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J

JensenX

Member
Jun 6, 2022
53
There are cases of irrational suicides.
That's an understatement. I would say more than 50% of suicides are irrational. Now, with cyberbullying so prevalent among the younger generations it's reaching epic proportions. I live in Thailand, and there are stories every day about young ladies killing themselves over love dramas. Lots of older guys take up skydiving without parachutes off high buildings too, but that's usually older people who have reached the end of their rope.
Imo that's the quantum vacuum! Nothing exists there yet it's full of energy creating particles and antiparticles out of nothing.

It really didn't take any convincing. Someone told me there was an afterlife, but they didn't convince me. So rather than being convinced of anything in particular, I am unconvinced of the specific claims that have been made regarding an afterlife. Something about the burden of proof, etc etc.

Ultimately, I have no way to be absolutely certain about it and I would never try to convince anyone about this matter one way or the other. But it was not some process that I chose to convince myself "there is no afterlife." I guess you could call it agnosticism... I think it is a field of 'knowledge' that isn't accessible and could well likely be mirage created in our minds by language.

You're right though.. its a very long conversation, and there is so much to it. I'm also open to the fact that I may be completely wrong. If God decides to visit me in my room tonight and we have a nice chat, maybe I'd change my mind! The invitation is open... To be honest I could use the company! lol
Interesting you said, "God decides to visit me in my room tonight and we have a nice chat".

It might just have happened to me today as I came across, by chance, a new book: "Return of the God Hypothesis" by Stephen Meyer (2021)

Here's a short interview that I found very interesting. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, but if you're looking for proof of an afterlife, you won't find it, nor will you find proof your life ends with nothing. Observation of the universe and life might convince you of Intelligent design if you look deep enough, but maybe you are comfortable with your belief.

The video will not post (says unavailable), so if you're interested, go to YouTube and search:

Can This Man PROVE That God Exists? Piers Morgan vs Stephen Meyer

 
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redeeming_butterfly

redeeming_butterfly

Life is no more beautiful than its cruelest suffer
May 15, 2024
90
Can someone explain the definition of rationality to me?
 
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Orange Cat

Student
Oct 19, 2023
142
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sensitiveguy

sensitiveguy

Banned troll.
Jun 26, 2024
76
Ofc
It's a sliding scale. Think about people who jump out of a burning building because falling is less painful than burning to death. That's very rational. Then think about someone who has always been happy but ctbs the day after his girlfriend dumped him. That's irrational.

Since we can easily identify an example of each on two ends of the spectrum, it's easy to visualize a scale of how rational ctb is from case to case.
Idk why but irrational always seems beautiful.
 
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Not A Fan

Not A Fan

don't avoid the void
Jun 22, 2024
189
Observation of the universe and life might convince you of Intelligent design if you look deep enough, but maybe you are comfortable with your belief.
Is it possible that there could be intelligent design and NO afterlife? How can we be so sure that one follows from the other? I don't see a necessary relationship. I can imagine a designed universe where part of the design is that death is final. There's no reason why that couldn't be the case.
 
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davidtorez

davidtorez

Wizard
Mar 8, 2024
649
They say that lie to control everyone.

It's totally illogical .

Of course if someone is going to be homeless or be in torture suicide is rational in those and in many other cases..

I think wanting to work so hard just to exist under threat of extreme pain and many horrible things that can happen is irrational. Wanting to get old is irrational and if one doesn't suicide they will get very old

Furthermore life is decaying aging being a slave to your body , mind , brain and to society / culture and their ingrained false beliefs. Just one false belief is the topic of this thread "suicide is always irrational" and they have most humans believing that lie and many others
.

It's totally rational to desire non-existence. Only only only in non-existence forever is a human completely out from under the threat of extreme suffering.
I couldn't agree more !
 
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Darkover

Darkover

Archangel
Jul 29, 2021
5,290
Is it possible that there could be intelligent design and NO afterlife? How can we be so sure that one follows from the other? I don't see a necessary relationship. I can imagine a designed universe where part of the design is that death is final. There's no reason why that couldn't be the case.

have you even done any research on evolution in computer science

Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God, presented by its proponents as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins
 
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JensenX

Member
Jun 6, 2022
53

have you even done any research on evolution in computer science

Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God, presented by its proponents as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins
What does computer science have to do with the evolution of life?

It's good that you have faith in the Evolutionary theories as you will have no confusion about what happens after you die.
 
Darkover

Darkover

Archangel
Jul 29, 2021
5,290
What does computer science have to do with the evolution of life?
the very fact your even bothering to ask that proves you know nothing about evolution
 
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JensenX

Member
Jun 6, 2022
53
the very fact your even bothering to ask that proves you know nothing about evolution
I was trying to be polite after what you just posted but you decided to be insulting.

Instead of making excuses for a stupid comment, why don't you try to explain it?
 
Unknown21

Unknown21

The past never dies. Forever 22.
Apr 25, 2023
1,055
Not always, it depends on a lot of factors. If a person's quality of life is low without any improvement, just suffering, then suicide would be rational in this case.
 
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divinemistress36

divinemistress36

Angelic
Jan 1, 2024
4,341
Its not irrational if ones suffering cant be allivated here
 
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Daryl72

Student
Mar 12, 2024
161
Depends on the situation. If it's to avoid torture or something then yes.

For depression, it's usually irrational as most do recover.

For those of us with untreatable depression, it's rational as there is no hope of recovery.

It's extremely difficult to say when suicide is rational and justified.
Very good way to state your point.
 
MatrixPrisoner

MatrixPrisoner

Enlightened
Jul 8, 2023
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Not A Fan

Not A Fan

don't avoid the void
Jun 22, 2024
189

have you even done any research on evolution in computer science

Intelligent design (ID) is a pseudoscientific argument for the existence of God, presented by its proponents as "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins
I was just speaking more as a hypothetical in response to JensenX. I don't believe in intelligent design, myself. Thanks for the article, some of it went over my head, but it was an interesting read.
 
divinemistress36

divinemistress36

Angelic
Jan 1, 2024
4,341
Depends on the situation. If it's to avoid torture or something then yes.

For depression, it's usually irrational as most do recover.

For those of us with untreatable depression, it's rational as there is no hope of recovery.

It's extremely difficult to say when suicide is rational and justified.
Its so fustrating when you have tried everything to get better
 
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fallingtopieces

fallingtopieces

Warlock
May 6, 2024
710
The is one key element that I don't see discussed here. I don't read all threads, so excuse me if it has been discussed. I've brought up the topic a few times, but there was no response from anyone.

The question is, what happens after you die? It would seem important to discuss this. Most religions believe we are going to enter another realm of existence. This could mean exiting this realm might not necessarily be a relief.

If you believe you will merely cease to exist after death, then you also won't experience any relief as you will no longer exist. You won't enjoy the relief you seek. I have problems with non-existence. I find it perturbing. The universe only exists through my perception of it.

It's easy enough for me to end my life, but what comes next?
Your question requires an audience that believes what you do. Otherwise it's a debate of some sort. 'Most religions' were all created by humans, thousands of years ago--> "The universe only exists through my perception of it."

I don't know if anyone is looking to 'enjoy the relief'. What you're describing to me at least seems to be a general fear of the inevitable, of death. If it's perturbing enough, then you have found reason enough not to look to ctb.
 
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_Minsk

_Minsk

death: the cure for life
Dec 9, 2019
1,130
its the most rational thing to me
 
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sash

sash

f/uk seeking partner to vanish with
Oct 1, 2023
203
It could be classed as irrational if it is an impulse suicide, out of the blue or during an irrational 'episode'.
But most of us here will be doing it rationally. Well thought out. The only option after trying to survive and realising rationally that living is not an option anymore.
We have brains, logical, rational, reasoning. We can think for ourselves.
So how can it be irrational when we have tried everything & its the only answer left?
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
11,264
What's so rational about living though? Just because it's the default state we find ourselves in, doesn't mean we start out on a rational premise. Life was imposed on us because our parents made that decision. So- we're starting out with something we neither chose ourselves or, consented to.

Let's say we were all conscripted into the army. They treat us well, feed us, some people enjoy it. Others don't though. Are they irrational to want to leave? Why? It's simply an experience they didn't enjoy.

That's the main thing I suppose- I suspect it's mainly emotions that push us towards suicide. I'm so unhappy/ lonely/ dissatisfied/ bored. Can someone really be incorrect in their emotional response to something? Sure, they could be suffering from depression or anhedonia which severly affects their mood.

But still, can personal preferences really even be irrational? Is it irrational to not enjoy mocha icecream, ice skating, cold weather, hot weather, the shape of your nose? Etc etc. No- it's simply personal preference. Some people simply don't enjoy life! Or- they are debilitated enough to hamper them from obtaining a life they might find enjoyable- could be a multitude of reasons- health, financial, mental illness, body dysmorphia. But surely- that in itself is a rational process. As in- bloody hell- life sucks. Can I improve it? Yes- live. No- ideation starts to creep in.

Either we find life so burdensome that we kill ourselves or, we carry on. If we carry on, things may get better. They could equally stay the same or, get worse. So- what is the rational choice there? There's no way of knowing. We're talking about the future. All we can really go on is probability. If I make a real effort, how likely is it I will turn things around to create a life I find worth living? How fixable are my problems? How willing am I to compromise? How much effort can I be bothered to put in now? We can rationalise our choice based on the knowledge of ourselves but, why would it be irrational to think- I can't achieve what I want and, I won't settle for less?

Of course, what happens after death is also a mystery. So- we can't make a rational choice there either! Maybe there's simply nothing. In which case, the action of suicide will be our last. No repurcussions so- ideal really. We've just deleted all our problems. That seems incredibly rational to me.

Of course, if there are some sort of religious, afterlife repurcussions for suicide then- we're screwed. I suppose there is the argument of 'sticking with the devil you know'- ie. life. I suppose there is a rationale to that.

But ultimately, how can someone even make a rational decision when they don't know all the facts? They don't know their future, they don't know what happens after death. How can they even rationalise about an unknown future? It's all down to risk.

Maybe killing themselves will be a mistake. Maybe they'll regret it just before they die. Maybe they'll regret it in some horrible afterlife. Maybe there'll be nothing left of them to feel anything. Maybe they'll decide to live though- and end up regretting that decision just as much! I suppose we could- in theory leave it too late. Can't be easy to suicide if you become too old, ill and utterly dependent on/ supervised by others.

Personally, I'm working my arse off to live a life I don't want to live. WTF is so rational about that? It's almost funny in a darkly comical way.
 
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J

J&L383

Paragon
Jul 18, 2023
983
There is one key element that I don't see discussed here. I don't read all threads, so excuse me if it has been discussed. I've brought up the topic a few times, but there was no response from anyone.

The question is, what happens after you die? It would seem important to discuss this. Most religions believe we are going to enter another realm of existence. This could mean exiting this realm might not necessarily be a relief.

If you believe you will merely cease to exist after death, then you also won't experience any relief as you will no longer exist. You won't enjoy the relief you seek. I have problems with non-existence. I find it perturbing. The universe only exists through my perception of it.

It's easy enough for me to end my life, but what comes next?
Some good thoughts, but then the next question is, is the belief of the existence of an afterlife rational? If you believe in science, which is of course an "if" (but many of us do), it doesn't appear to be rational, based on the evidence (near death experiences, and recovered past lives under hypnotism notwithstanding). Even though religions believe in some sort of afterlife, in thousands of years there is still no consensus of what it entails. Stephen Hawking lived a full but challenged life because he was firmly convinced there is no afterlife and so he made the best of what he had here. The question will be answered for each of us, ultimately. Maybe we all get what we believe?
 
J

JensenX

Member
Jun 6, 2022
53
Your question requires an audience that believes what you do. Otherwise it's a debate of some sort. 'Most religions' were all created by humans, thousands of years ago--> "The universe only exists through my perception of it."

I don't know if anyone is looking to 'enjoy the relief'. What you're describing to me at least seems to be a general fear of the inevitable, of death. If it's perturbing enough, then you have found reason enough not to look to ctb.
I've been on this forum for 2 years (and studying the topic elsewhere long before that). I don't feel there's a rush to take action considering the finality of it (assuming no afterlife). It's something that requires much thought. I'm not the only person who has been lurking for years. Some people (usually older people like myself) consider having a good plan in place as insurance against a bad death. There's always a chance of a good death before I need to take action.
Some good thoughts, but then the next question is, is the belief of the existence of an afterlife rational? If you believe in science, which is of course an "if" (but many of us do), it doesn't appear to be rational, based on the evidence (near death experiences, and recovered past lives under hypnotism notwithstanding). Even though religions believe in some sort of afterlife, in thousands of years there is still no consensus of what it entails. Stephen Hawking lived a full but challenged life because he was firmly convinced there is no afterlife and so he made the best of what he had here. The question will be answered for each of us, ultimately. Maybe we all get what we believe?
Rather than argue about what is the truth, a topic of heated debate, I merely put forward the idea that it is a question that should be considered and may be discussed i.e. what comes next.

I've learnt something after introducing the topic; most here (perhaps all) think death is the end. Does this mean that in general most people considering suicide are atheists or agnostics? I'm starting to get that impression, although this is a very small sample of potential ctb candidates.

That belief would certainly make the job easier, as it would mean we have no more value than meat (animals) or any other minor life form.
But most of us here will be doing it rationally. Well thought out.
What drew you to that conclusion? I think you are wrong. I'm sure a larger number of potential CTB candidates merely lurk here and we do not get to hear from them.

Just going on US statistics for 2022, nearly 50,000 people died by suicide. 3.85 times more men than women. There's a lot of irrational suicide occurring around the world. Rational suicides would be in the minority. Most suicide is spur of-the-moment desperation.
 
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