -- as if the liberty truly existed in the first place.

A quick look at a myth analyzed by Roland Barthes for comparison. He used the example of a French magazine cover in which a member of an Algerian youth military was saluting the French flag, from the Sixties or very early Seventies. Algeria was a colony that lost its independence to French control. The photo appeared patriotic, the face uplifted toward the flag, the salute...a salute -- honor, deference, acceptance, loyalty. This presented a myth that Algerians were in agreement with the colonial control and in fact aspired to keep it going. French readers had their nationalistic pride stirred by the powerful image, which was the emotional hook. It revealed French colonial oppression, but distorted it so that it brought about feelings that supported validation of and reinforcement of violence and oppression. French citizens felt "right," and felt France was "right." How could anyone protest when clearly there was so much acceptance, so much good, so much opportunity and hope for this dark-skinned youth and for his fellow youth, who would also fight for the French flag, not against it?






*Michel Foucalt, historian and theorist of power, control, surveillance, and the constructs of mental illness and homosexuality, also the father of discourse theory and analysis. See the Wikipedia entry on his book Madness and Civilization, it's a great read, very thorough, and much easier to read than the book. It's a historical analysis of how "mental illness" came into existence at a time of mass imprisonment for debt during a worldwide financial crisis in which the "mentally ill" were swept up, labeled, imprisoned, put on display, led to the birth of psychiatry, and the birth of the mental hospital. Other writings of Foucault discuss governmental power structures, I recommend Security, Territory, Population and Discipline and Punish, which are highly relevant since at least the World Trade Center bombings and the overt increase of surveillance. Also see the writings of Thomas Szaz, such as The Myth of Mental Illness.

Other discourse/cultural theorists and analysts including Norman Fairclough and Stuart Hall.

Roland Barthes, semiologist who developed the structure of myth as a means of social control.

For those who are into this stuff, I don't include Baudrillard in mythology analysis. I'm not into post-structuralism, Foucault is as close as I get (he rejected the post-structural label, he just wrote obscurely and did historical analysis in his own way), and I didn't get into Baudrillard like Barthes. I know many value him and respect him, even find him better than Barthes, but I do not.
 
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D

Dontfeelmuchpain

Member
Jul 2, 2020
12
A brief analysis of the sustainability, informed by my studies of several theorists.*

Cultural myths are used to get the populace to buy into the power of government and other power structures. Myth reveals and distorts. For instance, the myth of the value of human life seems to show that the government supports it, and it engenders strong emotions, which are the hook. If the masses buy into this, then they agree that the goverment should lock up anyone who is harming the sanctictity and value of their own life, for their own good. Therefore the government is out for their own good as well. They pay taxes to support the government, and feel good about it because the dollars ostensibly go to programs that support them while actually controlling them. What they do not recognize until it's too late, if ever, is that the government imprisons those who want the ultimate control of their own lives, that is, to do no harm to others, only to get free of their own bodies and lives. Every social good done by the government is a gilding on a cage. Being locked up for one's own good is even worse, it's a prison disguised as health care, and makes an example of those who choose self-determination by making it appear unpalatable, worthy of imprisonment, loss of liberty and self-control, and reinforces negative judgment and condemnation against those who attempt to claim it. Investing in them to live is an investment in the power of the governmental power structures, and it is financially profitable because the government and parasitic industries get paid by tax and health insurance dollars; in the States, Medicare is heavily invested. The myths are like drugs that cocoon the truth in a comforting gauze, but inside that cocoon are the threats of bars and needles if one dares look too closely and reject the false truths presented. There is the threat of a loss of support from government and society, of being made an example of, and of total loss of liberty -- as if the liberty truly existed in the first place.

A quick look at a myth analyzed by Roland Barthes for comparison. He used the example of a French magazine cover in which a member of an Algerian youth was saluting the French flag, from the Sixties or very early Seventies. Algeria was a colony that lost its independence to French control. The photo appeared patriotic, the face uplifted toward the flag, the salute...a salute -- honor, deference, acceptance, loyalty. This presented a myth that Algerians were in agreement with the colonial control and in fact aspired to keep it going. French readers had their nationalistic pride stirred by the powerful image, which was the emotional hook. It revealed French colonial oppression, but distorted it so that it brought about feelings that supported validation of and reinforcement of violence and oppression. French citizens felt "right," and felt France was "right." How could anyone protest when clearly there was so much acceptance, so much good, so much opportunity and hope for this dark-skinned youth and for his fellow youth, who would also fight for the French flag, not against it?






*Michel Foucalt, historian and theorist of power, control, surveillance, and the constructs of mental illness and homosexuality, also the father of discourse theory and analysis. See the Wikipedia entry on his book Madness and Civilization, it's a great read, very thorough, and much easier to read than the book. It's a historical analysis of how "mental illness" came into existence at a time of mass imprisonment for debt during a worldwide financial crisis in which the "mentally ill" were swept up, labeled, imprisoned, put on display, led to the birth of psychiatry, and the birth of the mental hospital. Other writings of Foucault discuss governmental power structures, I recommend Security, Territory, Population and Discipline and Punish, which are highly relevant since at least the World Trade Center bombings and the overt increase of surveillance. Also see the writings of Thomas Szaz, such as The Myth of Mental Illness.

Other discourse/cultural theorists and analysts including Norman Fairclough and Stuart Hall.

Roland Barthes, semiologist who developed the structure of myth as a means of social control.

For those who are into this stuff, I don't include Baudrillard in mythology analysis. I'm not into post-structuralism, Foucault is as close as I get (he rejected the post-structural label, he just wrote obscurely and did historical analysis in his own way), and I didn't get into Baudrillard like Barthes. I know many value him and respect him, even find him better than Barthes, but I do not.
Such a great response supported with a lots of studies. I will check out those people work.
 
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Desideratum

Member
Jun 8, 2020
20
If the law doesn't Abide it and it means criminal responsibility to the docs... Yeah, probably would act the same way as they did but it still doesn't make any sense to me to make someone who can't be cured or anything suffer furthermore (not thinking about myself rn, I think there are still a few things that might be worth a try before another attempt)

Just got this thought that it is kind of easy or us (society) to blame everything on some mental disorder like depression rather than to look deeper into the true nature of problems and would one want to take himself out of the picture. Maybe the idea of suicide being ok would be really dangerous for us as a species. Idk, just a thought
Completely agree. The mainstream sheeple lack introspection.
 
I

itsallover

Arcanist
Jun 29, 2018
478
Thats bullshit! In the US you get sent to the state hospital after you do some crazy shit but first you need to be in a regular psych ward for months. When I got to state, I was real pleasant and the doctor could tell that whatever I did was out of character. Just act like a saint and youll get out. Do a little bit of ass kissing too like your treatment has helped me so much I am so grateful to you etc.
 
lostangel

lostangel

Enlightened
Mar 22, 2019
1,051
If I was told I was going to serve life in a mental hospital even though I've never committed a crime. I think I would go into a rage.
 
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EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
Some of them know it's cruel but their only concern is their license and their wallet. The rest are extremely naive and privileged people that perform mental gymnastics to convince themselves that they're a good person in order to feed their ego. People that genuinely care about you and have a good moral compass will never try to control you or use force on you.


"What, then, are psychotherapists and what do they sell to or impose on their clients? Insofar as they use force, psychotherapists are judges and jailers, inquisitors and torturers; insofar as they eschew it, they are secular priests and pseudomedical rhetoricians. Their services consist of coercions and constraints imposed on individuals on behalf of other persons or social groups, or they consist of contracts and conversations entered into by individuals on their own behalf." ― Thomas Szasz, The Myth of Psychotherapy


"The medical profession's classic prescription for coping with such predicaments, Primum non nocere (First, do no harm), sounds better than it is. In fact, it fails to tell us precisely what we need to know: What is harm and what is help?
However, two things about the challenge of helping the helpless are clear. One is that, like beauty and ugliness, help and harm often lie in the eyes of the beholder--in our case, in the often divergently directed eyes of the benefactor and his beneficiary. The other is that harming people in the name of helping them is one of mankind's favorite pastimes." ― Thomas Stephen Szasz
 
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Black Swan

Black Swan

Member
Mar 18, 2020
6
I wouldn't like it either if I was hospitalised and prevented from being able to ctb and being allowed to suffer by being kept alive. I can empathise with not wanting to suffer anymore but if I was a doctor and my job was to save lives, I also wouldn't feel comfortable in helping someone die unless it's an extreme case where euthanasia can be considered
To be it would be better to die than having people holding me hostage in a hospital against my will for the rest of my life (like what???!!!) and I wouldn't want other people to go through that too
 
I

Imani

Member
Apr 24, 2020
14
This is why people refrain from being honest with thoughts and urges cause it's often ALL they hear. Despite the pain and presenting problems the fact that whatever you are bearing is so grave that you want to end it even peacefully is too much for someone unfamiliar to understand. They are basically saying, "Your pain is irrelevant, even if we have the power/resources to address it ... let's focus on those urges to die." As if they were (always) separate.
 
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BridgeJumper

BridgeJumper

The Arsonist
Apr 7, 2019
1,194
Happened to me to once. Got stuck there for 2 month.
A lawyer came in and basically told me since I have tried to ctb, they can keep me here as long is they want, give me all meds they want etc.

It is such utter bullshit I could scream tbh.

Went throught this mamy times and honestly have the same sentiment. The last few stays I was so pissed I couldnt even raise my voice at them. I was so pissed at having my privacy and living rights invaded, I felt calm xd
Such a waste of taxpayers money, and it didnt make me want to live like at all. Its like those cult things. An imposed positivity cult
 
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