Is it wise to lie to your therapist from the outset?

[WaterUnder]

Am I currently suicidal? No. Nope. Not at all.

It occurred to me to be honest, because I am usually (or was) an honest person. I thought briefly of being truthful and explaining where I am and how I got here. But in remembering my previous experience with what audaciously claims to be "getting help" in which I was psychologically abused while simultaneously being forced to take maximum doses of Effexor (without regard to side effects) which stripped me of my persona and transformed me into a humanoid automaton in a cloud of stupor.

Gotta love "modern psychiatry". If you're resistant to being put into a forced dissociative fugue, the psych ward I was in still resorts to ECT:
Image from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

And since I'm on a rant now, I'll add that whether you admit yourself or have been sectioned, the psychiatrist(s) in charge of the ward patient has the right to hold you against your will, which is usually until they've exhausted your health insurance benefit. So the "pyschiatric patient" that they "helped" is left in a state in which they cannot drive or work and have the added stress of an enormous medical bill if you're in the States), adding further stress, distress, and duress.

So, as I sat there contemplating the therapist's inquiries regarding suicide, along with all of these thoughts, I recalled the paperwork I'd just signed which acknowledged their right to have me "sectioned" and weighed that against my current need, my past experiences of medical abuse, the present likelihood of actually being helped. . .I hesitated.

"Have I ever been suicidal in the past? Uh. . . . Well. . . ."

The therapist was presented a previous attempt in a succinct, plausible little story of a one time crisis encapsulated in an impenetrable safe deposit box marked "ancient history" to which no one has the key.

No. Nope. Not currently suicidal at all. Wouldn't think of it.

 

[Onomotopoeia]

Therapy needs to come a long way past the archaic mandated holds the states has. I have no data to support this and never even looked it up but if i took a guess mandatory psych holds are designed as a money maker and not about the patient at all.

No, you should never, ever be honest with a therapist/DR/Co Worker/ about suicide. Acute care is not a treatment and if it is ever effective, it is only when it's someone in a passing crisis, and even then i have doubts.

When someone asks if you are suicidal you say you where when younger but now your just sad/lonely/anxious/angry/ insert almost any other culturally supported emotion that is not suicide.

Whatever your reasons for being suicidal you CAN talk about them safely with a therapist without saying you are suicidal. They can then in turn actually treat you for your issues just leave out the word suicide. Literally the only difference is there will be no psych hold.

So, be honest about everything else. Unless you also want to murder other people it's a safe discussion and you are being honest if not withholding a single word or any series of words that might bring up the dreaded "suicide talk"

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

I've read a lot of posts on here where people look for ways to lie or come up with excuses to hide they're suicidal. They're afraid of being "locked up" in a psych ward or what not. I actually don't understand this. I didn't do that. I don't bother correcting anyone directly. They're going to do whatever they want. As for me though... I've straight up told people I was suicidal. I even did what was about a 3 day stint in a psych ward after openly admitting I was suicidal. Was it that bad? No. It was honestly kind of useless though. I don't think you have to go around and tell everyone you're suicidal. You don't even need to tell your therapist. Talk about it on here or something. But I do think there is something wrong with feeling it's ever necessary to lie. I think it's important to be honest. The reason I think it's foolish to lie is because if you're dishonest with others then it's likely you'll be dishonest with yourself. It doesn't matter how smart you think you are. The best way to handle almost anything is by directly approaching the truth in a simple and honest manner.

 

[TAW122]

I would say be careful with what you say, but if it is a direct question like "Are you currently suicidal" then you have to either answer "no" (which may/not be true) otherwise you may have to contract to a safety plan and have to work super hard to convince the therapist that you will not harm/kill yourself. Then the worst case that could also happen is getting a psych hold against your will. I'm more in the lines of any involuntary detainment of said person is generally ineffective and oftenly does more harm than good. In rare instances, it has helped some people who are just temporarily going through a crisis (which will pass in a day or two or once again, short term). However, I will say most times if help is forced on people rather than them willing wanting it, then help would be very ineffective at best, damaging at worst.

@Onomotopoeia I agree with you and when I was talking to therapists and being asked probing questions, I often downplay or just outright deny having suicidal thoughts. Some questions that are more direct focused on the present which during those times I didn't have any suicidal thoughts so I was honest in saying "no", especially in those instances.

@EddieAllenPoe While I don't fully agree with you of the notion that there is never a time where you have to 'lie'. Sometimes in life when there are no other better options and the truth can result in more consequences for you or suffering, then yes, in such specific situations it can be better to lie. Anyways, I think you are aiming to try to tell the truth but also at the same time not volunteer too much information, especially information that may result in a psych hold.

 

[WaterUnder]

@Onomotopoeia -- I think it depends on the therapist, really. While honesty is the ideal, TRUST is what first drives therapy. Trust in the therapist's insight and ability and trust in their emotional intelligence and professionalism.

@EddieAllenPoe -- I used to be a purist, requiring honesty of myself at all costs , but here I feel a more utilitarian approach is required because the questions were very direct. Had I been honest it could have cost me my livelihood, my future solvency, the possibility of ever trusting a professional to seek help again, etc. By lying, I am giving myself the opportunity to evaluate the therapist.

Were I still a purist, I would not be able to avail myself of assistance.

@thrw_a_way1221221 You said, "I will say most times if help is forced on people rather than them willing wanting it, then help would be very ineffective at best, damaging at worst." I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's sad that so many of us feel we need to protect ourselves from medical and mental health "professionals".

Undoubtedly, there are some wonderful therapists and doctors out there. I convinced myself to try by reflecting on my past experiences and thinking, "You've seen the worst of therapy, you're overdue to see the better side of it!". Fingers crossed

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

I love how there are qualifications being made for how occasionally lying can be rationalized. I don't really consider myself a "purist". It's not like you can categorize truth. Are you being truthful or aren't you? It really is that simple. Its not like I haven't thought about these things before. If I were hiding a Jew in my house during WW2, then should I be expected to tell the Nazis where? No. I think what's being overlooked is that you have the power to withhold the truth. You can even say things that are true that evade a question. I wouldn't lie though. Lying has the power to distort your own perception. I'll stand by this as being the best policy because I've seen how the human mind actually works. Some people have made this so complex they don't even know when they're lying. A really good book I recommend for anyone that cares is "Lying" by Sam Harris. He makes the bold claim you should never lie. It only seems bold or naive if you're afraid of doing it. It's a good read.

 

[WaterUnder]

I love how there are qualifications being made for how occasionally lying can be rationalized. I don't really consider myself a "purist". It's not like you can categorize truth. Are you being truthful or aren't you? It really is that simple. Its not like I haven't thought about these things before. If I were hiding a Jew in my house during WW2, then should I be expected to tell the Nazis where? No. I think what's being overlooked is that you have the power to withhold the truth. You can even say things that are true that evade a question. I wouldn't lie though. Lying has the power to distort your own perception. I'll stand by this as being the best policy because I've seen how the human mind actually works. Some people have made this so complex they don't even know when they're lying. A really good book I recommend for anyone that cares is "Lying" by Sam Harris. He makes the bold claim you should never lie. It only seems bold or naive if you're afraid of doing it. It's a good read.

It was impossible to evade the question.
Obviously, lying was uncomfortable for me, which is why I made this post. And my justification isn't to anyone other than to myself.
For someone like me, taking the initiative to advocate for myself is enormous.
As for the Nazis, I don't think you'd have been able to evade the question. In that circumstance, and in a loose sense my own, when safeguarding a life, I would feel the moral imperative would be to lie in that instance.
I do not believe in lying in other circumstances, such as if one or one's spouse were to have an affair. Lying about that would be unwarranted and harmful.

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

I think fear is the only reason for why you would lie. It's actually for that reason I think you shouldn't. You'll be better for it in the process. I'm not saying its easy. It's definitely not true you would have to lie to a Nazi. That's not a moral imperative saying that. That's fear.

 

[WaterUnder]

I think fear is the only reason for why you would lie. It's actually for that reason I think you shouldn't. You'll be better for it in the process. I'm not saying its easy. It's definitely not true you would have to lie to a Nazi. That's not a moral imperative saying that. That's fear.

Not really. Fear is an aspect, but there is a far greater practical aspect to it. I take no offense to your presuming to know me well enough to assert what I'm feeling or assume my motives. I disagree with you.

That I have made a reach to life is a really big deal. Compassion and forgiveness are equal to truth in the human experience spectrum and save more lives.

As for your assertion regarding fascists at your door: I doubt that you will ever be tested in that regard.

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

I never said you had to agree with me. I actually assume most won't. You're free to experiment with this yourself. I just haven't found lying to be useful.

 

[WaterUnder]

I never said you had to agree with me. I actually assume most won't. You're free to experiment with this yourself. I just haven't found lying to be useful.

. . . yet.
;)

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

I doubt it. I actually came to this conclusion by doing the opposite. You don't have to believe me though. Some things you can only learn from hindsight. There is a reason being truthful is considered a virtue. It isn't because everyone is doing it.

 

[WaterUnder]

I doubt it. I actually came to this conclusion by doing the opposite. You don't have to believe me though. Some things you can only learn from hindsight. There is a reason being truthful is considered a virtue. It isn't because everyone is doing it.

You remind me so much of me in my younger days. Yet here we both are.
How long have you been suicidal, EAP?

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

You remind me so much of me in my younger days. Yet here we both are.
How long have you been suicidal, EAP?

It does? That's funny. You barely know me.

 

[WaterUnder]

It does? That's funny. You barely know me.

Love it!! :D
Thanks for the discourse and the smile. I really enjoyed it!

 

[Onomotopoeia]

@WaterUnder

Yes, trust is important especially in therapy. so you should be honest, with this one exception. The thing is no matter how good or bad your therapist is they have a legal and moral imperative to have you commited if they think you have a plan and intend to act on it. If that wasnt enough if you then did CTB and they never commited you they lose their job/license so they always err on the side of caution and there are very practical reasons to avoid a 40k state mandated hospital stay.

There are some truly vague guidelines and in these instances there is not a benefit in being entirely forthcoming and lots of negatives.

EAPs notion that truth above all is an attempt to encode some type of honor in honesty all the time but I can think of a million cases where a lie has more benefits than penalties and this very scenario is an excellent case for that.

Truth in this matter: you get locked up at minimum for 3 days, max probably 9 or 10 days. either way 20-40k easily (my 8 day stay was 38+)

If there is an upside here i honestly dont see one, unless you think a week of boredom might actually help you and/or you are actually in some pending crisis that may pass.

Lie: life goes on, you get treated for whatever you want and keep your freedom.

Dont get me wrong there are millions of reasons why generally being honest is in fact the way to go, but I think its really naive to think its always the best policy. The truth can often be outright cruel to those listening and there really is no excuse for telling your wife those pants make her look fat. There are much kinder ways to address weight issues if it needs to be addressed.

 

[WaterUnder]

@Onomotopoeia My last stay would have been $40k, but the insurance I had at the time covered everything except the ambulance and the co-pays for the follow up psych & therapy visits. I was very fortunate.

I won't tell the therapist this, but all I'm looking for is help getting through this next phase of my life dealing with my mother's end of life issues and my spouse's declining health. Getting committed would be devastating to all of us.

But yes, you are correct. There is a moral imperative for mental health providers to have a suicidal patient committed, understandably so.

And I also agree that kindness is compelling, although I have to admit, I'd like to know that the pants aren't flattering before I walk out the door. Thankfully I can ascertain those things for myself.

 

[TAW122]

Undoubtedly, there are some wonderful therapists and doctors out there. I convinced myself to try by reflecting on my past experiences and thinking, "You've seen the worst of therapy, you're overdue to see the better side of it!". Fingers crossed

While that "may" be true, it is simply too time consuming, too costly, and the risks are too great for that to be worthwhile, sometimes, it may even take a lifetime to find that unicorn of a therapist/doctor. Also, keep in mind that most people here have already decided that life isn't worth living, whether it is existential crisis, society and the world being shit and unable to effectively change it, and/or situations that aren't likely to improve, personal reasons, etc. so waiting or continually searching for that 'perfect' one is just not an option. I know that if I want to go, I certainly don't want help or to get better, just to end the suffering.

 

[WaterUnder]

While that "may" be true, it is simply too time consuming, too costly, and the risks are too great for that to be worthwhile, sometimes, it may even take a lifetime to find that unicorn of a therapist/doctor. Also, keep in mind that most people here have already decided that life isn't worth living, whether it is existential crisis, society and the world being shit and unable to effectively change it, and/or situations that aren't likely to improve, personal reasons, etc. so waiting or continually searching for that 'perfect' one is just not an option. I know that if I want to go, I certainly don't want help or to get better, just to end the suffering.

Yes. I agree.
For me, looking back on my life, I believe it could have been better had I advocated for myself. I don't want to use justifications for not seeking help, even though they are valid: cost prohibitive, time consuming, bad therapists/advice. But, I do know quite a few people who were helped by talk therapy, and while I think the unicorn reference is a bit overstated, I agree that finding the right therapist for oneself can be rather arduous.
Again, not for anyone else but for me, I feel that therapy is the right choice for this time in my life as I have two elderly people for whom I am responsible.

 

[TAW122]

Again, not for anyone else but for me, I feel that therapy is the right choice for this time in my life as I have two elderly people for whom I am responsible.

I respect that. Also since everyone's lives are circumstances are different, not one (solution) size fits all (problems). Anyways, I hope things continue to go well for you.