Discussion Is God pro-death?

[noname223]

David Foster Wallace once alluded that. Here are some of my remarks on it. (However I think it was only thought-provoking of DFW and not his real opinion.)
Christianity portrays God as pro-life but at the same time as wise, all knowing and allmighty.

So why are every single day children dying let's say at the age of 5 and because of cancer? Why has God invented cancer? Why has he let Auschwitz happen? (theodicy question). Why is there the looked-in syndrome, why are there so many people in vegetative states suffering every single day not even able to express their pain? There is so much pain and suffering with no deeper meaning. Execpt you see cruelty as something preferable.

Why is torture, extreme agony and torment a major part of the daily lives of so many despite the fact they have made nothing wrong. Like many people from this forum. Why are the victims of abuse way worse off than the perpetrators usually. If God is the mastermind behind all of this he must be a real dumbass or at least he enjoys the torture of people who were abused as children, raped or bombed.

Why is there so much war? Where is God when all the Palestinians civilans are carpet bombed? Do they have the wrong religion and deserve it thus? If there really was justice do the people who experience severe torment should feel guilty about it? Well I felt guilty for my suicidal thoughts during my first major depression and being religious made everything worse for me. So I became atheist. But when Muslims have the wrong religion: Why were all the Jewish women slaughtered and raped till they were full of blood while being exposed to the whole world in livestreams.

God must be a pretty sick motherfucker if he lets shit like that happen. If the world was a video game it would be x-rated (for adults) and many people would call the developers pretty sick fuck ups for example inventing things like child trafficking and despicable websites on the internet. But this seems to nature. And we have accepted that fact. Most average people look away from fates that so many people in this forum have. They don't want to be exposed of anything that ruins their mood. When they are confronted with the brutish reality many of us face they are in denial because they don't want to question their idealistic world view instead looking at the world through rose-tinted glasses.

I am sick of it. What do you think?

 

[letsgetittogo]

Do you want my personal logical answer or the theological answer? One of my best friends has a strong background in theology and he has an answer to that question "according to the Bible"

 

[noname223]

You can give both answers.

 

[divinemistress36]

Religion is man made to help justify all the pain in the world

 

[Hotsackage]

Maybe we should consider the God of spinoza

 

[Worndown]

If you go that way, God created life and by default, death.
If you do not go that way, we live, we die.
Either way, life and death go together unchanged.

 

[noname223]

Maybe we should consider the God of spinoza

Bro I just wanted to agitate against religion with my polemic and their hypocrisy and then you come here with real facts. (irony) Please you can elaborate on it.

 

[Chinaski]

God is a prolifer and l can't wait to die of old age so l can look him in the face and annihilate him with Facts and also Logic.

 

[BlessedBeTheFlame]

If I was to give a theodicy, I'd take a judaist interpretation of the argument given in The Brother Karazamov (as inherently contradictory as that is). Evolution is entirely compatible with the Hebrew bible, as evidenced by the fact 77% of jews believe in evolution, in comparison to 72% of atheists. The percentages are higher for hindus and buddhists btw, but I like to focus on Judaism due to its proximity and to demonstrate that intelligent designs isn't inherent to abrahamic faiths. Now in this way, one could argue that evolution created all these flaws. It's a thing, that just exists, so it will eventually lead us down this path. The freedom eventually allowed to humans is painful, but preferable to a life of servitude but pure happiness. Eliezer Berkovits (jewish theologian) had a very similar response, arguing that humanities free will depended on god remaining hidden. It should be noted, that many jewish theologians completely reject the idea of genocide or inhumane treatment being attributable to a willful attempt to punish or to humanities sins, so I'd find the idea of god being pro-death to be quite strange. It wouldn't be a god doing these things, but humans doing these things. War is literally a thing we created.

If I was to give my own view, it's because religion is not real. God doesn't exist.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Just logically speaking, if you are the creator of an experiment and you get to design all that goes in to it, which I'm assuming God did, how can we not assume the following:

- God clearly wants to witness the effect: suffering, deprivation of basic urges and death has on mortal creatures. Personally, I can't figure out a nice or even moral reason to want to do that...

- God could have created the earth with equally beneficial relationships between all organisms- surely. So, why didn't they? Did they want to see competition, exploitation, predation- sentient creatures ripping each other to bits? Again, I can't figure out why you'd want to see that if you were peace loving.

- God set us up with basic animal urges- f*ck, eat, sleep and then told us that all three are sinful- lust, gluttony and sloth. So- does God want us to fail? That's the ultimate test isn't it? Deny all that you biologically are. All that I've biologically made you to be to prove your love to me. Or- I'll toss you into the fiery pits of hell for failing. Oh- and you have to adore me too. Like- really?

- Oh yeah and- I'm going to give you a brain that is capable of reasoning and questioning and coming to it's own conclusions. But you better well still obey me- even when you've realised that I may not even exist... or else. Like- surely obedience is what God prizes most highly but- how to make it that much harder for them? Make them doubt I exist by giving them intelligence but then tell them they need faith to overcome that. Like WHY? Why, why, why would you do that?!! Why would you set out to confuse a sentient being you are supposed to 'love'? It's like a parent having a child and then making it confused as to whether they were even that child's parent. Like- why would you do that?!!

If there is a God, I'm not sure they are pro-death. They seem to ignore all the people in desperate pain praying to them to die. My step Nan was very religious and she was always praying to die. But no- they have to linger on in pain. God has their eyes set on children today... I think God is pro-suffering- a sadist rather than pro-death. Pro-death people are usually merciful. Plus- obviously a narcissist. What 'normal' creature needs a fan club and punishes people who don't obey and worship them?

Honestly, I think we're so screwed if there is a God. I'm praying- well, not praying obviously but, hoping there isn't one.

 

[sserafim]

Honestly, all of the suffering in the world makes me doubt that there is a God. If there is one, he must be especially sadistic and psychopathic. If he exists, why doesn't he do anything about the suffering?

 

[TheFallen]

I reckon we all have free will down here on this rock. Almost all suffering today is man made. Maybe devine intervention isn't an easy task? to enter our material relm. God knows I hope if our souls come back around, I better not come back to this planet!

 

[Hotsackage]

Bro I just wanted to agitate against religion with my polemic and their hypocrisy and then you come here with real facts. (irony) Please you can elaborate on it.

Please go ahead and do that

 

[noname223]

Please go ahead and do that

No I don't really have in-depth knowledge on that topic. My intention was though provocation. Other people will have to contribute to theologic discussion. My comment was not meant to be mocking just a stupid joke. At the same time I also have my opinion on this topic. But for elaborating on that I needed way more time than I currently have this evening. Sorry if my comment sounded offensive to you.

 

[EmmaM]

Christianity shows God as pro-choice but also as vindictive. I think it depends on who is using it for them. The thing to remember is that God loves you regardless and there's always a way to redemption. I don't feel so strongly about this that I would preach it, but you can live a normal life and you will be given forgiveness despite your ultimate intention or what you choose to do. I'd prefer you not, but I understand feeling that way <3

 

[Hotsackage]

You're fine man. Have a good one
Religion is the devil. That's my answer

 

[letsgetittogo]

You can give both answers.

I'd like to preface this by saying that I come from a religious background, but no longer consider myself religious. I was raised in a non-denominational household but have since become agnostic. I am also deeply suicidal, so these thoughts aren't necessarily my own, but those found in the gospel. With that said, I don't want to come across as pro-life, just refer to some of the teachings I've stored, and those I've discussed with my friend a few minutes ago, who has a background in Theology.

The following are Non-Denominational Christian Ideals.

The thought of "Why would God allow this to happen?" probably comes to mind when thinking of genocide, war, and suffering when viewed from a religious lens. It's completely rational to think "If God is all powerful, why doesn't he make it all go away? If he's all powerful and loving, why does he allow suffering in the world?

The answer begins in the first book of the Old Testament. When God created the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve, he created the "perfect" world. There was no disease, mental illness, hunger, suffering, or pain. In the first chapter of Genesis, "[...] God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good [...] (Genesis 1:31 KJV).

Before proceeding, it's important to understand that the purpose of the Gospel is to strike a delicate balance between predetermination and free will. In theology, predetermination is an act of God, in which he foreordains every event throughout eternity. This means that he knows every outcome of every decision that will ever occur in human history. Everything, from a leaf falling from a tree to the path a raindrop takes while it falls on the ground, is destined to occur by God in the exact manner in which it occurred: The one who holds together the Universe (Colossians 1:17 KJV) has a plan and his plan is being accomplished.

This seems to contradict the concept of humanity's free will: If God has predetermined all things, then are humans just pawn pieces being moved by an uncaring God who wants to reach an endgame, without thinking of what he's doing to living, breathing creatures? In truth, this isn't what the Gospel teaches, since it often speaks about humanity's personal responsibilities. This is why the Gospel often speaks about accepting Jesus as your savior: That is a decision that must be made personally.

Free will is always limited by our personal circumstances and our nature, we are bound to our decisions, Christian or not, despite God's ability to know every eventuality. This is why Adam and Eve were able to commit the original sin and were cast out from the Garden of Eden: Because they had the right to choose. The "Fall of man", in which humanity succumbs to the temptations of Satan, is perhaps the most important part of the Old Testament. It is the point in which humanity chooses to allow evil into the world. This encompasses everything that is not perfect and wasn't created by God. This means that all suffering isn't of God, but a corruption of Satan, that HUMANITY, willingly allowed on the Earth.

Moving across the rest of the Old Testament, you see the consequences of this decision. Noah's ark, the tower of Babel, the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel, and the banishment of the Jews, are all a part of this Domino Effect. From a Christian perspective, this is the point in which humanity has been doomed and corrupted, until the birth of Jesus.

God's response to this corruption at the beginning of the New Testament was to continue to allow humanity to have free will, but to offer an alternative, by sending his only begotten son to die for humanity's sins. Prior to Jesus being born, humanity was essentially doomed: never allowed to go to heaven and never allowed to be as perfect as God intended. Jesus' existence is a testament to God's commitment to allowing humanity to choose its own destiny. At the moment of his son's death, he opened the gates of heaven and allowed "imperfect" humans to become perfect through the sacrifice of his messiah (John 10:9 KJV) and by seeking his mercy.

All of this to say, the Bible states that sin and suffering is a man-made invention, that wasn't intended by God. Humanity has to choose to be good and seek salvation in order to find it. If we were to all act "perfectly", as God intended, the suffering of the world wouldn't exist. This means that the complaints that we have about how "society is dystopian" and "healthcare is failing us" as well as "people are evil at heart" are all caused by our corruption when we were in the Garden of Evil.

God is allowing us to choose to be saved of not, so that when the rapture comes the Earth can be cleansed. Until then, he will respect our free will, and also respect humanity's decision to be corrupt.

This was all put into my own words. I'm not an expert and I'm sure I'm butchering a lot of what my friend said over the phone. I just wanted to provide the religious point of view, in my own way. If anyone has more information or wants to correct mistakes that I could've possibly made, I am welcome to it; I love learning new things. Want to reiterate that I am agnostic and deeply suicidal so, these aren't my personal beliefs, just wanted to answer OP's question from a Christian POV.

God has given each and every one of us free will, including the free will to CTB if you so choose to.

 

[Abyssal]

Maybe we should consider the God of spinoza

Remind me, was he the one who believed in an inhuman, almost all of nature sort of god? It's been a while and that's a really shitty summary but if he's who I think he is, I consider his beliefs rather likely given that a god does exist. That said I don't believe in god.

If such a god does exist I'm sure pro life and pro death would be meaningless to them or it. In fact I would imagine opinions are null and human constructions of the mind are void to any so called god. How could such a being be pro death?

 

[piryohae3]

God has a way higher kill count than the devil. He murdered the whole world just bc people pissed him off and he didn't kill just people, but every animal except for 2 of each. He's killed way more than he's saved/healed so I'd say he's a pro-death murderous asshole.