Venting Is suicide moral or immoral?

[doneforlife]

Yeah I guess these don't quite fall under depression.

There are suicides due to narcissistic abuse, childhood trauma, bullying, victim of a crime like rape or something like being backed into a corner in life that one finds unacceptable like damage from psychiatric treatment or drugs. I do not think these are immoral in any way. These suicides are the saddest to me but denying the relief of suicide because it abstractly lets the bad guys "win" is immoral.

I tend to fall back on morally neutral aka amoral. I find the morality question falls more on the society.

It is immoral to restrain all agency of a person to be able to ctb in a safe and painless manner.
It is immoral to implicitly censor discussion about suicide on threat of involuntary commitment.
It is immoral to for religious people to shame families and friends of suiciders and set cultural and medical norms which enable the immoralities of the two points above.

Another wonderful analysis ! I think as society, we pretend to care rather than actually care. Also, how moral/ ethical is it that people making laws on euthanasia are privileged, able bodied people..

 

[M4rii]

its your life. you are allowed to do what you think is right. :)

 

[anon554]

Really depends. It's sort of inherently selfish to place the pain on others but you're also stopping yourself from suffering if that's your reasoning.

 

[Zaphkiel]

It depends on the circumstances.
There si no clear answers.

Like, if you brought childrens into this world and they are still young, you cant go and suicide. You have a duty to do your maximum so they can fend off by themselves.
But, maybe you have a much better well off relative that could take care of them legally (and is willing to) if you're out of the picture. Then it's more ok (not counting psychological effect on the children).

So. yeah. Circumstances.

 

[FlufflesAway]

Morality cannot be applied to an individual's suicide. Morality is produced in interactions with other people who have similar cultural backgrounds as you do. (Similar cultural backgrounds are not necessary, but the groups ideas of morality will change depending on their cultural 'education'--which can result in one group's idea of morality being seen as immoral by another group.)

Actions to the self by the self cannot have the attribute of moral or immoral. The way cultures try to get around this fact is by stating that you are not the owner of the self, but a transient occupier of the self. This is usually done through religions by the introduction of gods--your self belongs to god, god does not want you to commit suicide, therefore it is immoral to commit suicide. Without a relationship to an outside entity an action can neither be moral or immoral.

If you believe there are no gods. That you are the owner of your self, then suicide can neither be moral or immoral.

I'd like some counterarguments to this train of thought.

Thanks.

 

[BojackHorseman]

Suicide is taking ones own life. Universally we all have the ultimate ability to make whatever possible choice within any given moment. Its not necessarily irrational because human logic and behavior only have a casual relationship, what doesn't make sense to one person might make complete sense to another. If life is mathematically to be more miserable than it is pleasurable for the majority of its course, then to some, it may make complete sense to not continue living as living has been overshadowed by something that isnt worth enduring. Especially pain without any reward for the effort of its enduring, and ofc thats also subjective.

With that said, ive asked myself how must i gauge what is and isnt worth living? If i were to have a super power that allowed me to fast forward time and instantly skip experiences id choose not to experience, how much would i skip? Im sure many would say more than 50 percent. Then couldn't it be argued that if you wished to skip that amount of time, it would be time not worth living? that person committed to the laws the universe has permitted them. They carried out their will to die, a choice to no longer step forward. With that said, free will also allows murder and mayhem, these things can be argued to be morally deplorable.

Onwards with the next point to be made which is the crux of the entire debate. "Suicide causes pain for the people who wish that person be alive rather than dead". could it be argued that suicide is an act that is to the detriment of another's well being, for personal gain (relief)? And why is it always assumed that universally all suicides are to end a sad and overwhelming life? What about suicide bombings? Suicide attacks? Lets remove these from the question itself, and let's only take into account suicides that are purely to end a life that is perceived as not worth living, without any collateral damage in the form of physical violence. The obviously stated.

On both ends the living and deceased we see diminished well being. One has endured such a tragic existence and only sees it as to continue that way, and therefore suicide is an option worthy of picking. On the other side, as a result of the individual suffering and taking the decision of ending it into their own hands, others now have to experience pain. How do we assess this problem?

I dont think its morally wrong based on the effect it will have on others. To an extent.

The act itself I think one should consider how it will affect others, in the sense of who and how your body is found. Obviously your spouse would be devastated to continue living in a home you committed suicide in, so if you love your spouse and they are not the cause of your suicidal desire you might want to consider going some where else. I know we cant prevent all trauma following our suicide, but I think we should do our best to minimize the trauma it might cause finding our body.

But do I think its morally wrong because of people just being sad your gone? I dont think that is relevant at all. It is YOUR life that YOU have to live/endure, so if you do not think it worth it then anyone who truly loves and cares for you should respect that. Of course its ok to be sad you're gone, but to say you were immoral for doing so is incredibly unkind.

I do think if you have children and pets that rely on you and have no one else willing or able to care for them, then you do have an obligation to try your best to stick around for them. But for those who still cant handle living, I still wouldnt judge them as "immoral". Rape, muder, pedophilia, that is immoral. Someone who commits suicide when they have small children is not an immoral person, just a person who was struggling and untimately lost the battle. They were not immoral, just hurting.

 

[badtothebone]

Suicide is self-care!

How it's a self care? If you don't mind me asking?

 

[doneforlife]

Morality cannot be applied to an individual's suicide. Morality is produced in interactions with other people who have similar cultural backgrounds as you do. (Similar cultural backgrounds are not necessary, but the groups ideas of morality will change depending on their cultural 'education'--which can result in one group's idea of morality being seen as immoral by another group.)

Actions to the self by the self cannot have the attribute of moral or immoral. The way cultures try to get around this fact is by stating that you are not the owner of the self, but a transient occupier of the self. This is usually done through religions by the introduction of gods--your self belongs to god, god does not want you to commit suicide, therefore it is immoral to commit suicide. Without a relationship to an outside entity an action can neither be moral or immoral.

If you believe there are no gods. That you are the owner of your self, then suicide can neither be moral or immoral.

I'd like some counterarguments to this train of thought.

Thanks.

Good point. Even I am struggling with the morality aspect.
"Without a relationship to an outside entity an action can neither be moral or immoral."

But with suicide, the relationships you have with outside entities (your earthly relationships) , is going to be impacted, right ? You will be the source of their pain . How do you counter this? Morality aside , one should never be the source of pain for anyone .

 

[Praestat_Mori]

How it's a self care? If you don't mind me asking?

Suicide is self-care when you protect yourself from further (often unbearable) suffering or a decline in life quality.

What "unbearable suffering in life" is, is pretty much subjective and different from person to person. But honestly, I don't enjoy suffering rather I prefer to avoid it.

For example, I would never want to be kept alive in old age if I'm not healthy anymore - I mean ending up as an extreme nursing case. What a life is that?

Whether someone can beat SI to CTB or not is a totally different question.

 

[Randy Savage]

Most definitely moral. Regardless of your reason, it is a human right. I think you should have a damn good reason to do it, but there honestly aren't many people who just "irrationally" want to CTB

If you have kids who you voluntarily agreed to feed and shelter then you should probably do that before you pass but barring that, I can't see many reasons why a regular suicide would be ruled as immoral

 

[Praestat_Mori]

What is moral or immoral is a mirror of society and how the collective thinks. A thousand or two thousand years ago moral and immoral was totally different to nowadays.

Is it really moral to keep suffering humans alive at all costs and let them suffer but we euthanize pets (and animals in general) to prevent them from unnecessary suffering?

That is today's moral and I would say that this moral is very questionable.

Edit: That whole thing can't be discussed in a few sentences it's too complex and each post can only share a tiny bit of the whole thing.

 

[badtothebone]

Suicide is self-care when you protect yourself from further (often unbearable) suffering or a decline in life quality.

What "unbearable suffering in life" is, is pretty much subjective and different from person to person. But honestly, I don't enjoy suffering rather I prefer to avoid it.

For example, I would never want to be kept alive in old age if I'm not healthy anymore - I mean ending up as an extreme nursing case. What a life is that?

Whether someone can beat SI to CTB or not is a totally different question.

Or to stay alive with this pain after losing a child and I rather not to live. Thank you for clarifying!

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Or to stay alive with this pain after losing a child and I rather not to live. Thank you for clarifying!

I'm sorry for your loss.

Any personal reason that makes us suicidal is a valid reason.

 

[badtothebone]

I'm sorry for your loss.

Any personal reason that makes us suicidal is a valid reason.

I agree and thank you so much appreciate you

 

[uglyugly]

Morals are generally defined for us by society, parents, teachers, and religion. So, right there I'd be using someone else's idea of what was moral or not, and I am not willing to do that for deeply personal choices, which suicide most certainly is. I think it's up to each person to decided what they want or not for themselves when it comes to suicide.

That being said, I think it's highly immoral of society to do everything it can to prevent a person from ending their own life. No one has the right to tell a person in intolerable pain or suffering to keep suffering. That's cruel.

 

[let.me.let.go87]

I don't think it's either or. It's a personal choice. To say it's moral would be to say it's good but to say it's immoral would be to say we don't deserve our way out. I think it just is what it is. It's a way out. A release. It's neither right nor wrong. It just is
I don't think it's either/or. To say it's moral would be to say it's a good thing. But saying it's immoral is calling it evil which it is neither. It is simply a way to escape. A way out. Suicide is simple a choice. A personal one at that. It is what it is. It is neither right nor wrong.

 

[Ww42]

Morality implies right or wrong. I dont think suicide is right nor wrong. It's just something people do, and it may feel right to them, im sure it feels right to all of us here, wrong to the neurotypicals who dont have constant suicidality so they cant see our viewpoint

 

[colorlesstsukuru]

I think most things in life are amoral as it's what one uses a thing for makes it immoral or moral. If one kills oneself to avoid accountability for embezzling millions from a company, then suicide becomes somewhat immoral. If someone commits suicide to avoid burdening their family, then suicide can be a moral act.

 

[Plentiful_Despair]

My cold dead body won't care about the morality of being killed by me.

 

[Darkover]

If ending one's own insufferable life is immoral, then procreating life that has a high probability of being insufferable is even more immoral. Morailty involves a choice and we did not choose to be here.

if we consider the act of ending one's own life immoral because it involves a rejection of life, then what does that imply about the morality of bringing new life into a world where suffering is possible, or even likely?

• If suicide is considered immoral because it involves ending a life that is suffering, the implication is that life, despite suffering, should be preserved.
• However, procreation involves creating new life, which might inevitably lead to suffering. If the potential for suffering makes suicide immoral, then knowingly creating life that may suffer could be seen as an even greater moral issue.
• This raises questions about the morality of making decisions that impose life—and potentially significant suffering—on someone without their consent.

 

[Holu]

I'm an atheist, so I don't really consider elements of theistic sin. I also feel suicide is just too nuanced for all cases to be moral or immoral, though I'll lean more towards moral since I believe we own the right to death. That's said, I'm in my views on life and death I'm a classical utilitarian, and so while I'll always support the right to suicide, there are situations where in committing suicide, the amount of suffering and potential harm you cause to others far outweighs the suffering you were experiencing. The obvious example is if you commit suicide and have young children who are 100% dependent on you. Would I say this is morally wrong? Probably not, but what I can say is that your actions are responsible for significant amounts of suffering. Does this mean you should keep surviving so as to not spread suffering further. That is the answer I myself do not know. In fact, my only sort of logical cope around this is the idea of emotional thresholds, where eventually the suffering we experience is far to great that we take that final step into suicide. At least in that way, any responsibility to self sacrifice yourself and survive is diminished, as you have depleted what remains of your will.

 

[Coffeandamug]

In my humble opinion, it is moral. One's life shoudn't belong to their community or to a higher power as moral mandate or a government. Inside the material limits, it should be one's decision what happens to their life. including when they die.