Is wanting to die really irrational?

[Chabrychek]

Is the decision to commit always irrational? Or is it our survival instincts, our biology that make us think this way? Can a person truly rationally, after weighing the pros and cons, reach the conclusion that they would rather die than live? Or is the desire to end one's life always a disturbed thought?
Because yes, most suicidal people are mentally ill, which theoretically changes their assessment of reality, but why assume their decision is unjustified? After all, they know best the psychological pain and other problems they endure daily.

 

[Mr.Ruben]

I personally think it's one of those things we cannot know, or don't know yet. We know our pros and cons of death, yet we still continue but don't want to? probably because something is stopping us, now let's figure out what is it, I truly don't.

 

[AgnesTachyon]

no. whatever reason a person has to preferring to die is always valid. i dont care what others say.​

 

[itsgone2]

It can be rational. When suffering outweighs pleasure or contentment, then what's the point?

 

[ZwartHartje]

I can't even see how it would be irrational. I think it's the same disregard for someone else's feelings, situation and right to self-determination as in those who disregard for example gay or transgender people, or asexual people like myself... Like, "why can't you be *normal* like everyone else, and just do and be what's expected of you and fulfill the role assigned to you?"
Too many people don't question that. For too many, the extent of their unhappiness has to become too unbearable before they even dare to question it.
How many things were once considered "normal" before it was realized that they were wrong? Homophobia, racism, slavery, and so much else.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

the belief that most suicidal people are mentally ill is a lie . suicide can be rational as the most horrible things outweigh the pleasurable things. and a human can be caught in a trap of unbearable suffering where the only way out is suicide.

to me it's rational to want to exit this hell where you can suffer unending continuous every second unbearable pain. why would i or anyone want to take such risks and to grow old?.

i believe one can fall into a trap of unbearable pain so bad it's a billion times worse than the worst thing you can imagine.

but imo nowhere do we see the very many horrible things that can trap a human. we've seen a few cases here of people trapped in intolerable pain or suffering. i've seen many just here over the years. but seems that most of the population 99% think nothing like this can happen to them . i think it's irrational to think that way.

i also believe it's not rational to want to grow old . i worked in a nursing home. it's hell.

i would never want to be what a human is a brain that can suffer unending constant continuous unbearable pain.

why would i want to be a small animal , cells that can suffer such extreme torture for which there is always a risk?

and then have to be a slave to work so hard just to risk extreme suffering and get old which will be extreme suffering.

there is always a chance of a stroke, or brain damage while living for any human or animal with a brain .

i don't know who would want to work so hard every damn day doing endless chores , trying to fulfill needs that there was never a reason for these burdens to exist . you're a slave to the body , mind, society , other people etc. .

you wake up 'oh shit i have to get up and shower brush my teeth wash clothes , o i didn't take out the damn trash i have to , i have to i have to . this thing is broken must fix it . now stressing through traffic to get to work work all day then back again to do more chores and take care of more problems. and this is normal shit for average normies. you're hungry , thirsty all the time . one has to was the body every day , clean everything fix everything. and it's always been the case cause 50,000 years ago there were no super markets or uber eats no you had to walk barefoot miles to try to kill an animal with a rock just to eat..

if you don';t work hard to have shelter food then bad hunger pain , the agony of extreme thirst, cold wind etc. then you have make sure you eat right sleep etc, hope you don't get robbed hacked attacked put in prison unfairly ... hope some disease , accident , parasite ,stroke doesn't get you today. and this again is a normal avarage human's day. then repeat again the next day for 80 fucking years. but that they tell us is a beuatiful gift . all this just to exist to get old and risk extreme torture.

then you get a bad flu, unbearable nausea, grief from a dead relative , broken heart , depression

then there is grief, sadness , bullying , harrassment, injustice , problems , sickness, diseases,disabilities. again normal average.

but there are even worse conditions that torture a human constantly with unbearable pain . and you still have to put up with all the above but in a disabled condition.

 

[MeSauce]

It can be rational. For instance, would you agree or disagree with a terminally ill patient who choses to end their life because they are suffering? If you agree, that rules out the absolutionists in 1 argument. Suicide can be rational in certain circumstances.

 

[wornoutandacedic]

Is the decision to commit always irrational? Or is it our survival instincts, our biology that make us think this way? Can a person truly rationally, after weighing the pros and cons, reach the conclusion that they would rather die than live? Or is the desire to end one's life always a disturbed thought?
Because yes, most suicidal people are mentally ill, which theoretically changes their assessment of reality, but why assume their decision is unjustified? After all, they know best the psychological pain and other problems they endure daily.

Is the decision to commit always irrational? Or is it our survival instincts, our biology that make us think this way? Can a person truly rationally, after weighing the pros and cons, reach the conclusion that they would rather die than live? Or is the desire to end one's life always a disturbed thought?
Because yes, most suicidal people are mentally ill, which theoretically changes their assessment of reality, but why assume their decision is unjustified? After all, they know best the psychological pain and other problems they endure daIily

for me its rational, especially after years and years of trying different strategies and ways to mitigate or deal with the underlying cause. regardless of that i see the choice to commit as the ultimate way to excercice free will, especially when you dont have a graspable reason why, even if everything you do turns to gold and you are living your "full life" as perceived by others it should be okay to just pick up and leave

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't understand how wanting true permanent peace from all future unnecessary suffering in this existence that is just waiting to die anyway could ever be such, existence to me is a terrible mistake that just causes all this cruelty and suffering all for the sake of it with no limit as to how much one can be tortured.

I'll just always see existence as the problem, no matter what I'll just always prefer the peace of non-existence over suffering in this terrible, torturous existence, there are no disadvantages to never suffering again yet there is no limit as to how much one can be tortured in this futile, deeply undesirable existence that was so unnecessary in the first place. No matter what this existence should never be imposed and it's so terrible how humans cause all this suffering by doing so, for me ceasing to exist is the positive solution, I find it so terrible how a human can suffer in this torturous existence for decades longer just to face the terrible extreme agony of old age, for me ceasing to exist will always be suffering prevention.

 

[PeaceSeeker83]

I think it is rational. I think deep down most people know life is pointless and with varying degrees of suffering so it makes sense that some people will eventually end their lives. Some people may be insane but from an outsiders point of view these types of nutters are better off out of it (think of those people walking around yelling and talking to themselves etc).

 

[Forever Sleep]

Surely, it isn't irrational to wish to be free from pain? Even if that pain is being contributed to by a skewed, depressed perspective- if little can be done to change that, then- it's surely still a genuine problem.

Is the 'answer'- try countless medications and therapies/ treatments even reasonable? When they likely all come with side effects. Isn't it actually rational thinking to decide whether we want to put ourselves through that or not?

Would we claim a cancer patient turning down chemo is acting irrationally? Or, would we respect their (reasoned) choice? I'm skeptical of how effective psychological treatments even are. There are plenty of people here with a history as long as your arm of failed treatments.

Plus- just considering reality too. What's causing their depression? I tend to think maybe the majority of depression is caused by a negative situation. What are the chances that person can meaningfully turn things around?

I tend to think in most cases- people don't just wake up with problems one day and immediately consider suicide. I would think in many cases- people have at least tried to solve their problems before becoming suicidal that perhaps they can't or, no longer have the strength to.

All of that looks more like rational and considered thought to me. Not someone acting impulsively off their emotions. It's not to say impulsive suicides don't happen but I imagine in most cases- there's a lot more going on under the surface.

 

[h4ppyhypoxia]

Is the decision to commit always irrational? Or is it our survival instincts, our biology that make us think this way? Can a person truly rationally, after weighing the pros and cons, reach the conclusion that they would rather die than live? Or is the desire to end one's life always a disturbed thought?
Because yes, most suicidal people are mentally ill, which theoretically changes their assessment of reality, but why assume their decision is unjustified? After all, they know best the psychological pain and other problems they endure daily.

see its really hard because to me my decision feels rational, but the same brain that has these thoughts is the same one that is judging them as rational, the problem is theres no objective measure that can weigh it up for us, but ive always been pretty offended when people put my decision down to solely mental illness, because it assumes that just because i am ill, i have no capacity, that isnt true, im able to get a tattoo, go to university, and make all other adult decisions

to me maybe deciding to commit could be irrational, but isnt deciding to survive too? even when someone is fully set on CTB, survival instinct can get in the way, survival instinct pushes so many to keep on going, that is not a rational thing, my true stance is that you can have rational reasons to keep going or not to, but the decision itself can never be purely rational, as ultimately, you are deciding the value of all future possible versions of you that have not got a chance to exist yet, therefore youre judging the value of a life that has not been lived, and the "evidence" to keep going does not really exist yet, only the present state, its up to you whether you want to trade those off for the peace of non existence or not

also, why do we glorify whether something is a rational decision or not as a society? when you choose to marry someone, you dont primarily think "im marrying this person because they have a lot of money, therefore they will be able to provide for me, and ill have a good life of a result of that" you primarily FEEL love for them, you might have rational reasons to do so, but the emotion of love is what motivates most people to marry, when you eat food you do it because you are hungry, when you drink water you do it because you are thirsty, so many of our decisions in life are not rooted in pure rationality, in fact, id argue it often comes secondary, so to me, it doesnt really matter if its a rational decision or not, i think it helps to have rational reasons, but i dont think its purely rooted in rationality alone

see its really hard because to me my decision feels rational, but the same brain that has these thoughts is the same one that is judging them as rational, the problem is theres no objective measure that can weigh it up for us, but ive always been pretty offended when people put my decision down to solely mental illness, because it assumes that just because i am ill, i have no capacity, that isnt true, im able to get a tattoo, go to university, and make all other adult decisions

to me maybe deciding to commit could be irrational, but isnt deciding to survive too? even when someone is fully set on CTB, survival instinct can get in the way, survival instinct pushes so many to keep on going, that is not a rational thing, my true stance is that you can have rational reasons to keep going or not to, but the decision itself can never be purely rational, as ultimately, you are deciding the value of all future possible versions of you that have not got a chance to exist yet, therefore youre judging the value of a life that has not been lived, and the "evidence" to keep going does not really exist yet, only the present state, its up to you whether you want to trade those off for the peace of non existence or not

also, why do we glorify whether something is a rational decision or not as a society? when you choose to marry someone, you dont primarily think "im marrying this person because they have a lot of money, therefore they will be able to provide for me, and ill have a good life of a result of that" you primarily FEEL love for them, you might have rational reasons to do so, but the emotion of love is what motivates most people to marry, when you eat food you do it because you are hungry, when you drink water you do it because you are thirsty, so many of our decisions in life are not rooted in pure rationality, in fact, id argue it often comes secondary, so to me, it doesnt really matter if its a rational decision or not, i think it helps to have rational reasons, but i dont think its purely rooted in rationality alone

of course you can have reasons to doubt and be skeptical of a future "better" version of you, such as failed treatments etc, im not sure how well i articulated this, but my point is that you can have rational reasons to not continue, but the decision itself is never a purely rational one, but that doesnt matter too much to me, very little decisions in life are fuelled by pure rationality, humans are very emotional creatures, and what is it that makes reason have more "valid" decisive power than emotion? similar problems arise in pro life arguments to keep going imo, they tell us we are not right to end our lives because we suffer intensely, and we should keep going as the future will be better (includes more pleasure) but what is it that gives pleasure decisive power and not suffering? both are emotional states, the rationality of pro life arguments can be just as flawed as ones that are pro choice, but societal views (emotion + majority) makes them feel more valid for the majority of people

 

[never mind me]

Although I understand the distinction between rational and irrational suicide I don't know, if it makes sense. Sure, one could say that for somebody with terminal illness who is already suffering a lot and will only get worse and then die it is rational to ctb whereas for someone who decides to ctb because of one bad thing happening to them like losing their job or their partner it is not.
But in the end it is all very subjective. Life isn't inherently good or bad imo. It all depends on the person and their perspective. Some people who are terminally ill or live with severe disability still have a strong will to live. So although an outsider may say it would be rational for them to ctb, they don't want to do that. And then there are others who looking from the outside have the perfect life, have a loving family, friends, are in good health, have a career, enough money to live comfortably and still they can't enjoy life and want to ctb.
It is not even that surprising this happens, but it has to do with the way humans function. We get used to the life circumstances we live in and these are our baseline for our feelings. Our feelings are supposed to tell us what we need, so for this to consistently work we have to adapt to a situation, no matter, if it is a bad or a good situation. So somebody who has an objectively good life gets used to that and even minor things not being that great cause this person to be unhappy. But somebody who struggles a lot in life and has lots of problems in life gets used to this state of affairs and even some improvement of their situation can make this person really happy. There are studies about people who won the lottery and after a few months their level of happiness was the same as before and as other people, because they got used to their new situation, i.e. being rich.
So the decision to ctb is always based on a subjective evaluation of someone's life. Imo it can't be rational or irrational.

 

[lastappleonearth]

Is the decision to commit always irrational? Or is it our survival instincts, our biology that make us think this way? Can a person truly rationally, after weighing the pros and cons, reach the conclusion that they would rather die than live? Or is the desire to end one's life always a disturbed thought?
Because yes, most suicidal people are mentally ill, which theoretically changes their assessment of reality, but why assume their decision is unjustified? After all, they know best the psychological pain and other problems they endure daily.

That's a difficult question and It may not be that simple, but for me it isn't irrational, if the pain a person is experiencing outweighs everything else. I know that my family would be sad, if I was gone and thats understandable, but the thing is, I don't really have a life and loosing it would mean nothing, because I don't really live anyways.
Well to me this all seems rational I guess, but in the end it's probably objectively irrational, but maybe not, who knows

 

[ElfQueens]

I think you might first have to define what you mean by "rational". It is an ill-defined term that means different things in different contexts (e.g. some use it as the opposite of "emotional", which we think is a bit fallacious; oftentimes when people say others should be "less emotional" is that others should act more in accordance to the feelings of the person claiming that, while in economics it simply means "in accordance with one's own interests") and also has had changing definitions over time historically (i.e. Aristotle and Jaques Derrida would have very different ideas on what it means to be "rational"). I find it interesting how people here immediately state their opinion without clarifying how they understand the word; personally we find it very difficult to see what others mean when they say "rational" without further clarification.

If, for instance, you meant that people can come to the conclusion, after weighing the advantages or disadvantages, that they should suicide (rather than it being an impulsive decision on a whim), I believe that yes, they can. Or maybe you meant "rational" as opposed to "empirical"? Well, according to Hume, you cannot derive what ought to be from what is, so I suppose you cannot decide to kill yourself purely from empirical data, without any moral/ethical preconceptions, but can you decide to do so from reason alone either? Maybe; I do not know. Or for instance Kant's categorical imperative is intended as a way to base your decisions on rational principles. One problem (of many) with it is that it is fundamentally ambiguous (like all systems of ethics, according to de Beauvoir). What is the maxim of your action? That people should be allowed to kill themselves? That people should kill themselves if they feel a certain way? That everyone should kill themself all the time? Can you wish for any of these to become a general law? (I suppose you can, none of these seems logical inconsistent) - Quelenna

 

[purebliss]

There is actually a scientific explanation behind the suicide drive

Your prefrontal cortex is highly developed and evolutionary designed to avoid predators, plan for the future and solve complex logical problems.
Predators in this instance being things that give you active emotional distress. Now our brain tries to find an "escape route" to escape from the "predator". But as there is no predator it "malfunctions" and sees as the only "solution" to end your consciousness. You are basically in a constant stress mode, stress being cortisol which hits permanently on your brain until it goes haywire.

A nice analogy is with our immune system. It is pretty effective in eradicating most illnesses which is the reason you are not constantly stick and dead by the age of 3. But, as is the case with me, if you have an autoimmune disease (in my case Hashimoto) it will attack you instead. My thyroid is being fucked permanently, and I have to replenish it via L-Thyroxin

Another aspect is that humans have evolved to be social creatures. We are capable of deep and complex emotional bonds and interactions.
In ancient times it was necessary to contribute, to be valuable to your tribe. And if you become depressed, sick or isolated from your tribe your brain will default to the thought that your tribe can't advance with you in it, and it would be better off without you.


So yes.
All in all it is because of extremely poor human design which is based on self-destruction as a mean to handle stress that does not stop.
Why the brain doesn't have a limiter which just disables cortisol production instead of straight-up trying to die is absolutely beyond me.
Humans in general are biologically weird. For example: Do you know why we have back pain? Because we walk on 2 legs. We were not meant to do that and our back did not properly evolve along our ability to walk on 2 legs

 

[Captive_Mind515]

Life can (and usually does) harm us, and there is no objective purpose to it.

So why would it be irrational for someone to hasten their exit from this game? And to do so in a manner where they get to choose how it happens, where, when etc. trying to control the variables involved.

I see all of that as VERY rational and reasoned behaviour.

But we live in a society that is largely a giant cult. So those of us who view our lives differently are deemed to be "mentally unstable" or "defective" in some way.

Fcuk this society… if you would prevent my peaceful exit from this life and rather I suffered instead, then you are my enemy - regardless of who you are or how much power you wield in this messed up world!

 

[rainatthebusstop]

Counterpoint: deciding to live is also irration. Both are more emotionally driven decisions that are already formed before you begin to justify them with logic in your mind

 

[Argent]

I don't think it's irrational. I didn't choose to exist, it just kind of happened. We don't really have free will if we don't have the right to opt out of this game we never consented to taking part in.

 

[DriftingToOblivion]

For some of us I believe it is not rational nor irrational but based on emotion.

Feeling that life has no purpose is very common so we wonder why we continue. On the other hand being fearful of death may be good enough reason to remain.

It's hard to consider all pros and cons without knowing what death will really be like. And without a way to come back, that remains an unknown for the living.

I have made a rational choice to remain because there are people who depend on me. Without them I am sure I would be gone.