Is SS ethical?

[LastFlowers]

What are the ethical implications of the existence of SS?

As a hypothetical, what if someone CTB after reading resources on SS, when otherwise they wouldn't have. When otherwise they would have eventually moved on from their depression, etc. and lived a long happy life? But instead they leave misery in their wake.

I understand pro-choice arguments. I agree people should be free to make their own decisions about their own life and body.

But what about the mentally ill? What about those who aren't in a state of mind where they are rational? People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety. I wouldn't call myself rational during those periods. At all. There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies.

SS might be an appropriate site for people who have made a weighted, rational decision to end their lives. For a multitude of reasons.

But what about the mentally ill? What if a young and impressionable teen finds this site? What about people who aren't rational? How do we protect them?

This site could be facilitating unwarranted tragedy.

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

The ethical implications are no different from any other platform spouting any other sort of viewpoints or details about all and any aspect of life and/or death. From any end of the spectrum.
That goes for IRL discussions as well.
It's the freedom of information, which nobody should be barred from partaking in.
Unless you are perfectly fine with unwarranted discrimination.

Death itself isn't even a significant 'harm', nor irrational to expedite in many situations.
The only person who can really judge that is the person forced to live their own life, in their own body, under their own circumstances.
None of which you nor anyone else have to endure.
Death is inevitable regardless, progressive and unrelenting suffering doesn't have to be.

I'm sure plenty of people have gleaned their information/resources from this site, as well as many others.
So what?
It's either that or continue on in misery and/or being forced to resort to a less researched or less ideal method that may be more likely to leave an individual brain damaged or in a far worse position than they were in originally.
There is no life without quality of life.
(Or is that the goal..to label someone as irrational and thus incapable of making their own decisions for themselves, only then for that narrative to force that person into yet another situation where their autonomy is only further stripped from them? Talk about unethical..)
Or they could still succeed in dying but the process could be especially and unnecessarily scary and painful, more so than it would be without the knowledge of a better way.

Shall we keep the most vulnerable (to life) and despairing ignorant to the avenues that will end their suffering?
Is that really something you would want to see established, more so than it already is?
What good does that do? (Besides once again, forcing the suicidal into isolation and clandestine conversation.)
And for whom?
The people left with the "wake of misery"? …are we supposed to give a damn about that, when our own misery is apparently perfectly alright with them.
Why are those left behind also left without the expectation of "moving on" that is placed on the shoulders of the suicidal?

And who are you to say any suicidal person would have otherwise "moved on from their depression and lived a long, happy life"…?
That's quite an assumption. (One which can easily be proven false in plenty of cases.)
And a gamble- on how someone outside of yourself will fare in this world.
Are you an omniscient God who spends their days observing each and every one of these individuals, calculating their odds of departure from their suffering versus the opposite?
Is anyone that?
I think not.

Do you understand pro-choice arguments?
Do you agree that people should have the freedom to make decisions about their own life and body?
(Most of which are unfortunately already made for them, by "fate" or other people.)

Or are the miserable and "mentally ill" suddenly not considered "people" to you?
Because in this society, I'm telling you..where labels are concerned, there is no difference between those two groups.
In fact, most people are considered "mentally ill" postmortem, by default, for the sole reason of having commited suicide..all their life's circumstantial reasonings and social mistreatment being erased for the more palatable story by the status quo.

Why are their arguments for an end to their suffering not cogent to you?
Why?
Just because someone(s) "said so" ?
I don't think you could even manage an answer that would ever stand up against even one other entire existence, which you will never be able to fathom the full context of.
Never mind a whole LOT of lives you will never have to live, and "pro-lifers" will never have to live.

Why is speaking on the negative aspects of life and wanting to escape them-in the only way some can-unreasonable to you? Illogical?
When often times continuing on living is the most insane choice a person in perpetual misery can make…(unless I missed the memo that we are all Catholic tiktokers who fetishize suffering..)
Positivity bias and life-affirming biases are not immune to being unreasonable, illogical, irrational, unenlightened, what have you..and they are especially myopic, yet unlike many suicidal individuals, the pro-life agenda wishes for their near-sightedness to extend its authority outside of its own perimeters, outside of its follower's own lives.
Is that ethical? Is it even moral?

"People who are seriously depressed or 'mentally ill' don't view the world rationally"..

^Where did you get that idea?
Facebook?
Biased research articles that spit in the face of genuine/neutral scientific standards?
"Professionals" who base their entire careers and "education" on a bunk paradigm that appropriates medical terminology & pathologizes the human condition- ironically many of whom would be considered severely "mentally ill" by their own supposed manuals..?
Politicians and the 1% who need to keep their humans in stock to hold up their business practices and their superfluous livelihoods?
People in general, with lives & privileges & inhibitions that just so happened to lead them away from the decision to kill themselves?
Biased, flawed human beings judging other biased, flawed human beings?
Your own self and your own situation…which likely has no bearing on any other?
(Where this is concerned..)

I am also not sure what you mean by "seriously depressed"…considering it makes perfect sense that the worse your life is, the more you would want to die and the more 'depressed'
about it you would be..
Some of your statements just come across as contradictory..

"There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies".

Oh do tell, what you believe that reason to be..
because I can assure you it has little to nothing to do with the best interest of the person committed.
As there are also more reasons why that practice is so heavily criticized by those who had to go through it, or even by empathetic friends and family members who realized the horror and ineffectual nature of such imprisonment.

If you think SS may be an appropriate site for those who somehow have the ability to make a "weighted, rational decision"..then you open the door for that to be true of anyone.
You don't get to gatekeep who that might be, though you could certainly waste your time trying to interfere…until your interference renders that person truly incapable of making their own decisions, and not because they were ever wrong or unreasonable in what they were about to decide..but because they're now a bona fide vegetable, or someone captured behind glass for committing the crime of attempting a decision for themselves while having outside parties be privy to it.

I'm not saying I don't raise an eyebrow at some other peoples' reasons for wanting to die, nor am I saying that impulsive thoughts immediately after a damaging event should always be followed through on..especially not without consideration for other possible options beforehand.
But how are you or anyone going to ensure you select the right people, at the right time..to "protect"?
How are you going to determine what "rational" is when it comes to suicide?
Or who is?
Is it even really about "protecting" them, or is it a form of condescension indicative of a hero complex or other blind and hypocritical ideologies?
(Most who have the capacity to find and navigate a site like this, are already in a position that indicates more room for thoughtfulness than most.
The more impulsive cases never even make it here.)


Let me tell you something.
The world facilitates unwarranted tragedy every day.
People who remain living do that.
Humans continuing the human race and all its impenetrable flaws & foibles do that.
Life itself does that.
Every second of every day..to someone, somewhere.
And yet the focus is on this tiny corner of the internet, the only respite for many who have been burned severely by the above perpetrators..?

If you consider death to be the ultimate tragedy, then there's an issue with your argument right there.
Because there is only ever one thing that leads to death..and that is life.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

Is it ethical to bring another life form into this cruel, unforgiving shithole planet. Knowing that before hand, not giving the lifeform any choice in the decision at all?

 

[outatime_85]

Interesting topic.

That said, I am not smart enough to participate in it.

However, @lastflowers I did read your whole post, and while I might not be smart enough to understand the gist of it, I just wanted to let you know that someone did read it.

 

[LastFlowers]

Interesting topic.

That said, I am not smart enough to participate in it.

However, @lastflowers I did read your whole post, and while I might not be smart enough to understand the gist of it, I just wanted to let you know that someone did read it.

I appreciate the sentiment and the time you took to read all that, although I'm not sure my own comment is necessarily indicative of intelligence more so than my having "no life" which perhaps enables my tendency to be egregiously long-winded.
(It probably requires more 'smarts' to avoid the possibility of coming across as confounding.
So I failed there.)

 

[RainAndSadness]

If you don't want SS to exist, there are simple steps to make it unnecessary.

1. lift the social stigma on suicide.
2. stop with the coercive practices of suicide prevention.
3. legalise of assisted suicide that's inclusive to all people that have reached the age of majority. You may not like it but the right to die is a human right and we don't negotiate human rights.

I would appreciate if society wouldn't make it our business to provide a place in which people feel welcome and comfortable enough to discuss deeply personal issues but right now, there is obviously a need for this platform because nobody else gives a fuck about the issues that are discussed in this forum. It's as simple as that.

 

[LifeCanBeCruel]

Places like this wouldn't need to exist if our societies were more open to the idea of a rational suicide. It is unethical that access to a safe and peaceful death is categorically prohibited for everyone no matter how much they want out. Denying people the knowledge to find a peaceful end for themselves through systematic censorship is unfair and cruel when there are no other alternatives.

 

[outatime_85]

Lol I appreciate the sentiment and the time you took to read all that, although I'm not sure my own comment is necessarily indicative of intelligence more so than my having "no life" which perhaps enables my tendency to be egregiously long-winded.
(It probably requires more 'smarts' to avoid the possibility of coming across as confounding.
So I failed there.)

I think you expressed your thoughts on the topic pretty well.

You had a thought about the subject and spoke your mind.

As I said, I may not understand the topic, but that is a deficiency on my part, and even though I do not understand the entirety of the subjects being discussed, I am still reading most threads in the hopes that, as someone who is not smart, I can still learn from some of the discussions held here, this being one such discussion.

Anyway, I will step out of this thread.

My apologies to the OP if my posts caused any derailment.

 

[DetachedDreamer97]

Hard to say whether this site is or isn't ethical. But what I can say is this:

Whenever we could, depending on their situation, we should try to guide them into finding a reason to live or to fix their own problems. They probably won't be convinced through mere words of encouragement, but... I guess it can potentially work by setting an example of someone who overcame or is in a process of overcoming their struggles.

We are all indeed different, but a way, our struggles at its core is about the same.

If all else fails, then I guess suicide would perhaps be a rational decision. Disagree all you like, but to me, suicide is best not done in times of crisis, but when you're just calm. You die impulsively, or in a state of desperation, you might not find peace. I always try to prevent that for that reason.

 

[GasMonkey]

Free exchange of information, and everyone doing whatever the fuck they wanna do.

It is what it is.

 

[LastFlowers]

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

"Unfortunately to enable pro-life activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-life/pro-suffering people in the world unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to live."

"Pro-suffering people on this earth don't like to admit that life can get worse for many. It's a sickness."


Also, do you realize that everyone who commits to life, must also commit to death?
Apparently we are all "pro-death", especially those who chose to multiply.
Being pro-expedition of death is not the same as being pro-death.
Many here wish they were never born in the first place, because death and the dying process is just one more act of suffering they have to endure, but expediting it simply becomes the lesser of evils.


This site is not welcoming to minors, nor all.
When I signed up I had to get knee deep into my own shit in order to convince those in charge that I was suitable to be a member.
Idk if things have changed.
And if people want to ogle, that's their business.
It's the same for any other internet window.
It's not our responsibility to interrogate everyone and exhaust ourselves interfering with another person's business.
If you're worried about kids and their lack of full fledged mental faculties, then get on the parent's and guardian's asses.

This site is not malevolent nor is its purpose, so stop projecting your poison all over its reputation and those who find solace here.
You paint with a broad brush over this site's members, just as you do with the entire population of America.

You're going to have to clarify your second to last sentence.
As for the angry faces..is that what you wanted?



Edit:
As an aside, I would like to add that anyone who thinks fear of more violent and commonly known methods deterring someone from suicide is some type of success story must be disingenuous at best, and more than likely off their rocker..or just plain sadistic.
Fear as a motivator against leaving/ending an awful situation will never win out over the fear of staying in said situation.
Not forever.
It will most likely only leave the subject with less capacity to function or too much exhaustion to have any semblance of peace for when they do finally end things.
Prolonging the inevitable can actually lead people to snap, thus inciting a latent sort of "impulsivity" where they have waited too long to be able to have any emotional or mental room left for preparations or written goodbyes, etc.
So while the decision to kill themselves was long considered and far from impulsive, the act itself is still finalized that way.
I am not sure why anyone would want to corner someone into that..ultimately fulfilling what they proposed to stop.

In the same vein..
Are battered spouses who fear their partner's rage, so opt to stay rather than leave, better off?
Are the victims of bullying and social evils who are deterred from speaking out, for fear of the backlash, better off?
Are those who have endured racial hate, slavery, encampment, imprisonment and other prejudicial bars-both literal & figurative-who fear(ed) the consequences of attempted escape/voicing their woes better off?

What's the point of deterring someone from suicide by only offering them the worst options, unless your goal is just to play some procrastinating puppeteer with other people's lives?

Like I said before, and others have said before me..most who find this place have already reached a point where their mind is made up, or prove to be the type that needs to parse through the information before they bite the bullet.
And look how long some members stay…
Look how many are no longer actively suicidal and attribute that fact to the site itself..
Not that this part of the equation should even have to come into play, but you also cannot deny it.

 

[LastFlowers]

You obviously came into this thread looking for a fight. Well I'm not going to argue with you. But you need to realise that you're being combative and emotionally investing yourself in this argument. It's not worth it. I still think you're being unreasonable, especially bringing my past on this forum to try and make your point. Toxic. I stand by most of what I said

Looking for a fight?
Combative?
..Did you read your own comment?
This is what you anticipated.

Why wouldn't they be emotionally invested in this argument?
The hell..
I would think almost everyone here would be.
It is worth it.
Why is your commentary worth typing out, yet theirs isn't?
That makes no sense.

I'm not going to say bringing up unrelated off-thread arguments is proper, although once in awhile it has has been done with fair intentions..but I think you're still being rather hypocritical and I didn't read anything unreasonable about their points to you.

The information available here is not unique to this site…

Exactly, I actually got the bulk of my initial information on methods elsewhere, took me a long time to find this place (long before the NYT article).

I went to my doctor and talked about suicide today and asked her if I should make a will, you'd think that she «ethically» would prevent any of these things or interfere and she didn't, she said that's up to me. The idea of what is ethical and moral, I don't even think about it anymore, everyone «ethical» and «moral» I know is jsut messed up now.

Damn, I wish I had a doctor like yours nearby.



Another Edit/side note:

I would like to make at least one concession in response to OP's concerns.

The finality of death.
The fact that, given all the evidence at hand, despite religious wishful thinking and similar, death is, in fact, the end.
That's it. You don't get a second chance.
There is no paradise or legitimate sensation of peace waiting for you after the act.
Everyone should think about this, not just the suicidal.
But people who want or need to press the fast forward button, while having the right to do so, should not romanticize what that means.
Must realize that they-their consciousness-will not be around to witness the aftermath, retain influence, or obtain any control they didn't have while alive.
As terrible as that sounds, that is the way things are.
There is nothing after..you're done.

Unfortunately giving this disclaimer to people can sometimes be taken poorly or even prohibited/censored as to ensure respect towards certain "beliefs".
(Outside of this site too, obviously.)
I have held my tongue a few times when people have had goodbye threads or otherwise expressed the "knowledge" that a strange, warm and wonderful afterlife was waiting for them..one which they hurried toward.
I wondered..and being a bit sick about it..if they would have ended their lives as soon as they did, had they seriously considered that death offered nothing beyond itself.

 

[Scythe]

Well, just because your life will be better doesn't mean it's worth the wait. For example, I know a lot of people are just suffering at work until they retire. By then they are old and don't have a lot of time anymore. Then some of them would be happy enjoying their retirement life, and some will look back and say "Hey, my life is better now that I retired, but I wish I could've done things differently." Another thing is being mentally ill doesn't mean you are irrational. There will be times where you are irrational, but that doesn't mean you are irrational 24/7. And I don't believe this site helps impulse suicide people end their lives. First of all, it takes some searching to find this site, second, the more reliable methods, ex. SN require a long time to prepare. By then, I think the impulse to die would have already worn off depending on what you count as impulse. Then the rest of the methods, train, falling, hanging, or whatever it is are all pretty self-explanatory methods that people will try even if they don't find this site. That and aside from being used to get suicide information, a lot of people are here for the community and the freedom of speech provided here. In the end, I don't think we should interfere with other people's very personal decisions anyways.

So, yes, to me this site is very much ethical.

 

[CowsAreCool]

By its very definition, depression isn't just a "miserable phase." How much more so if someone is "seriously depressed." I find it questionable that you had "severe depression," otherwise you would know that depression doesn't come in "bouts."

Your choice of words indicates a lack of empathy. Anyone with severe depression would be agitated if someone refer to their genuine feelings so dismissively.

Severe not in a medical way, I guess. Severe to me. It's not a contest.

And nothing I said demonstrates a lack of empathy.

Depression does come in bouts for those with bipolar. That's why it used to be called manic depression.

Yeah. This is what I was referring to. Not sure why I got attacked on this point.

Most of us on this forum are those severely depressed people. It's not our job to protect others from their own mind.
And "ethical", really? Every culture has different ethics, this just seems like a dumb question

So is it ethical in your culture? I don't think ethics are entirely subjective. And yes, if people on here are mentally ill, should they be given resources to CTB? Is that ethical?

These are my questions. And they're reasonable ones

What about the "ethics", of making people live in pain and torment? Lives that those living them, desperately want to end?

I specifically outlined this scenario in my post. Did you read it in its entirety? Those who live in constant pain and make a *rational* weighted decision to CTB are different than those who are going through temporary psychosis, as is common in those with severe depression.

SaSu isn't meant for kids, rules made that clear

Fair, I suppose. There's nothing really that prevents children from creating accounts. Principle vs. practice

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

Thank you. You put it in words in a way that I couldn't. I get "pro-life" arguments, but there are serious concerns, especially once inundated with people who are "pro-death". This type of forum, against its intention, could result in people who might be saved and could be helped choosing to CTB. Especially vulnerable people who would otherwise be helped if they just sought treatment.

We can't pretend everyone on this site is a super rational actor making rational decisions. I see people who give off obvious signs of treatable mental illness.

Well, it's a slow day so I'll bite, anyway it's not like there is much better to do. I just wished to spar with somebody with better arguments than yours tbh. But it is what it is...

I will ignore your simple definition of what depression is because anyway a lot of people get this wrong, no a depressed person is not a person that is sad or miserable by the way.

I said this in another post, almost all countries have the concept of legal age, it is an artificial boundary introduced to decide above which age a person gains control over their own actions and affairs and becomes responsible for the decisions they make. People can be mature enough to do that before the legal age or after, however this cannot be done on a case by case and is usually done during trials.

In SS you need to declare that you of legal age to be subscribed. I am not interested in entering the debate how do we really prove that, twitter, facebook, hell even dating apps do not check this, it is a systemic problem that SS will not solve.

Why would it be ethically wrong to provide a person with information about how to CTB. Excluding the various religious beliefs, I mean? We will all die eventually, what's wrong if at some point I decide that i am tired of the movie and I want to leave the cinema? The other people can continue watching the movie also without me after all.

Some mental conditions are equivalent to a terminally ill patient, and there are indeed situations where euthanasia has been granted for mentally ill patients.

I replied to the part about age in another post. It is simply a problem that cannot be solved here.

Regarding the rest, yes I do see many posts from probably young people (say below 30) for problems that will be solved with time. Most of them are probably just venting. Some may actually take action. tbh who am I to criticize that action? Even assuming that in 10 or 20 years the problems of that person could be solved who am I to say that he/she should endure 10/20 years of pain?

Let them take the decision by themselves.

I am aware what depression is.

I do actually understand your concerns and it's a very difficult topic because it concerns this idea of 'gatekeeping' suicide.

I do happen to agree with you in the regard- that for some people- the fear surrounding the most commonly known methods- jumping/slashing wrists/hanging is enough to put them off carrying it out. Also ODing on OTC meds is notoriously unreliable- so chances are- they'll also fail if they go that route.

I do agree that for SOME people- gaining knowledge of a (relatively) more peaceful method like SN or inert gas means they may actually go ahead and also succeed with the act rather than if they had to use a more violent or unreliable means. (That said- people will likely always be suicidal and those who are desperate and brave enough will do anything to carry it out- Sasu or no Sasu.)

The major issue in my mind is who can get access to this site. I don't know for sure but it does actually concern me that anyone can browse this site without making an account. Does that mean they can also view all the method information? Even a ten year old say?

Personally- I'm not of the opinion that it should be made 'easy' or 'accessible' for everyone to be able to kill themselves. I do think there should be an age limit- probably 18.

Protecting the 'vulnerable' or 'mentally ill' however is a whole lot more complicated. For starters- I imagine having suicidal ideation qualifies you as mentally ill in a lot of professionals minds! Still- I would certainly agree that there are different types of mental illness/depression. I would tentatively say that some are more treatable/likely to pass than others- but I don't know how you would ascertain this.

I do actually think that help should initially at least be offered. Honestly- I don't see how anyone these days would not realise there was help out there but still... Maybe just a brief- if you're unsure of how you feel and would like to talk it over- that help is available. (Maybe also a warning that giving any indication of an actual plan may end up in them being involuntarily sectioned.)

I know I'm likely to get hate for that. I know it sounds very 'pro life.' Still- I'd argue- not everyone is 100% dead set that their life is terrible and never going to improve- so they definitely want to end it. I'd kind of hope someone would come to that conclusion on their own- even if they joined the site. Still- this environment isn't generally one to support 'getting better.' I do happen to agree that to an extent- it can be an echo chamber for misery. I suspect that say a youngster logging on and asking if there is ANY chance of their life getting better isn't going to get a completely balanced response. We might TRY and offer up the chance things MIGHT improve- but we're all living examples that it won't!

It's not to say helplines should be plastered all over here as well (God forbid.) It's maybe more before someone joins the site. Something like: While we are all pro choice here, we do appreciate that suicide CAN be an impulsive act. That it might be worth them just taking time to consider their mental state and that constructive help to live is available- should they CHOOSE to utilise it.

Quite honestly- a lot of my thoughts are terribly selfish. To protect this site. To protect our mods. To protect our users. While I feel desperately heartbroken and sorry for say a 16 year old who gets on here and CTB, I think it's highly likely their parents will come after the site.

I don't think it should be up to us to try and convince anyone to keep trying and keep living on here (In the suicide discussion section anyway.) That would be hypocritical. I imagine the majority of us aren't therapists. We come on here to vent ourselves. I don't feel like it CAN be the responsibility of the users of a site like this to seek out who has the possibility of being 'saved.' Rather- I think it would actually be better to get them to consider that potential themselves before they join.

I do understand what you are getting at and I honestly have very mixed feelings... I watched a YouTube video the other day by Dr Todd Grande. (He makes lots of videos on psychological subjects.) He argued that therapists believe it is right to try and prevent suicide. To back this up- he said that 90% of suicide survivors were later glad that their attempt had failed. He said this was proof that most people would 'regret' having taken their lives. (Yes- he really said that- pretty much.)... The dead likely don't regret anything!! (Depending on your belief on course.)

It's kind of possible many of us COULD perhaps go on to change things around and live happier lives. We might not though. Things may just get worse. Who can say? Sites like these rely on a person self regulating to the greatest extent. I think our personal right to autonomy is terribly important. I do definitely think that sites like these COULD enable someone who was unsure or unstable to do something rash. I just don't know how you could entirely prevent that though...

If psychiatrists can't even seem to diagnose their patients properly (which seems to be the case sometimes), how can we? How can we know if someone is thinking rationally? Will the person themselves even know? (My neighbour said having a mental breakdown to him felt like absolute clarity- seeing the light.) Maybe we are ALL crazy for thinking like this?!! It's the lunatics running the asylum type of deal.

I do get your point and I think it is an important one to consider. Still- personally speaking- I think perhaps even the majority of people who take their lives- and especially seek out a website like this (which isn't easy to find- in my experience) aren't acting impulsively. I imagine they have been thinking about suicide very intensely before they come here. In that sense- I think most people here do have enough mental faculties to make decisions for themselves. (If they truly were that emotionally distraught- would they be able to think at all?)

I just think maybe there ought to be restrictions to prevent just anyone from accessing information (maybe there already are...) Plus perhaps a greater emphasis in the intial sign up process that the person REALLY consider why they want to join and if other options might be viable. That's my take but I can understand why it won't be popular to those who believe EVERYONE, no matter what their age or state of mind should be given every access to end themselves.

This was an amazing take. Thank you for taking the time to write it. It is really notable how many people who are suicidal get better, and are glad they didn't do it. In those cases, I think it's fair to say that suicide, for them, was objectively the wrong decision. But if they had access to a site such as this, they may have otherwise gone through with it.

It's certainly an ethical conundrum, and I don't regret bringing it up.

I remember watching an interview with a man who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. What always stuck with me was that the first thing he felt after jumping was regret. He realized that every problem in his life was solvable, except for the fact that he had just jumped off a bridge. That may be an exact quote.

I think his experience is probably common. Suicide is often, not always, driven by impulse, and suicidal ideation is something people can quite literally snap out of. It's temporary and it isn't rational for some people. And in that context, a site like this could be the difference between life and death for that person.

And I agree that autonomy is incredibly important. I truly believe a site like this should exist for people who are dead set on CTB. I am pro choice in that sense.

There are too much people in the World who suffer because of the absence of euthanasia (try to live with very damaged body and without money, family, friends, nothing..and other very difficult situations), so even if there is a 0,0001 % of collateral damage (but I don't think so) by this site, that must NEVER be a reason to shut it down.
Also, everybody has 99,9% of pro lifers around them IRL and internet. So this extremely little site too few people know about could never concurrence that.
People must have choice, life is already a prison with cruel laws. This site just never should be questioned.

Everything should be questioned. It's healthy. This site itself is a society of people questioning the "pro-life" stance on euthanasia.

There could never be anything wrong with suicide no matter what and it's irrational to suggest such a thing. To die solves all problems after all as it removes the true cause of all of them in the first place and there are simply no disadvantages to being dead. Saying that suicide is tragic is complete nonsense for that exact reason. It's not sad that someone cannot suffer anymore, in fact I see beauty in choosing to free ourselves from an existence that we never asked for. If we continue to exist we have the potential to be tortured to extreme extents and that is horrific to me and completely undesirable. Death is the most normal and expected thing ever, as after all, all that existing is, is just delaying the inevitable. If people want to suffer then that is their choice but they have no right to force their beliefs onto others.

This is an example of a pro-death argument. Not a pro-choice one. If you're happy, is that not better than being nothing? Is being alive a happy not preferable to nothingness?

And that's not even taking into account the effect someone death can have on loved ones

The ethical implications are no different from any other platform spouting any other sort of viewpoints or details about all and any aspect of life and/or death. From any end of the spectrum.
That goes for IRL discussions as well.
It's the freedom of information, which nobody should be barred from partaking in.
Unless you are perfectly fine with unwarranted discrimination.

Death itself isn't even a significant 'harm', nor irrational to expedite in many situations.
The only person who can really judge that is the person forced to live their own life, in their own body, under their own circumstances.
None of which you nor anyone else have to endure.
Death is inevitable regardless, progressive and unrelenting suffering doesn't have to be.

I'm sure plenty of people have gleaned their information/resources from this site, as well as many others.
So what?
It's either that or continue on in misery and/or being forced to resort to a less researched or less ideal method that may be more likely to leave an individual brain damaged or in a far worse position than they were in originally.
There is no life without quality of life.
(Or is that the goal..to label someone as irrational and thus incapable of making their own decisions for themselves, only then for that narrative to force that person into yet another situation where their autonomy is only further stripped from them? Talk about unethical..)
Or they could still succeed in dying but the process could be especially and unnecessarily scary and painful, more so than it would be without the knowledge of a better way.

Shall we keep the most vulnerable (to life) and despairing ignorant to the avenues that will end their suffering?
Is that really something you would want to see established, more so than it already is?
What good does that do? (Besides once again, forcing the suicidal into isolation and clandestine conversation.)
And for whom?
The people left with the "wake of misery"? …are we supposed to give a damn about that, when our own misery is apparently perfectly alright with them.
Why are those left behind also left without the expectation of "moving on" that is placed on the shoulders of the suicidal?

And who are you to say any suicidal person would have otherwise "moved on from their depression and lived a long, happy life"…?
That's quite an assumption. (One which can easily be proven false in plenty of cases.)
And a gamble- on how someone outside of yourself will fare in this world.
Are you an omniscient God who spends their days observing each and every one of these individuals, calculating their odds of departure from their suffering versus the opposite?
Is anyone that?
I think not.

Do you understand pro-choice arguments?
Do you agree that people should have the freedom to make decisions about their own life and body?
(Most of which are unfortunately already made for them, by "fate" or other people.)

Or are the miserable and "mentally ill" suddenly not considered "people" to you?
Because in this society, I'm telling you..where labels are concerned, there is no difference between those two groups.
In fact, most people are considered "mentally ill" postmortem, by default, for the sole reason of having commited suicide..all their life's circumstantial reasonings and social mistreatment being erased for the more palatable story by the status quo.

Why are their arguments for an end to their suffering not cogent to you?
Why?
Just because someone(s) "said so" ?
I don't think you could even manage an answer that would ever stand up against even one other entire existence, which you will never be able to fathom the full context of.
Never mind a whole LOT of lives you will never have to live, and "pro-lifers" will never have to live.

Why is speaking on the negative aspects of life and wanting to escape them-in the only way some can-unreasonable to you? Illogical?
When often times continuing on living is the most insane choice a person in perpetual misery can make…(unless I missed the memo that we are all Catholic tiktokers who fetishize suffering..)
Positivity bias and life-affirming biases are not immune to being unreasonable, illogical, irrational, unenlightened, what have you..and they are especially myopic, yet unlike many suicidal individuals, the pro-life agenda wishes for their near-sightedness to extend its authority outside of its own perimeters, outside of its follower's own lives.
Is that ethical? Is it even moral?

"People who are seriously depressed or 'mentally ill' don't view the world rationally"..

^Where did you get that idea?
Facebook?
Biased research articles that spit in the face of genuine/neutral scientific standards?
"Professionals" who base their entire careers and "education" on a bunk paradigm that appropriates medical terminology & pathologizes the human condition- ironically many of whom would be considered severely "mentally ill" by their own supposed manuals..?
Politicians and the 1% who need to keep their humans in stock to hold up their business practices and their superfluous livelihoods?
People in general, with lives & privileges & inhibitions that just so happened to lead them away from the decision to kill themselves?
Biased, flawed human beings judging other biased, flawed human beings?
Your own self and your own situation…which likely has no bearing on any other?
(Where this is concerned..)

I am also not sure what you mean by "seriously depressed"…considering it makes perfect sense that the worse your life is, the more you would want to die and the more 'depressed'
about it you would be..
Some of your statements just come across as contradictory..

"There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies".

Oh do tell, what you believe that reason to be..
because I can assure you it has little to nothing to do with the best interest of the person committed.
As there are also more reasons why that practice is so heavily criticized by those who had to go through it, or even by empathetic friends and family members who realized the horror and ineffectual nature of such imprisonment.

If you think SS may be an appropriate site for those who somehow have the ability to make a "weighted, rational decision"..then you open the door for that to be true of anyone.
You don't get to gatekeep who that might be, though you could certainly waste your time trying to interfere…until your interference renders that person truly incapable of making their own decisions, and not because they were ever wrong or unreasonable in what they were about to decide..but because they're now a bona fide vegetable, or someone captured behind glass for committing the crime of attempting a decision for themselves while having outside parties be privy to it.

I'm not saying I don't raise an eyebrow at some other peoples' reasons for wanting to die, nor am I saying that impulsive thoughts immediately after a damaging event should always be followed through on..especially not without consideration for other possible options beforehand.
But how are you or anyone going to ensure you select the right people, at the right time..to "protect"?
How are you going to determine what "rational" is when it comes to suicide?
Or who is?
Is it even really about "protecting" them, or is it a form of condescension indicative of a hero complex or other blind and hypocritical ideologies?
(Most who have the capacity to find and navigate a site like this, are already in a position that indicates more room for thoughtfulness than most.
The more impulsive cases never even make it here.)


Let me tell you something.
The world facilitates unwarranted tragedy every day.
People who remain living do that.
Humans continuing the human race and all its impenetrable flaws & foibles do that.
Life itself does that.
Every second of every day..to someone, somewhere.
And yet the focus is on this tiny corner of the internet, the only respite for many who have been burned severely by the above perpetrators..?

If you consider death to be the ultimate tragedy, then there's an issue with your argument right there.
Because there is only ever one thing that leads to death..and that is life.

I appreciate your reply and it's well argued. I don't necessarily disagree with most of your points.

The sum of my argument was this thought experiment, which I should have just wrote explicitly.

Suppose a young adult, with their life ahead of them, starts showing symptoms of bipolar. They have a major depressive episode, and find this site, order SN or use some other method and CTB. When they would have led a long and happy life had they just sought help, and taken mood regulators.

Or say someone suffering from major depressive disorder enters a temporary psychosis. They use this site to CTB. Under psychosis they aren't rational.

What are the ethical implications in these cases?

Some people can be helped. Some people value life. And reading through endless streams of pro-death posts which romanticize CTB isn't helping anyone.

I believe in freedom of information. I just think maybe there's something this community can do to minimize unnecessary tragedy. Such as minimizing the endless stream of posts that needlessly romanticize death.

And to answer your question, they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies because many times they can be helped, and suicide itself has severe negative effects on society (I'm aware you disagree)

 

[Forever Sleep]

It is really notable how many people who are suicidal get better, and are glad they didn't do it. In those cases, I think it's fair to say that suicide, for them, was objectively the wrong decision.

It is an interesting situation. Still, if I'm honest- I think they rather exagerate the amount of people who turn their lives around. They seem to equate the fact that people who fail a suicide attempt quite often go on to die of natural causes with this idea that they became 'happy'. Perhaps they continued living with suicidal ideation the rest of their lives! Yes- they lived- but are all of those 90% glad they did? Some undoubtably were but I doubt all 90% were. Perhaps they were just too afraid to try again?

I even wonder how many people live with ideation almost the entirety of their lives. (It's been 32 years to varying degrees for me...) Do you suppose those people are 'happy' that they gave life a (very long) chance?

I suppose a part of me wonders WHY their lives changed for the better? Perhaps they (finally) received the level of support that they needed. Some people just on here are clearly screaming out for help- to their parents, to their doctors, to their therapists- yet- it clearly isn't working. Some people are just ignored UNTIL they do something extreme. It's sad- but do you think all those people who went on to 'love life' after their attempt would have done so naturally if they hadn't attempted? Or- was it their attempt that catalyzed action? (I'm not saying people should do it to draw attention to themselves- I'm just saying- it invariably does...)

I suspect part of it is biological- a near death experience may well give your body the jolt it needed to fight for life. Still- I reckon it's also a human factor. Scream for help (as the normies like to look at it) that loudly and you're bound to be noticed... Of course- the results AREN'T always positive- many people don't enjoy their stay in a psyche ward.

Honestly- the concept is kind of weird also- that suicide was a 'mistake' because it deprived the person of their (possibly) reasonable life. It all hinges on your belief I suppose. As I see it, for that person- it's over. They're not alive to regret their 'mistake.' If they regretted it the moment they started to CTB- maybe they could stop the process and call for help. If not- those regrets will only last for as long as they are still alive. (Unless you believe in an afterlife/possible consequences/punishment for your actions.) Yes, they COULD have experienced joy again. They could just as well experience a lot more sorrow. Still- seeing as their life/thoughts/experiences are at a full stop now- what does that mean for them?

Put it this way- YOU have been given ENORMOUS potential in being granted a body and life. There are SO many wondrous things you COULD be doing... (yet you- like the rest of us are on a suicide forum...) Does that make your life worth living? Just because something CAN happen- doesn't mean it WILL.

Personally, I am still all for autonomy. I believe most people who CTB (and especially those here) have thought long and hard about their decision.

Living simply because you are terrified of the process of suicide is not the same as living because you want to. I think places like these CAN actually allow people to work out what they want and why they want it. Some people here DO go on to recover after all. For others- life just isn't workable and I think we do deserve the chance to not die in agony if we make the choice to end OUR lives.

 

[hamvil]

I do actually understand your concerns and it's a very difficult topic because it concerns this idea of 'gatekeeping' suicide.

The idea of gatekeeping knowledge is an oxymoron. It did not work in the past no matter of effort of secular state and church, it will work in the future. I am far from being an expert on methods but before finding SS i found using just google several resources on the topic already. By using tool slightly more advanced then google I found far more resources than I could desire. Btw i discovered SS using th NYT article.

I do agree that for SOME people- gaining knowledge of a (relatively) more peaceful method like SN or inert gas means they may actually go ahead and also succeed with the act rather than if they had to use a more violent or unreliable means. (That said- people will likely always be suicidal and those who are desperate and brave enough will do anything to carry it out- Sasu or no Sasu.)

Well as far as I understood using SN requires considerable planning and it is hardly something that you do impulsively.

The major issue in my mind is who can get access to this site. I don't know for sure but it does actually concern me that anyone can browse this site without making an account. Does that mean they can also view all the method information? Even a ten year old say?

10 yo can access all the other material available on internet and there is far more disturbing stuff around there than SS. The problem exists but it is not specific to SS. Maybe it could be solved at the global level but it would require draconian measures suitable for totalitarian states. Do we want those?

Personally- I'm not of the opinion that it should be made 'easy' or 'accessible' for everyone to be able to kill themselves. I do think there should be an age limit- probably 18.

The age declaration is there in the subscription form if I remember ocrrectely.

Protecting the 'vulnerable' or 'mentally ill' however is a whole lot more complicated. For starters- I imagine having suicidal ideation qualifies you as mentally ill in a lot of professionals minds! Still- I would certainly agree that there are different types of mental illness/depression. I would tentatively say that some are more treatable/likely to pass than others- but I don't know how you would ascertain this.

What about protecting child from porn? Vegans from youtube channels about cooking steaks? The whole idea of protecting a certain group of people is broken at the bottom. It is simply not applicable and when you try to apply it you quickly end up in a society with severe censorship.

I do actually think that help should initially at least be offered. Honestly- I don't see how anyone these days would not realise there was help out there but still... Maybe just a brief- if you're unsure of how you feel and would like to talk it over- that help is available. (Maybe also a warning that giving any indication of an actual plan may end up in them being involuntarily sectioned.)

Not sure if already available, but yes there could be somewhere around the forum some sticky post about this. Offering "help" to people da do not require it is rather pointless. If the specific post is open ended there is nothing in pointing possible solutions IMO. But if the poster is requesting specific info on CTB i find it pointless to propose hotlines.

I know I'm likely to get hate for that. I know it sounds very 'pro life.' Still- I'd argue- not everyone is 100% dead set that their life is terrible and never going to improve- so they definitely want to end it. I'd kind of hope someone would come to that conclusion on their own- even if they joined the site. Still- this environment isn't generally one to support 'getting better.' I do happen to agree that to an extent- it can be an echo chamber for misery. I suspect that say a youngster logging on and asking if there is ANY chance of their life getting better isn't going to get a completely balanced response. We might TRY and offer up the chance things MIGHT improve- but we're all living examples that it won't!

I subscribe to the echo chamber point. Tbh with some minor exceptions, i have never seen a post encouraging a person (young or old) to go on with suicide. But yes as stated in another post I do feel in several cases that there are posts from very young people about problems that will likely disappear in a few years. However I rarely act on those posts, not because I could be labelled pro-life or banned but because it is exhausting doing it for all the similar posts.

It's not to say helplines should be plastered all over here as well (God forbid.) It's maybe more before someone joins the site. Something like: While we are all pro choice here, we do appreciate that suicide CAN be an impulsive act. That it might be worth them just taking time to consider their mental state and that constructive help to live is available- should they CHOOSE to utilise it.

I would be curious to know if the majority if information about CTB on this site fall into the impulsive category (e.g., jump from building x meters tall) or fall into the planned suicide methods (e.g., all the SN-related posts). I this the majority is in the second category. Irrespectively, there are plenty of information on the internet about impulsive methods, hell there are list of suggested places for jumping around the world for example.

Quite honestly- a lot of my thoughts are terribly selfish. To protect this site. To protect our mods. To protect our users. While I feel desperately heartbroken and sorry for say a 16 year old who gets on here and CTB, I think it's highly likely their parents will come after the site.

Double standards...

I don't think it should be up to us to try and convince anyone to keep trying and keep living on here (In the suicide discussion section anyway.) That would be hypocritical. I imagine the majority of us aren't therapists. We come on here to vent ourselves. I don't feel like it CAN be the responsibility of the users of a site like this to seek out who has the possibility of being 'saved.' Rather- I think it would actually be better to get them to consider that potential themselves before they join.

No, it is not the responsibility of users to save other users, nor it is the responsibility of the admin.

I do understand what you are getting at and I honestly have very mixed feelings... I watched a YouTube video the other day by Dr Todd Grande. (He makes lots of videos on psychological subjects.) He argued that therapists believe it is right to try and prevent suicide. To back this up- he said that 90% of suicide survivors were later glad that their attempt had failed. He said this was proof that most people would 'regret' having taken their lives. (Yes- he really said that- pretty much.)... The dead likely don't regret anything!! (Depending on your belief on course.)

Broadly speaking people like to succeed at their jobs or in general like to do a job that is productive in some sense. This is especially true for jobs with strong intellectual components (doctors, engineers, etc.). A therapist would simply not like to do a job where he/she is supposed to guide. patient to suicide, it simply would become a dead-end career (sorry for the pun). The job description itself forse the professionals that do it in a certain direction. Indeed after some checking the literature on suicide is rather minimal and mostly go in the same direction. I am a scientist myself and I find this rather depressing for a category as a whole, but maybe there is lack of funds to conduct research on suicides or maybe journals and conferences do not like to publish such study thus researcher are not motivated to study it.

It's kind of possible many of us COULD perhaps go on to change things around and live happier lives. We might not though. Things may just get worse. Who can say? Sites like these rely on a person self regulating to the greatest extent. I think our personal right to autonomy is terribly important. I do definitely think that sites like these COULD enable someone who was unsure or unstable to do something rash. I just don't know how you could entirely prevent that though...

In some cases they will not live happier lives, they will just learn to cope with the problem. Therapist will call this a success and move to the next case. For some people learning how to cope with the problem is all they are looking for, other people (like me) find this coping pointless. Let each one decide.

If psychiatrists can't even seem to diagnose their patients properly (which seems to be the case sometimes), how can we? How can we know if someone is thinking rationally? Will the person themselves even know? (My neighbour said having a mental breakdown to him felt like absolute clarity- seeing the light.) Maybe we are ALL crazy for thinking like this?!! It's the lunatics running the asylum type of deal.

I get the feeling i am not diagnosed properly... i see the problems popping out but when I report them to the doctor I am dismissed quickly, only recently i managed to get a prescription for mood control drug and I will soon see if it works.

I do get your point and I think it is an important one to consider. Still- personally speaking- I think perhaps even the majority of people who take their lives- and especially seek out a website like this (which isn't easy to find- in my experience) aren't acting impulsively. I imagine they have been thinking about suicide very intensely before they come here. In that sense- I think most people here do have enough mental faculties to make decisions for themselves. (If they truly were that emotionally distraught- would they be able to think at all?)

SS is very easy to find tbh... if you google around the NYT article will pop up rather quickly and after that it is easy to google for SS. Well yes in some countries the results could be hidden and you may require a VPN to access it, but generally speaking is not that hard.

I just think maybe there ought to be restrictions to prevent just anyone from accessing information (maybe there already are...) Plus perhaps a greater emphasis in the intial sign up process that the person REALLY consider why they want to join and if other options might be viable. That's my take but I can understand why it won't be popular to those who believe EVERYONE, no matter what their age or state of mind should be given every access to end themselves.

It is just not practical and in general is not required for sites dealing with porn, guns, drugs, etc.

Severe not in a medical way, I guess. Severe to me. It's not a contest.

You are rather confused on what depression is, for example on what is the difference between reactive and major depression.

I am aware what depression is.

Nahh, not really man.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Forever Sleep said:
Quite honestly- a lot of my thoughts are terribly selfish. To protect this site. To protect our mods. To protect our users. While I feel desperately heartbroken and sorry for say a 16 year old who gets on here and CTB, I think it's highly likely their parents will come after the site.

Double standards...

Only Double standards if you believe children should be allowed on here... Do you think it's unfair that they're not? (Officially)

I'm not 16 years old... I'm 42 years old. I've been suicidal since I was 10. I'm not sure it would have hastened my trip to the grave if I had found this site earlier to be honest. My reasons for not doing it then are the same as now. (Hence- I'm still here.) Still- I don't think it would have done me any good if I had found this site aged 10, 12, 16.

I know it's likely not even possible to restrict the internet (not just this site- acknowledged.) Still- I personally think it would be better if children didn't have access to material of this nature (and porn and extreme violence and all the other things you mentioned.) I appreciate that likely isn't even possible.

Just from a theoretical standpoint though- I think you do have more support systems and more opportunities to change when you are younger. I also think that you are more impressionable. I don't think this place gives a thoroughly balanced outlook on life. I think it's easy to become focussed/lost on certain things and emotions when you're young. At least when we're older- we have more awareness that we are doing it! It feels more of a choice.

Personally- I do think material of this nature should be restricted from children. You can call that a 'double standard' if you like. I also freely admit to the fact that my motivations are also selfish. I don't want the site, or any of its members to get into trouble.

Obviously no one here is encoraging another member to take their own life but how responsible is it to instruct (possibly a child) on EXACTLY how to do it? If I told a terrorist how EXACTLY to make a bomb- would I be entirely innocent if they made one and killed people with it? (I don't know how to make bombs- just for clarity.)

Also- the bit about the helplines... I wasn't suggesting that individual members start doing that in posts! I think that would drive us all nuts! I think we do already suggest things like therapy if someone seems open to it.

I just think- in the signing up process- MAYBE there needs to be more onus on the applicant- that alternative help IS available should they be undecided on how they feel. Also- I hate to say it but that this place (by it's very nature) tends to biase towards a very negative Nihilistic view of the world- which may not help everyone if they are in a confused or impressionable state.

At the end of the day- the onus HAS to be on the individual- which is ALWAYS going to cause problems when most 'normies' would insist that we are ALL vulnerable and unhinged for having these thoughts in the first place!

Still- I enjoyed your responses and agreed with the majority of them- so- thank you for the reply.