Discussion Is it okay to ctb for mental issues?

[FadingSunshine]

To preface this, I'm far from a pro-lifer. I've just been thinking about this a lot from various discussions I've had on this site and my own situation.
I totally get ctbing because of a physical condition that won't get better or specific events that changed your life forever, but I'm on the fence about ctbing because of a mental condition (ie anxiety, depression, maybe even loneliness?) I think especially if you're young you can't predict if your condition will ever improve. Where do you draw the line between crbing and recovery for mental illness? For me, I think I would need at least a couple years within the illness, then trying everything else (meds, therapy, outpatient, inpatient) and if that doesn't work then I would ctb.
Some background on me, social anxiety for 4 years, completely fucked up my life. Until recently the urge to kill myself was hella strong, but now that I've begun accepting myself I'm glad that I didn't kill myself. 18 years old.

 

[Death is my goal]

pain is pain, suffering is suffering, whether it's physical or mental doesn't matter.

 

[FadingSunshine]

pain is pain, suffering is suffering, whether it's physical or mental doesn't matter.

But what I'm hung up on is how do you know it won't improve? How do you know it isn't temporary suffering?

 

[Death is my goal]

just because you had mental problems then got better it doesn't mean that it would be the case for everyone else

 

[FadingSunshine]

On the other hand, how far are you willing to go for recovery? I think if I had to go through those 4 years again I might choose ctb, even if I do come out the other side after those 4 years.

 

[Death is my goal]

But what I'm hung up on is how do you know it won't improve? How do you know it isn't temporary suffering?

in my case, i don't need to know. i'd still rather ctb even if things get better

 

[Slark]

I very much agree with you. Sometimes we feel lost in situations and we don't see a way out at the moment, but analyzing it from the outside and more calmly, we find solutions (I'm not judging those who kill themselves for any reason or situation, because only the person who is experiencing the situation knows about their pain and we can be blinded by despair). In my case, I've tried everything to improve and unfortunately failed. Having really tried everything in my power and failed makes me lighter to make my CTB decision

 

[FadingSunshine]

just because you had mental problems then got better it doesn't mean that it would be the case for everyone else

Don't worry I'm not saying that, but where would you draw the line of recoverable or ctb? Like a week of feeling bad is probably recoverable, months is iffy, years maybe on the side of ctb? Btw I did not mean to downplay your or other peoples suffering, this is just a question I've been thinking to myself and I wanted to hear others opinions

 

[Slark]

Don't worry I'm not saying that, but where would you draw the line of recoverable or ctb? Like a week of feeling bad is probably recoverable, months is iffy, years maybe on the side of ctb? Btw I did not mean to downplay your or other peoples suffering, this is just a question I've been thinking to myself and I wanted to hear others opinions

this line does not exist. Only each person knows the level of pain they can endure, so we should avoid judging (I'm not saying you do that). My condition, for example, is not going to kill me quickly, but I have simply been living with it for two years and I have no prognosis of improvement, in addition to having already tried all available treatments. Could I continue to suffer and one day magically get my condition better? Yes. However, I can't stand the suffering anymore

 

[FadingSunshine]

this line does not exist. Only each person knows the level of pain they can endure, so we should avoid judging (I'm not saying you do that). My condition, for example, is not going to kill me quickly, but I have simply been living with it for two years and I have no prognosis of improvement, in addition to having already tried all available treatments. Could I continue to suffer and one day magically get my condition better? Yes. However, I can't stand the suffering anymore

I agree, I think the idea of getting better doesn't justify longer suffering. For some reason I didn't think about each person having a different breaking point, thanks for bringing that up. I guess I'm just worried about impulsive suicide, but as long as they are well informed, and have put good thought into it it's always justifiable.

 

[Holu]

Mental issue, physical issue, or neither. Doesn't matter to me. Suffering is suffering, and if you feel that the suffering is unlikely to improve then that in itself is enough justification for choosing to be at peace.

And yes as I'm sure many have and will say, we all have the right to die.

 

[doneforlife]

This question comes with a lot of ifs and buts..

 

[Slark]

I agree, I think the idea of getting better doesn't justify longer suffering. For some reason I didn't think about each person having a different breaking point, thanks for bringing that up. I guess I'm just worried about impulsive suicide, but as long as they are well informed, and have put good thought into it it's always justifiable.

I understand your concern and have thought about it too. It would be something like: the person broke up with a relationship, got extremely upset about it and decided to die on the same day of the breakup, then she just goes to the hospital, asks to die and they give her the medicine to die. Should it be this way? I don't think so. I'm all in favor of the right to die when you're in pain, but we shouldn't trivialize things

 

[jbear824]

People with mental health issues shouldn't be forced to suffer just for a CHANCE at getting better. And exactly how long should someone suffer in pursuit of that chance before they are "allowed" to end it?

Impulsive suicide should be discouraged, I agree with that. But mental health problems are just as valid a reason to ctb as physical suffering is. Mental pain is not excusable just because it's usually invisible. also, mental health issues more often than not lead to physical suffering as well. So the whole mental vs. Physical argument goes right out the window.

 

[FadingSunshine]

also, mental health issues more often than not lead to physical suffering as well.

That's a great angle that I hadn't thought about. I think the answer to my question is that it differs from person to person, people have different breaking points. If someone has thoroughly thought through their decision and consudered other options, and ctb still seems like the best option, then it's justifiable, no matter if it's physical or mental suffering.

 

[doneforlife]

That's a great angle that I hadn't thought about. I think the answer to my question is that it differs from person to person, people have different breaking points. If someone has thoroughly thought through their decision and consudered other options, and ctb still seems like the best option, then it's justifiable, no matter if it's physical or mental suffering.

Right. It's on a case by case basis. Needless to say people suffering from mental conditions are most of the time outcasted by society, illtreated and bullied , and "real" help is never received. They have to compete with "normal" people for the same resources..be it be job , finding a partner etc .Saying mentally ill people donot stand a chance for VAD is a discrimination. It's like saying your pain is not "actual" pain...you just have to " get over it".

 

[Forever Sleep]

In an ideal world- if assisted suicide were legalised for adults, I think there ought to be an assessment process and a waiting period (maybe 6 months.) I think people suffering with mental illnesses like depression should maybe be asked whether they think their thinking has become skewed. And- do they want to try a programe of therapy etc. BUT- I don't think anyone should be forced into it. I don't think the offer of assisted suicide should be conditional on how much treatment a person has gone through.

Because- where is the end to it? I've read posts on here where psychiatrists have told their patients they should stick around because treatments are being discovered all the time. Imagine a doctor saying that to someone with cancer! Well- someone's bound to come up with a cure some day... Stop whining about the pain you're in and try and be more positive.

I just think- because mental illness isn't seen or very well measured- from what I can see. Plus, it's not exactly fatal- there does seem to be more pressure for people to just have to put up with it while various therapists and psychiatrists experiment on them with different drugs and treatments. Some of which actually make things worse for them! There are examples of that here.

Where does autonomy come into it? Are we REALLY saying that all people with mental illness don't have the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves? Again- I'm not against a supportive discussion where it's proposed that there MIGHT be things that can help them. BUT certainly not- you need to see X amount of 'specialists' and try X amount of drugs and they all need to agree that you're beyond helping before you can be considered for assisted suicide.

If we are saying that people with mental illness ARE that incapable of making decisions then- we should all be on benefits. Why should I be expected to make responsible decisions that affect others in a job if I supposedly can't make decisions for myself? Some people with depression and other mental illnesses have DIRECT control over other people's lives- if they are doctors, police officers, train drivers etc. If it screws up with our logic that much- we shouldn't be doing those jobs. I think it's something like 1 in 4 people will suffer with a mental illness at some point. Do our governments want to put a quarter of the population on benefits? No? Then- agree that we have enough autonomy to make reasoned decisions for ourselves.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Whatever you decide is your own decision in any case. Whether you want to go the way and try recovery or sth else you can always CTB at any time when you are ready and prepared for it. It depends on how much personal agony and suffering you're ready to endure. CTB should always be the last option one should take. Death is the only relief from all suffering in this world and then there is no way back.

Whichever way you gonna take, I wish you all the best for your future.

 

[FadingSunshine]

In an ideal world- if assisted suicide were legalised for adults, I think there ought to be an assessment process and a waiting period (maybe 6 months.) I think people suffering with mental illnesses like depression should maybe be asked whether they think their thinking has become skewed. And- do they want to try a programe of therapy etc. BUT- I don't think anyone should be forced into it. I don't think the offer of assisted suicide should be conditional on how much treatment a person has gone through.

Because- where is the end to it? I've read posts on here where psychiatrists have told their patients they should stick around because treatments are being discovered all the time. Imagine a doctor saying that to someone with cancer! Well- someone's bound to come up with a cure some day... Stop whining about the pain you're in and try and be more positive.

I just think- because mental illness isn't seen or very well measured- from what I can see. Plus, it's not exactly fatal- there does seem to be more pressure for people to just have to put up with it while various therapists and psychiatrists experiment on them with different drugs and treatments. Some of which actually make things worse for them! There are examples of that here.

Where does autonomy come into it? Are we REALLY saying that all people with mental illness don't have the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves? Again- I'm not against a supportive discussion where it's proposed that there MIGHT be things that can help them. BUT certainly not- you need to see X amount of 'specialists' and try X amount of drugs and they all need to agree that you're beyond helping before you can be considered for assisted suicide.

If we are saying that people with mental illness ARE that incapable of making decisions then- we should all be on benefits. Why should I be expected to make responsible decisions that affect others in a job if I supposedly can't make decisions for myself? Some people with depression and other mental illnesses have DIRECT control over other people's lives- if they are doctors, police officers, train drivers etc. If it screws up with our logic that much- we shouldn't be doing those jobs. I think it's something like 1 in 4 people will suffer with a mental illness at some point. Do our governments want to put a quarter of the population on benefits? No? Then- agree that we have enough autonomy to make reasoned decisions for ourselves.

Very good points and very well worded. I really like your point about how depressed and similarly mentally ill people are seen as incapable of making decisions on them when they are allowed to have jobs that affect other people's lives. Offtopic, but you have a great thought process and great wording that I wish I had, you should take pride in it!

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Whatever you decide is your own decision in any case. Whether you want to go the way and try recovery or sth else you can always CTB at any time when you are ready and prepared for it. It depends on how much personal agony and suffering you're ready to endure. Any persoonal reason you may have to consider CTB is a legit reason. CTB should always be the last option one should take. Death is the only relief from all suffering in this world and then there is no way back.

Whichever way you gonna take, I wish you all the best for your future.

EDIT: Sorry for double post, somehow my browser didn't load the site correctly and I though my post was lost.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Very good points and very well worded. I really like your point about how depressed and similarly mentally ill people are seen as incapable of making decisions on them when they are allowed to have jobs that affect other people's lives. Offtopic, but you have a great thought process and great wording that I wish I had, you should take pride in it!

That's so kind of you to say- thank you. To be honest, I'm not in total disagreement with you that some people might respond well to treatment. I do definitely think people ought to be given the offer and told their options. It's just the current system I don't like. I don't like how much power doctors, psychiatrists etc. have over people. Not just with mental illness- with physical illness too. They aren't the ones suffering!

In fact- it's a conflict of interest in my view. Regular doctors shouldn't really be expected to make those decisions. They go against everything they stand for in a way. I think that should be down to a specialist team in the assisted suicide clinics who can thoroughly assess the person and work with them to work out their best option. If that means attempting recovery- THEN regular doctors and therapists etc. should get involved.

 

[Dead Already]

But what I'm hung up on is how do you know it won't improve? How do you know it isn't temporary suffering?

Started feeling this way at 8 hears old, 58 now.
Tried everything, listened to everyone, worked through so much pain for half a century, just fed money hard earned to Dr's, lawyers, the court system......all suffering every day believing others that there was a solution.
There is not, mentally ill people are just money makers for the greedy system, I've been a good slave, now it's time to finally be free.
CPTSD, Bi-polar 1, Severe Depression are just a few of my labels, you would only need to live in my head for an hour to know, "yes its ok".
I agree, TRY EVERYTHING THING ELSE FIRST, but don't buy for a second that it will get better because someone else says it will be, than sends you a bill or takes your freedom and gets paid for it.
At 18, you should explore the possibilities, live life to your own fullest extent, see the world for what it is, maybe there is a happy medium for you that you can live with.
By 25 if you have not found that, don't suffer and regret doing so in old age.
The mental is every bit as Harmful if not more than the physical.
There is no pill to take away the pain of bad mental health.
It just gets worse the way things currently stand.

 

[soonatpeace777888]

Mental issues are the #1 reason people CTB. Any reason is valid, it's your life.

 

[EndJstifiesTheMeans]

Is more worth for mental than physical reason in my opinion

 

[Hollowman]

Yes

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't really think it's up to us whether other people should ctb or not, that's up to the person who is trapped with themselves enduring their own existence, I don't get how suicide could ever not be okay as nobody is obligated to suffer for even a second longer than they wish to and other people shouldn't have to suffer just because some people love and value life, not everyone even wants to exist and not everyone values life.

And I don't understand views of suicide supposedly being "wrong" when nobody can be harmed by not-existing, all the suffering started when existence did and we are destined for nowhere but to die anyway.

Preferring the true peace of non-existence to existing in such a cruel world where there is unlimited potential to suffer endlessly will always be a valid way to feel. I will always prefer true peace to existence regardless of the circumstances, the right to die is a human right not something for other people to interfere in, respecting someone's wish to leave is compassionate.