Is SS ethical?

[CowsAreCool]

What are the ethical implications of the existence of SS?

As a hypothetical, what if someone CTB after reading resources on SS, when otherwise they wouldn't have. When otherwise they would have eventually moved on from their depression, etc. and lived a long happy life? But instead they leave misery in their wake.

I understand pro-choice arguments. I agree people should be free to make their own decisions about their own life and body.

But what about the mentally ill? What about those who aren't in a state of mind where they are rational? People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety. I wouldn't call myself rational during those periods. At all. There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies.

SS might be an appropriate site for people who have made a weighted, rational decision to end their lives. For a multitude of reasons.

But what about the mentally ill? What if a young and impressionable teen finds this site? What about people who aren't rational? How do we protect them?

This site could be facilitating unwarranted tragedy.

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

 

[GettingOut]

People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety.

By its very definition, depression isn't just a "miserable phase." How much more so if someone is "seriously depressed." I find it questionable that you had "severe depression," otherwise you would know that depression doesn't come in "bouts."

Your choice of words indicates a lack of empathy. Anyone with severe depression would be agitated if someone refer to their genuine feelings so dismissively.

 

[amelis]

People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally.

Most of us on this forum are those severely depressed people. It's not our job to protect others from their own mind.
And "ethical", really? Every culture has different ethics, this just seems like a dumb question

 

[rationaltake]

By its very definition, depression isn't just a "miserable phase." How much more so if someone is "seriously depressed." I find it questionable that you had "severe depression," otherwise you would know that depression doesn't come in "bouts."

Depression does come in bouts for those with bipolar. That's why it used to be called manic depression.

 

[rpxrpl]

First off, there's no way of knowing whether someone would have had a better life. To prevent someone from killing themself because they might have a good life is like preventing a mother from aborting because she might like having a kid. You shouldn't get to make decisions for other people. All you should do is offer advice and resources, and let them choose what to do.

Secondly, who defines "irrational"? Therapists by the nature of their job define anyone who is suicidal as irrational or at least mentally ill. Most people agree with them since they have never even had a suicidal thought. This website exists because most people don't understand us and will go out of their way to try to stop us including infringing on our privacy and rights. In an ideal world, you get to choose to keep living and can opt out for any reason, including "irrational" ones. It's your choice, that's the point.

 

[makethepainstop]

What are the ethical implications of the existence of SS?

As a hypothetical, what if someone CTB after reading resources on SS, when otherwise they wouldn't have. When otherwise they would have eventually moved on from their depression, etc. and lived a long happy life? But instead they leave misery in their wake.

I understand pro-choice arguments. I agree people should be free to make their own decisions about their own life and body.

But what about the mentally ill? What about those who aren't in a state of mind where they are rational? People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety. I wouldn't call myself rational during those periods. At all. There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies.

SS might be an appropriate site for people who have made a weighted, rational decision to end their lives. For a multitude of reasons.

But what about the mentally ill? What if a young and impressionable teen finds ko this site? What about people who aren't rational? How do we protect them?

This site could be facilitating unwarranted tragedgy.

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

What about the "ethics", of making people live in pain and torment? Lives that those living them, desperately want to end?

 

[Himalayan]

What are the ethical implications of the existence of SS?

As a hypothetical, what if someone CTB after reading resources on SS, when otherwise they wouldn't have. When otherwise they would have eventually moved on from their depression, etc. and lived a long happy life? But instead they leave misery in their wake.

I understand pro-choice arguments. I agree people should be free to make their own decisions about their own life and body.

But what about the mentally ill? What about those who aren't in a state of mind where they are rational? People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety. I wouldn't call myself rational during those periods. At all. There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies.

SS might be an appropriate site for people who have made a weighted, rational decision to end their lives. For a multitude of reasons.

But what about the mentally ill? What if a young and impressionable teen finds this site? What about people who aren't rational? How do we protect them?

This site could be facilitating unwarranted tragedy.

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

SaSu isn't meant for kids, rules made that clear

 

[Lotus]

If you want to off yourself you will find a way no matter the existence of this site. This site allows suicidal people to connect and talk about an issue that no one wants to go near. It is very precious imo. You don't look up this site unless you are struggling, or having an agenda of some sort.

 

[jodes2]

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

 

[Himalayan]

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

What can be done? Start Asking for IDs?

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

Please....

1. How do you suppose we screen people to make sure they are 18+? Have them show the admin/mods ID? The whole point of this thread is for people to post in confidence without their privacy compromised.

2. No one, except the occasional troll, is pro death. All because people get on your case about injecting false hope onto someone in a thread where they are seemingly at peace with CTBing, does not make them pro death. I have told you countless times in chat and on your "good bye sasu" thread (which aged horribly), that most if not all people who post in the suicide section either
A. Explored any and all possible solutions to what brought them here and have decided that CTB is their best course of action
B. have decided that the quality of life they would have after attempting to treat their problems is not worth it and have decided not to pursue treatment
C. Just don't see any inherent value to life and want out.

It is not your job to use people on this site as a surrogate for yourself and play savior for them. You need to address your own problems and reasons for being here, and let people make their own choices.

You claim that things get better for many, but how do you know that is the case for people here without walking in their shoes? What crystal ball do you possess that allows you to look into people's futures here? On that note, define better? How better? A tiny bit better? or significantly better? if it's a very insignificant amount, is it worth it for them to continue on with a shitty life? How do you determine what is "better" for other people?

It is very safe to assume that those that went out of their way to find this site did so because they determined that they don't want to live in their life anymore. This site is also not pro death like you make it out to be. We do have a recovery section and recovery chat here. It is not your or my place to tell someone else's life is worth living. Only the beholder of that life can make that determination, and we should respect them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making the most rational choice they are, even if we disagree with it.

 

[hamvil]

What are the ethical implications of the existence of SS?

As a hypothetical, what if someone CTB after reading resources on SS, when otherwise they wouldn't have. When otherwise they would have eventually moved on from their depression, etc. and lived a long happy life? But instead they leave misery in their wake.

I understand pro-choice arguments. I agree people should be free to make their own decisions about their own life and body.

But what about the mentally ill? What about those who aren't in a state of mind where they are rational? People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety. I wouldn't call myself rational during those periods. At all. There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies.

SS might be an appropriate site for people who have made a weighted, rational decision to end their lives. For a multitude of reasons.

But what about the mentally ill? What if a young and impressionable teen finds this site? What about people who aren't rational? How do we protect them?

This site could be facilitating unwarranted tragedy.

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

Well, it's a slow day so I'll bite, anyway it's not like there is much better to do. I just wished to spar with somebody with better arguments than yours tbh. But it is what it is...

I will ignore your simple definition of what depression is because anyway a lot of people get this wrong, no a depressed person is not a person that is sad or miserable by the way.

I said this in another post, almost all countries have the concept of legal age, it is an artificial boundary introduced to decide above which age a person gains control over their own actions and affairs and becomes responsible for the decisions they make. People can be mature enough to do that before the legal age or after, however this cannot be done on a case by case and is usually done during trials.

In SS you need to declare that you of legal age to be subscribed. I am not interested in entering the debate how do we really prove that, twitter, facebook, hell even dating apps do not check this, it is a systemic problem that SS will not solve.

Why would it be ethically wrong to provide a person with information about how to CTB. Excluding the various religious beliefs, I mean? We will all die eventually, what's wrong if at some point I decide that i am tired of the movie and I want to leave the cinema? The other people can continue watching the movie also without me after all.

Some mental conditions are equivalent to a terminally ill patient, and there are indeed situations where euthanasia has been granted for mentally ill patients.

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

I replied to the part about age in another post. It is simply a problem that cannot be solved here.

Regarding the rest, yes I do see many posts from probably young people (say below 30) for problems that will be solved with time. Most of them are probably just venting. Some may actually take action. tbh who am I to criticize that action? Even assuming that in 10 or 20 years the problems of that person could be solved who am I to say that he/she should endure 10/20 years of pain?

Let them take the decision by themselves.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do actually understand your concerns and it's a very difficult topic because it concerns this idea of 'gatekeeping' suicide.

I do happen to agree with you in the regard- that for some people- the fear surrounding the most commonly known methods- jumping/slashing wrists/hanging is enough to put them off carrying it out. Also ODing on OTC meds is notoriously unreliable- so chances are- they'll also fail if they go that route.

I do agree that for SOME people- gaining knowledge of a (relatively) more peaceful method like SN or inert gas means they may actually go ahead and also succeed with the act rather than if they had to use a more violent or unreliable means. (That said- people will likely always be suicidal and those who are desperate and brave enough will do anything to carry it out- Sasu or no Sasu.)

The major issue in my mind is who can get access to this site. I don't know for sure but it does actually concern me that anyone can browse this site without making an account. Does that mean they can also view all the method information? Even a ten year old say?

Personally- I'm not of the opinion that it should be made 'easy' or 'accessible' for everyone to be able to kill themselves. I do think there should be an age limit- probably 18.

Protecting the 'vulnerable' or 'mentally ill' however is a whole lot more complicated. For starters- I imagine having suicidal ideation qualifies you as mentally ill in a lot of professionals minds! Still- I would certainly agree that there are different types of mental illness/depression. I would tentatively say that some are more treatable/likely to pass than others- but I don't know how you would ascertain this.

I do actually think that help should initially at least be offered. Honestly- I don't see how anyone these days would not realise there was help out there but still... Maybe just a brief- if you're unsure of how you feel and would like to talk it over- that help is available. (Maybe also a warning that giving any indication of an actual plan may end up in them being involuntarily sectioned.)

I know I'm likely to get hate for that. I know it sounds very 'pro life.' Still- I'd argue- not everyone is 100% dead set that their life is terrible and never going to improve- so they definitely want to end it. I'd kind of hope someone would come to that conclusion on their own- even if they joined the site. Still- this environment isn't generally one to support 'getting better.' I do happen to agree that to an extent- it can be an echo chamber for misery. I suspect that say a youngster logging on and asking if there is ANY chance of their life getting better isn't going to get a completely balanced response. We might TRY and offer up the chance things MIGHT improve- but we're all living examples that it won't!

It's not to say helplines should be plastered all over here as well (God forbid.) It's maybe more before someone joins the site. Something like: While we are all pro choice here, we do appreciate that suicide CAN be an impulsive act. That it might be worth them just taking time to consider their mental state and that constructive help to live is available- should they CHOOSE to utilise it.

Quite honestly- a lot of my thoughts are terribly selfish. To protect this site. To protect our mods. To protect our users. While I feel desperately heartbroken and sorry for say a 16 year old who gets on here and CTB, I think it's highly likely their parents will come after the site.

I don't think it should be up to us to try and convince anyone to keep trying and keep living on here (In the suicide discussion section anyway.) That would be hypocritical. I imagine the majority of us aren't therapists. We come on here to vent ourselves. I don't feel like it CAN be the responsibility of the users of a site like this to seek out who has the possibility of being 'saved.' Rather- I think it would actually be better to get them to consider that potential themselves before they join.

I do understand what you are getting at and I honestly have very mixed feelings... I watched a YouTube video the other day by Dr Todd Grande. (He makes lots of videos on psychological subjects.) He argued that therapists believe it is right to try and prevent suicide. To back this up- he said that 90% of suicide survivors were later glad that their attempt had failed. He said this was proof that most people would 'regret' having taken their lives. (Yes- he really said that- pretty much.)... The dead likely don't regret anything!! (Depending on your belief on course.)

It's kind of possible many of us COULD perhaps go on to change things around and live happier lives. We might not though. Things may just get worse. Who can say? Sites like these rely on a person self regulating to the greatest extent. I think our personal right to autonomy is terribly important. I do definitely think that sites like these COULD enable someone who was unsure or unstable to do something rash. I just don't know how you could entirely prevent that though...

If psychiatrists can't even seem to diagnose their patients properly (which seems to be the case sometimes), how can we? How can we know if someone is thinking rationally? Will the person themselves even know? (My neighbour said having a mental breakdown to him felt like absolute clarity- seeing the light.) Maybe we are ALL crazy for thinking like this?!! It's the lunatics running the asylum type of deal.

I do get your point and I think it is an important one to consider. Still- personally speaking- I think perhaps even the majority of people who take their lives- and especially seek out a website like this (which isn't easy to find- in my experience) aren't acting impulsively. I imagine they have been thinking about suicide very intensely before they come here. In that sense- I think most people here do have enough mental faculties to make decisions for themselves. (If they truly were that emotionally distraught- would they be able to think at all?)

I just think maybe there ought to be restrictions to prevent just anyone from accessing information (maybe there already are...) Plus perhaps a greater emphasis in the intial sign up process that the person REALLY consider why they want to join and if other options might be viable. That's my take but I can understand why it won't be popular to those who believe EVERYONE, no matter what their age or state of mind should be given every access to end themselves.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Well, according to a professional ethicist whose blog I used to follow and to whose attention the topic of this site came after the NYT hit job, it didn't require any explanation on his part as to why a "killer website " was unethical...

I think no matter how thoroughly we do our due diligence as regards the legitimacy of other people's desires to CTB, there will be always be people who slip through and who probably could've made it out on the other side of their suicidal feelings. But the case with the mental health system, which is seen as the counterpart to this site, as well. It fails people too and makes decisions for people that harm them rather than help. They have to be held to the same standards. I don't think the imperfect nature of this site takes away its validity and legitimacy but of course that doesn't mean we should continue to do our best. Young people are consistently encouraged to explore other paths. I wouldn't like it if people probed my qualifications for CTB, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to help people assess whether the hull of their rational suicide has any leaks.

 

[Jarni]

There are too much people in the World who suffer because of the absence of euthanasia (try to live with very damaged body and without money, family, friends, nothing..and other very difficult situations), so even if there is a 0,0001 % of collateral damage (but I don't think so) by this site, that must NEVER be a reason to shut it down.
Also, everybody has 99,9% of pro lifers around them IRL and internet. So this extremely little site too few people know about could never concurrence that.
People must have choice, life is already a prison with cruel laws. This site just never should be questioned.

 

[western_heart]

People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally.

Speak for yourself! The world sucks, not my understanding of it. It's because I know the world is not kind to people who are sick like me that I want to die.

 

[jodes2]

Please....

1. How do you suppose we screen people to make sure they are 18+? Have them show the admin/mods ID? The whole point of this thread is for people to post in confidence without their privacy compromised.

2. No one, except the occasional troll, is pro death. All because people get on your case about injecting false hope onto someone in a thread where they are seemingly at peace with CTBing, does not make them pro death. I have told you countless times in chat and on your "good bye sasu" thread (which aged horribly), that most if not all people who post in the suicide section either
A. Explored any and all possible solutions to what brought them here and have decided that CTB is their best course of action
B. have decided that the quality of life they would have after attempting to treat their problems is not worth it and have decided not to pursue treatment
C. Just don't see any inherent value to life and want out.

It is not your job to use people on this site as a surrogate for yourself and play savior for them. You need to address your own problems and reasons for being here, and let people make their own choices.

You claim that things get better for many, but how do you know that is the case for people here without walking in their shoes? What crystal ball do you possess that allows you to look into people's futures here? On that note, define better? How better? A tiny bit better? or significantly better? if it's a very insignificant amount, is it worth it for them to continue on with a shitty life? How do you determine what is "better" for other people?

It is very safe to assume that those that went out of their way to find this site did so because they determined that they don't want to live in their life anymore. This site is also not pro death like you make it out to be. We do have a recovery section and recovery chat here. It is not your or my place to tell someone else's life is worth living. Only the beholder of that life can make that determination, and we should respect them enough to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are making the most rational choice they are, even if we disagree with it.

You obviously came into this thread looking for a fight. Well I'm not going to argue with you. But you need to realise that you're being combative and emotionally investing yourself in this argument. It's not worth it. I still think you're being unreasonable, especially bringing my past on this forum to try and make your point. Toxic. I stand by most of what I said

 

[FuneralCry]

There could never be anything wrong with suicide no matter what and it's irrational to suggest such a thing. To die solves all problems after all as it removes the true cause of all of them in the first place and there are simply no disadvantages to being dead. Saying that suicide is tragic is complete nonsense for that exact reason. It's not sad that someone cannot suffer anymore, in fact I see beauty in choosing to free ourselves from an existence that we never asked for. If we continue to exist we have the potential to be tortured to extreme extents and that is horrific to me and completely undesirable. Death is the most normal and expected thing ever, as after all, all that existing is, is just delaying the inevitable. If people want to suffer then that is their choice but they have no right to force their beliefs onto others.

Wanting to keep others here against their wishes is cruel and insane. It disturbs me when people wish to force their delusional pro life and life valuing beliefs onto others even on this website, like why are people even here in the first place when they have those kind of beliefs where they glorify life to such an extreme extent but they probably have an agenda to take the site down in reality.

But no I'm sorry but it's a pro choice website respecting the right to die, not a suicide must be the last resort, lets go and force our toxic positivity beliefs on others!!! type forum. I just think that some privileged people are in denial of the fact that not everyone values life. The simple fact is that if someone wants to die they should be able to. It's nothing to do with anyone else and nobody else has any right to interfere. People with their pro life beliefs are just making this world a worse place and are contributing to the stigma associated with suicide. Because of the way that suicide is viewed in society and the lack of a right to die, so much unnecessary suffering will inevitably be experienced and that is the true tragic thing.

 

[Pentobarbital_Plz]

The information available here is not unique to this site…

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

I think for the majority of visitors, this site poses no real "risk." The protocols one must follow take time to implement which makes an impulsive ctb virtually impossible.

Of course it is conceivable that someone very young or emotionally unbalanced stumbles across this page and that would be a bit of a shame. Ideally, all busses would be caught with a mature, sound mind. But at the end of the day, it's a person's own choice to act on what they find irrespective of their age or mindset.

One ethical dilemma that did occur to me is that of this site often remaining in the back of people's minds even after they leave. Having something you can keep going back to over the years as in my case kind of reinforces the idea that "hey, ctb will always be here for you." I think in that respect it's a bit like advertising. Professional marketers know you're not likely to act on something the first time you see it. It needs to circle around in your mind for some time first.

That might seem reassuring to someone who wants to end their life but it could potentially be seen as a bit dangerous too, depending on your perspective.

I'm glad ss has been here for me throughout everything though. I've met some great people through it if nothing else.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

You obviously came into this thread looking for a fight. Well I'm not going to argue with you. But you need to realise that you're being combative and emotionally investing yourself in this argument. It's not worth it. I still think you're being unreasonable, especially bringing my past on this forum to try and make your point. Toxic. I stand by most of what I said

No i did not. Someone disagreeing with you does not mean they are looking for fight. Get off your high horse.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I think this site is a mixed bag. Has it influenced impulsive people in a mental health crisis to CTB when they would have recovered had they not found this place? Probably. Has it given people who have suffered for years and years with little hope of recovery access to better methods and support? Yep.

 

[PrisonBreak]

I agree that some users are susceptible to certain information on this site and I also think that other users are being influenced in a surreptitious way that they end up making their final decision without having to have consciously done so. And that's harmful, In my opinion.

 

[right:sun]

"If I were to be totally sincere, I would say that I do not know why I live and why I do not stop living. The answer probably lies in the irrational character of life which maintains itself without reason."
E.M. Cioran
Rational, irrational; we will get nowhere calling "crazy" people crazy and saying that the crazy person must not be listened to. I claim being crazy. Life is irrational.
Cioran did not support suicide, however he supported contemplating suicide. I think that is a good perspective to this. We shouldn't shy from what is the pain within. Even the darkest dark. I think that if we do not get a chance to speak our mind about suicide and discuss and talk and turn it inside out and understand it (IRL many don't get this chance, we get called irrational and we get locked up and drugged to the point of not recognizing the face in the mirror)... I think there is a risk in that too. And it comes with great pain, shutting parts of yourself away. Especially such a cruicial thing as "I no longer wish to live". There are ethical arguments to why this site should exist other than the right of choice-argument.
For me personally, finding this site was a point of relief. Breathing out. I will not be judged. There is a place for this topic. And shall I ever want to go through with it, I now know there are some people in the world who will not judge me and shame me for doing so.

 

[lionetta12]

What are the ethical implications of the existence of SS?

As a hypothetical, what if someone CTB after reading resources on SS, when otherwise they wouldn't have. When otherwise they would have eventually moved on from their depression, etc. and lived a long happy life? But instead they leave misery in their wake.

I understand pro-choice arguments. I agree people should be free to make their own decisions about their own life and body.

But what about the mentally ill? What about those who aren't in a state of mind where they are rational? People who are seriously depressed or mentally ill don't view the world rationally. They might believe their entire future is miserable, simply because they are going into a miserable phase. I've had bouts of severe depression and anxiety. I wouldn't call myself rational during those periods. At all. There's a reason they put people in hospitals for suicidal tendencies.

SS might be an appropriate site for people who have made a weighted, rational decision to end their lives. For a multitude of reasons.

But what about the mentally ill? What if a young and impressionable teen finds this site? What about people who aren't rational? How do we protect them?

This site could be facilitating unwarranted tragedy.

Do you agree? What are the ethical implications? What can be done to alleviate them?

I went to my doctor and talked about suicide today and asked her if I should make a will, you'd think that she «ethically» would prevent any of these things or interfere and she didn't, she said that's up to me. The idea of what is ethical and moral, I don't even think about it anymore, everyone «ethical» and «moral» I know is jsut messed up now.

 

[Jarni]

"If I were to be totally sincere, I would say that I do not know why I live and why I do not stop living. The answer probably lies in the irrational character of life which maintains itself without reason."
E.M. Coiran
Rational, irrational; we will get nowhere calling "crazy" people crazy and saying that the crazy person must not be listened to. I claim being crazy. Life is irrational.
Coiran did not support suicide, however he supported contemplating suicide. I think that is a good perspective to this. We shouldn't shy from what is the pain within. Even the darkest dark. I think that if we do not get a chance to speak our mind about suicide and discuss and talk and turn it inside out and understand it (IRL many don't get this chance, we get called irrational and we get locked up and drugged to the point of not recognizing the face in the mirror)... I think there is a risk in that too. And it comes with great pain, shutting parts of yourself away. Especially such a cruicial thing as "I no longer wish to live". There are ethical arguments to why this site should exist other than the right of choice-argument.
For me personally, finding this site was a point of relief. Breathing out. I will not be judged. There is a place for this topic. And shall I ever want to go through with it, I now know there are some people in the world who will not judge me and shame me for doing so.

I love Cioran so much. It is my favorite philosopher.

 

[right:sun]

I love Cioran so much. It is my favorite philosopher.

I can never spell his name right.

 

[Jarni]

I can never spell his name right.

:-)
It was funny, when my tunisian friend's father saw a big book of Cioran in his library and said "Ah finally you read Quran!" (my friend is totally atheist and Quran in french is Coran)

 

[Rainy_days]

I think we should be honest that this site has potential to be both good and bad, depending on the unique individual who finds it and their circumstances. I'm sure everyone driven to seek this site due to their own suicidality is well aware of how oppressive and hurtful the extreme anti-suicide crusaders often are. But I also think the opposite extreme of death worship and hatred of all life is also quite corrosive and damaging. I feel very uncomfortable with the thought of someone who is very impressionable or vulnerable being subjected to either of these extremes.

 

[Celerity]

I completely agree. Unfortunately to enable pro-choice activities, many sacrifices are made. There are also, unfortunately, many die-hard pro-choice/pro-death people on this site unwilling to even acknowledge this, let alone take corrective measures. Much could be done, and isn't. I don't know why people are so stubborn about it. Maybe they deep down fear that they could themselves be considered irrational and it irks them beyond belief. It's a sign of irrationality, if you ask me, confirming my suspicion. But what can you do. They're determined to die. It reminds me of Americans so in love with guns they'd rather endanger their children than give up their beloved guns. Pro-death people on this site don't like to admit that life can get better for many. It's a sickness. But it's a consequence of this site being so welcoming to all. Especially to particularly young adults who happen to be rather impulsive. Plus we don't really even know how many kids are on this site - probably more than we like to admit. But everyone has a voice, and pressure is on to conform. Watch my comment get angry faces.

Which steps would you take? I am supportive of locking down the site to registered users only and possibly extending the wait time for a new account.