is mental health really that much worse in men?

[OdeToTheMets]

Gender is such an inherent divide in society. No matter what, anyone could claim that the opposite gender could never understand their experience, because we've all only just lived one life as what we are.

Sometimes I do feel like things are harder as a guy. It means you're not inherently special. It's so easy to just be invisible and not even notice it. People don't outwardly WANT to be your friend unless you make yourself worth it to them. You're not a prize and aren't obligated to be cared for.

But I'm afraid to even say anything close to that in real life because it would easily be denied by anyone whose not having it. You could say I just have a self-serving bias that attributes to my gender troubles that anyone would have, and how would I even say you're wrong.

What do you guys think? Is it really harder, mentally, to be a guy over a girl? It would explain the difference in suicide rates and I feel it's true, but it's not something I can usually discuss.

 

[sserafim]

I'm a girl so I wouldn't know how guys feel, but I thought that guys don't cry. I thought that they always stayed strong. I've never seen men express any emotion other than rage, anger, annoyance, frustration and indifference (maybe also happiness?) I've never seen a guy cry or be sad before. Before coming onto this forum, I didn't know that guys could feel sad, down or depressed too. I thought that sadness and depression were feminine/female things

 

[RosesFlourish]

Each gender has their own struggles. But yes while I can't say men have it worse, they definitely struggle. There's so much societal pressure to suppress your emotions, be the strong one, "man" up" as the saying goes. It's near impossible to show all their emotions outside of forums like this.

 

[MewtwoIsAlive]

Each gender has their own struggles. But yes while I can't say men have it worse, they definitely struggle. There's so much societal pressure to suppress your emotions, be the strong one, "man" up" as the saying goes. It's near impossible to show all their emotions outside of forums like this.

This and also the obv reason that girls get much more attention and "care" than men. There are more depressed and lonely men if you up the statistics aswell as suicides.

 

[smalleiers]

There's a 75/25, split in suicides for a reason. Men often times see no way to progress or maintain their position in life, as societal programming imprints them to be the "strong" gender. Men are in general extremely unrepresented in mental health, it's much more accepted when women have emotional troubles while men get told to toughen up, or to be above it. It doesn't help that men and emotional availability is still a stigma and only recent generations tried to be more accepting of men and their struggles. Still a long way to go, and I can say from personal experience that we get invalidated a lot if we show emotions and try to talk about our problems

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think the main problem is when people start to make it a competition. Especially when they want sympathy from the opposite sex. Saying your own experience is worse than theirs immediately belittles their problems. That goes for both sexes though. We do both fall into that trap- 'it's all right for you, I have it so much worse' type of thing.

But sure. Men have their own unique struggles. I'm not so sure their actual problems are worse. It's more that they aren't encouraged to talk about them or show them- which compounds the problem. I've known both men and women with enormous problems though.

As for women being treated as special because they are women- that depends on the other person. Some people do have a biased respect for women. Others are hugely misogynistic. They hate women because they are women. You keep getting all these snide comments. I'm sure most women have encountered people like that.

So, it's not all roses for either sex I'd say. But sure- men certainly have unique challenges the same as women do and it's important for us all to be aware of them.

 

[Dark Moon]

It's hard being a man because society just cares about women more and society painting men as toxic.

You also can't really open up whatsoever because you will be told to man up/mocked/judged/shamed. I myself posted last week about how I felt and I'm probably getting judged negatively for it even in a place like this. I should have kept that to myself and I don't cry.

There's probably lots of men out there that have been left behind and society doesn't care. I myself don't have a social or support worker even though I'm autistic. I think I see why the suicide rate is so high for men.

Also, loneliness and difficulty finding partners.

 

[Pikmin]

Men are expected to carry the world on their shoulders, then their girlfriend/wife cheats on them.

 

[druggedonsurvival]

Women have been systematically oppressed throughout most of history, so I'd say they have it harder in general. There is something to be said about the stigma of mental health in men, though. Overall I agree with @Forever Sleep 's point that it's not a competition and that the issues that both genders face ought to be acknowledged.

 

[ForsakenDial]

Gender is such an inherent divide in society. No matter what, anyone could claim that the opposite gender could never understand their experience, because we've all only just lived one life as what we are.

Sometimes I do feel like things are harder as a guy. It means you're not inherently special. It's so easy to just be invisible and not even notice it. People don't outwardly WANT to be your friend unless you make yourself worth it to them. You're not a prize and aren't obligated to be cared for.

But I'm afraid to even say anything close to that in real life because it would easily be denied by anyone whose not having it. You could say I just have a self-serving bias that attributes to my gender troubles that anyone would have, and how would I even say you're wrong.

What do you guys think? Is it really harder, mentally, to be a guy over a girl? It would explain the difference in suicide rates and I feel it's true, but it's not something I can usually discuss.

Only woman who are attractive have people who want to be their friend. If you're an ugly woman, you will be the target of beautiful woman. And because everyone wants to be friends with beautiful woman, they will join them in attacking you.

Everything you said applies to both men and woman. I, and many others know what it is like to only be treated well if they have something to offer. Never in my life have I been treated well by anyone unless they had something to gain from it.

Beautiful woman are treated well because she offers something to men; Her body. A lot of men only see a woman's value in her appearance. This gives her a higher social standing. Other woman treat her well because by being adjacent to her they also increase their social standing.

No one cares about ugly woman. Society ignores ugly woman. Or they bully and mock them. I'm not saying you are, but most of them do. It is not a gender issue, its an issue with society's hatred for those who differ from the norms. Unfair norms that hurt both men and woman. An ugly woman who is autistic is just as hated, lonely, bullied, and dismissed as her male counterpart. She'll be misled by a guy, and left pregnant, "used", and homeless. Then deemed a whore for being manipulated.

Both genders suffer.

 

[WretchedDreams]

It's hard being a man because society just cares about women more and society painting men as toxic.

You also can't really open up whatsoever because you will be told to man up/mocked/judged/shamed. I myself posted last week about how I felt and I'm probably getting judged negatively for it even in a place like this. I should have kept that to myself and I don't cry.

There's probably lots of men out there that have been left behind and society doesn't care. I myself don't have a social or support worker even though I'm autistic. I think I see why the suicide rate is so high for men.

Also, loneliness and difficulty finding partners.

You're right. The male sex is considered disposable for pure stochastic reasons: sperm is a cheap cell while the egg is a lot more expensive. A country at war can afford to lose all the men as long as only one survives. If that country loses most of its women then it's basically on borrowed time. Just an example of the disposable view on the male sex.

My late brother showed me how it was, girls in his classes (he was studying at the Faculty of Psychology) told him to open up and not keep his feelings to himself... and the moment he showed vulnerability they made a false rape accusation that ruined his life. And I know for a fact it was false because he was with me and three other people at the time when the girl said that he had assaulted her.

The part of finding a partner is x100 more difficult for men, that's true. And since pairing is a biological-evolutionary-social pressure, it becomes the purest source of hopelessness. Im so sorry.

 

[smalleiers]

You're right. The male sex is considered disposable for pure stochastic reasons: sperm is a cheap cell while the egg is a lot more expensive. A country at war can afford to lose all the men as long as only one survives. If that country loses most of its women then it's basically on borrowed time. Just an example of the disposable view on the male sex.

My late brother showed me how it was, girls in his classes (he was studying at the Faculty of Psychology) told him to open up and not keep his feelings to himself... and the moment he showed vulnerability they made a false rape accusation that ruined his life. And I know for a fact it was false because he was with me and three other people at the time when the girl said that he had assaulted her.

The part of finding a partner is x100 more difficult for men, that's true. And since pairing is a biological-evolutionary-social pressure, it becomes the purest source of hopelessness. Im so sorry.

Thats why the thought of century long suppression of women is a new one. Ancient civilizations always put women above men because of those reasons. While they didn't have the same rights and opportunities they were forced into a mold that allowed society to survive. I'd even argue that being a homemaker is a more taxing job than hard labor. Women were the cogs that kept the machine running and I am so happy that equality has stepped up a notch and tried to even out differences.

However we ended up with a system that ensures competition in every aspect of life, even courtship. This results in tons of men and women being unable to compete. Everyone who tried online dating like Tinder knows what I mean. We have rising numbers of men who never engaged in relationships or sexual activity that have never been seen before, and in essence have a young male population with no perspective, hope for the future or will to be alive. They are bored, frustrated and lonely which makes them vulnerable to certain political demographics and ideologies. The modern left hates itself, but the modern right hates everyone but their own. If you give impressionable people a sense of belonging when everyone else rejects them they will take it without a doubt.
The Victorian era evoked a light version of this and the individualistic approach to life made it so that men in despair found homes in ideologies. Nowadays this is pronounced much more extreme and we'll have to see how it ends.

I'm so sorry that your brother had to endure these kinds of allegations, I know of 1 case in my former friend circle which also resulted in the person being ostracized, even though there were witnesses who stood up for them.

We live in a time and age where relationships aren't meant to last, divorce rates are soaring and most relationships don't get past the 2 year mark because everyone nowadays would rather search for something new instead of trying to work things out. Appearances also don't matter nearly as much as one is lead to believe. I'm by no means attractive, hell I consider myself ugly in a sense that my only strength lies in my personality and Humor, but as long as people carry themselves somewhat adequate there is a chance that you'll find someone. The biggest hurdle is approaching someone and learning to deal with rejection.

In general men have never had it that bad in written history. What worked for centuries suddenly no longer has value, and they are left floundering into nothingness as they not only have to compete with themselves, but the whole world just to find any form of satisfaction, belonging and happiness. Men have failed men, because the progress we made and are still making is very important, but nobody ever thought about what this entails for society as a whole

 

[SexyIncél]

My late brother showed me how it was, girls in his classes (he was studying at the Faculty of Psychology) told him to open up and not keep his feelings to himself... and the moment he showed vulnerability they made a false rape accusation that ruined his life. And I know for a fact it was false because he was with me and three other people at the time when the girl said that he had assaulted her.

May I ask for details about what happened? What vulnerability he disclosed, and their motivation in doing so?

Of course, please feel free to leave out any details you wish!

This isn't for idle curiosity — I intervene in rape cases, and the trickiest part is acting properly even if they're lying. (I often can't tell if I'm in the timeline where they're lying. So I have to keep reducing its probability, with each action. Acting properly, even if I'm in that timeline)

 

[druggedonsurvival]

Thats why the thought of century long suppression of women is a new one. Ancient civilizations always put women above men because of those reasons. While they didn't have the same rights and opportunities they were forced into a mold that allowed society to survive. I'd even argue that being a homemaker is a more taxing job than hard labor. Women were the cogs that kept the machine running and I am so happy that equality has stepped up a notch and tried to even out differences.

However we ended up with a system that ensures competition in every aspect of life, even courtship. This results in tons of men and women being unable to compete. Everyone who tried online dating like Tinder knows what I mean. We have rising numbers of men who never engaged in relationships or sexual activity that have never been seen before, and in essence have a young male population with no perspective, hope for the future or will to be alive. They are bored, frustrated and lonely which makes them vulnerable to certain political demographics and ideologies. The modern left hates itself, but the modern right hates everyone but their own. If you give impressionable people a sense of belonging when everyone else rejects them they will take it without a doubt.
The Victorian era evoked a light version of this and the individualistic approach to life made it so that men in despair found homes in ideologies. Nowadays this is pronounced much more extreme and we'll have to see how it ends.

I'm so sorry that your brother had to endure these kinds of allegations, I know of 1 case in my former friend circle which also resulted in the person being ostracized, even though there were witnesses who stood up for them.

We live in a time and age where relationships aren't meant to last, divorce rates are soaring and most relationships don't get past the 2 year mark because everyone nowadays would rather search for something new instead of trying to work things out. Appearances also don't matter nearly as much as one is lead to believe. I'm by no means attractive, hell I consider myself ugly in a sense that my only strength lies in my personality and Humor, but as long as people carry themselves somewhat adequate there is a chance that you'll find someone. The biggest hurdle is approaching someone and learning to deal with rejection.

In general men have never had it that bad in written history. What worked for centuries suddenly no longer has value, and they are left floundering into nothingness as they not only have to compete with themselves, but the whole world just to find any form of satisfaction, belonging and happiness. Men have failed men, because the progress we made and are still making is very important, but nobody ever thought about what this entails for society as a whole

What an insightful analysis, and I'm grateful that you posted it. Your response has helped me to make sense of my own situation somewhat.

 

[leavingthesoultrap]

In my country (country in EU) women earn 20 percent less than men for the same job. Tampons are taxed the same as luxury products while male razors have the lowest one. Serious Diseases that are exclusive or almost exclusive to women are underresearched and downplayed. Ie: Endometriosis, fibromyalgia, pcos, fibroids... Women are way less likely to receive correct diagnosis for autism or even heart attack because the symptoms present themselves differently than in men.
If you are a woman you are always being judged by your looks first. Not wearing makeup is "unprofessional". And I am not even getting to the safety problems, like the danger of being raped.
Just because women are less likely to CTB doesn't mean they are happy. Women are more often caregivers so they don't get to quit.

 

[astonishedturnip]

I agree that I've seen women say that it's a "red flag" when a guy has any kind of disorder yet believe it's a red flag if you DON'T accept their BPD, HPD, whatever, and that sucks. But I'm also on a lot of male-dominated forums and it's also usually men thumbing their nose at other men with bad mental health, saying that therapy, psychology, antidepressants, neuroplasticity, etc. are "soft science, femoid bullshit" and that all you need for good mental health is to just lift, read stoicism, and stop watching porn you loser lololol.

This forum has users from all over the world so it's not really a fair question as someone's perspective from Canada is going to be different than someone from Pakistan. I was born and raised in the USA so I was luckier than someone sold into a marriage at age 11 or whatever. But as a girl it did suck to be assaulted with images of "the perfect body" since I was an adolescent, like watching Britney Spears get called obese for being a perfectly normal weight; having it impressed upon me that my value was based entirely in my youth, beauty, and politeness; getting told that I needed to get a great career for feminism's sake but that I'd also regret it if I didn't get married and have kids ASAP; having my head slammed into a brick wall and getting spat on after I turned down a male friend, only for our male mutual friends to rally around him and pat him on the back for "getting his heart broken" after he "put himself out there"; being told by my own uncle that I (as a 15-year-old) should have just sent nudes to the boyfriend demanding them, instead of breaking up with him, because "guys can't be expected to live without that stuff" even though we only dated for 2 weeks; essentially being groomed to be a future husband's bangmaid and substitute mommy because it's hard as fuck to find a guy who can take care of himself; watching men salivate in the comment section whenever a girl gets punched out by a guy twice her size and wishing they could do the same.

Is any of this worse than dying in a WW1 trench or getting crushed in a lathe machine? Of course not. But it's a bit silly for a fellow American to bring this up to me when so often the one arguing with me has no dangers present in his life beyond getting back cramps from a non-ergonomic desk chair. And I'm not calling out men as the antagonists in those experiences all the time, I was bullied by both boys and girls and girls were always far more evil and cunning in their bullying.

Unfortunately most of society walks into such conversations with their answer already made up in their minds and the online gender war rages on without much help.

 

[sserafim]

In my country (country in EU) women earn 20 percent less than men for the same job. Tampons are taxed the same as luxury products while male razors have the lowest one. Serious Diseases that are exclusive or almost exclusive to women are underresearched and downplayed. Ie: Endometriosis, fibromyalgia, pcos, fibroids... Women are way less likely to receive correct diagnosis for autism or even heart attack because the symptoms present themselves differently than in men.
If you are a woman you are always being judged by your looks first. Not wearing makeup is "unprofessional". And I am not even getting to the safety problems, like the danger of being raped.
Just because women are less likely to CTB doesn't mean they are happy. Women are more often caregivers so they don't get to quit.

It's like that everywhere in the world. Women are systematically oppressed. I hate how there's a gender pay gap, but there is. It's not fair that women make less than men for the same exact job. We're also viewed as sexual objects for our beauty, instead of being seen as people. Women of the world need to rise up and fight against our oppressors. Down with the patriarchy!

 

[Ambivalent1]

It's like that everywhere in the world. Women are systematically oppressed. I hate how there's a gender pay gap, but there is. It's not fair that women make less than men for the same exact job. We're also viewed as sexual objects for our beauty, instead of being seen as people. Women of the world need to rise up and fight their oppressors.

Talk of revolution

 

[sserafim]

Talk of revolution

Lol I should have posted this on International Women's Day. Women of the world unite!

 

[Stoked]

it's harder in the sense than men are expected to be strong and keep everything in. women can have extremely close platonic relationships/friendships with both men and women, where it's much more likely for women to be able to lean on each other and share intimate details. ofc, this also depends on your circles.

but the same cannot be said for men. true, we can have best mates and such, but it's not the same. and because it is acknowledged that women have been marginalized for centuries, even til now, it's easier for women to open up and seek help and for others to empathise with them. but for men, people just seem to think that men are bulletproof and have no emotions/should not have any emotions other than aggression and anger.

closest things we've got might be having a partner/wife/gf and kids, families (if you're close to them) and if they're supportive/healthy relationships, but also they rely on us. so it's much harder to sort this shit out.

imagine for single men who don't have anyone, or have come from abusive households, or been bullied in school, and never recovered. and the circle continued to them being avoidant to everyone. some actually became basement dwellers and never got over things and never had any meaningful connections. what would such long term alienation, isolation and loneliness cause to someone?

even men who are highly successful with happy family and stuff, the weight of the world is on their shoulders and they can't show any weakness hence why they just "surprisingly" killed themselves. dunno, it's a tricky world to navigate. but tbh, more people would stand up for women than men. and no, this is not a competition, just a sad state of affairs in this highly gendered world, from what I've observed

 

[WretchedDreams]

May I ask for details about what happened? What vulnerability he disclosed, and their motivation in doing so?

Of course, please feel free to leave out any details you wish!

This isn't for idle curiosity — I intervene in rape cases, and the trickiest part is acting properly even if they're lying. (I often can't tell if I'm in the timeline where they're lying. So I have to keep reducing its probability, with each action. Acting properly, even if I'm in that timeline)

Of course, although I beg your pardon for the lack of detail, it is not an issue that I like to discuss.

My brother was schizophrenic and did not receive any treatment (in my country the poor health system is not equipped to deal with mental problems), and this caused him as many problems as one can imagine. He had a girlfriend (from the same university) at the time who he was apparently going to marry. However, they had problems because of his behavior. Well, on the recommendation of his colleagues (the psych career is made up of 95% women), he decided to expose his problem with the idea that this way his actions would be better understood and perhaps he would receive more support.

That fact mada easy for her to cheat on him with another person and when she was discovered, she invented that everything was the cause of his illness, that he had imagined it all out. After many a problems, they got splitt and such. After that he became even more paranoid, aggressive and extreme in his way of thinking, but always keeping everything strictly in the field of ideas. But as is usual in this supposed "patriarchal society" a man who stops being useful, kind and willing to women becomes dangerous. And in some fucked up way that translated into pouring their spite on him. The same colleagues that suggested being more open helped put together the entire accusation with the help of the ex, who knew exactly what she doing in order to obtain financial benefit.

It was a disgusting situation. Luckily, as I said, when the person made the accusation about him, in the statemen, she said it happened at the time of day when the campus is basically deserted, he was with me and some acquaintances. We act as witnesses. Also, there were cameras that supported his innocence, but like everything now it is built to attack the man for alleged "historical oppression" with the evidence and everything was kept locked up throughout the process. We formally filed a countersuit for slander and the girls backed down. When they took my brother out, the school did not want to take him back even though his innocence was proven.

And he was practically treated like a rapist until the end just because of a bitch's word. Somehow women always are the victims.

 

[doomer843]

Trying to definitively say one person suffers more than another is pointless and harmful, people of any gender can suffer.

 

[sserafim]

You're right. The male sex is considered disposable for pure stochastic reasons: sperm is a cheap cell while the egg is a lot more expensive. A country at war can afford to lose all the men as long as only one survives. If that country loses most of its women then it's basically on borrowed time. Just an example of the disposable view on the male sex.

The part of finding a partner is x100 more difficult for men, that's true. And since pairing is a biological-evolutionary-social pressure, it becomes the purest source of hopelessness.

One man can impregnate as many women he wants though. He can spread his seed far and wide. How is that "disposable"?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I think men simply aren't as inclined to seek mental health services. Most of us would rather just do it ourselves. It is only recently that some parts of society are pushing men to seek therapy more but the problem is the field was already tailored to help the women who were seeking it in the past century rather than most modern humans. Most therapists simply aren't trained to deal with male clients and the ones that are still don't exactly know what to do with the more fringe cases.