Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
About the title, there are already several people with whom I have spoken and sometimes we touch on political or social issues, I always express how important freedom of expression is for people and some respond that freedom of expression is overvalued.

What the hell is happening?
 
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: Luchs, TotallyIsolated, GentleJerk and 6 others
GenesAndEnvironment

GenesAndEnvironment

Autistic loser
Jan 26, 2021
5,739
What the hell is happening?
People's lives are too easy (and/or too hard), so words mean a lot to them. I'm no exception here, obviously :ahhha:. Still, I like the idea of people talking about things (including debates/conflicts) rather than just giving up on dialogue.

I'm with you on free speech, I (generally speaking) like it a lot.
 
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: Luchs, ColorlessTrees, Feeding Pigeons and 4 others
Sanva

Sanva

:/
Dec 10, 2021
261
freedom of speech is important, the problem is that people think it means they should be able to express racist/homophobic etc. opinions without facing any consequences whatsoever. if you state an opinion that goes against the rights of a certain group of people, expect to be challenged. people arguing against opinions you express openly is not censorship. i highly doubt that many people actually think freedom of expression is overvalued.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: avoid_slow_death, bleeeeeep, GentleJerk and 10 others
edu0z

edu0z

carried away by a moonlight shadow
Aug 25, 2021
552
Freedom of expression is allowed as long as you think like the majority... that's why I don't have social networks because I can't stand being judged because of my way of thinking... I guess it's not something from "society," but it's a value they instill in you in your home.
 
  • Like
Reactions: deleted, cyanol, Nolan96 and 1 other person
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
i highly doubt that many people actually think freedom of expression is overvalued.
I have already given up on society, it would not surprise me if people allowed a rich country like the USA to become pure and brutal authoritarianism, where all freedoms are non-existent, where each person is monitored 24 hours a day by of the government and where everyone is forced to worship a leader with a long mustache and dressed as a military man
 
  • Hugs
Reactions: Nolan96
edu0z

edu0z

carried away by a moonlight shadow
Aug 25, 2021
552
I have already given up on society, it would not surprise me if people allowed a rich country like the USA to become pure and brutal authoritarianism, where all freedoms are non-existent, where each person is monitored 24 hours a day by of the government and where everyone is forced to worship a leader with a long mustache and dressed as a military man
The United States is not Cuba.
 
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
The United States is not Cuba.
I know, but with the events that are happening there, I won't be surprised if the USA turns into a communist fascist dystopia
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hollowman and Fragile
Sanva

Sanva

:/
Dec 10, 2021
261
I have already given up on society, it would not surprise me if people allowed a rich country like the USA to become pure and brutal authoritarianism, where all freedoms are non-existent, where each person is monitored 24 hours a day by of the government and where everyone is forced to worship a leader with a long mustache and dressed as a military man
yep, people disagreeing with me is literally 1984
 
  • Like
Reactions: bleeeeeep, ColorlessTrees and WhiteRabbit
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
I think that it depends on the context.
Do we have misogynistic users? I would have to see for myself, lol, in my case many things can become misunderstood, there are many people who do not understand my position that I am anti-feminist and anti-misogynist at the same time
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sanva

Sanva

:/
Dec 10, 2021
261
there are many people who do not understand my position that I am anti-feminist and anti-misogynist at the same time
I'm one of them, please explain
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: 𖣴 nadia 𖣴 and whatevs
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
I'm one of them, please explain
Feminism has been used as a political weapon, in addition to being ineffective against real problems such as rape or mistreatment of women, instead it only serves to grant absurd powers to women, Dragon Ball was banned in Argentina at the request of feminists, the cancellation and forced implementation of this ideology, plus most feminists waste public funds to finance their movements, just look at the stupid laws that have been declared in Spain
Modern feminism directly attacks freedom of expression and is a form of authoritarianism
 
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: ColorlessTrees, cyanol, Nolan96 and 1 other person
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
Feminism has been used as a political weapon, in addition to being ineffective against real problems such as rape or mistreatment of women, instead it only serves to grant absurd powers to women, Dragon Ball was banned in Argentina at the request of feminists, the cancellation and forced implementation of this ideology, plus most feminists waste public funds to finance their movements, just look at the stupid laws that have been declared in Spain
Modern feminism directly attacks freedom of expression and is a form of authoritarianism
Good starting point. You need to refine this further if you are going to oppose feminist ideology, however.

"Progressive intellectuals" are certainly deranged but they are good at semantics and winning arguments with fallacies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ColorlessTrees, cyanol and Fragile
Sanva

Sanva

:/
Dec 10, 2021
261
Feminism has been used as a political weapon, in addition to being ineffective against real problems such as rape or mistreatment of women, instead it only serves to grant absurd powers to women, Dragon Ball was banned in Argentina at the request of feminists, the cancellation and forced implementation of this ideology, plus most feminists waste public funds to finance their movements, just look at the stupid laws that have been declared in Spain
Modern feminism directly attacks freedom of expression and is a form of authoritarianism
not going to start a lengthy discussion about this with you but please do your own research before you make such claims. Feminism has very much made more and more women feel able to speak out about their experiences with sexual assault/rape and stand up to harassment etc. Just because feminists did one thing you didn't like doesn't mean the entire movement is useless when it has done so much for women and imo it's quite ignorant to think that way. the only law i can find that was recently declared in spain is one that aims to strengthen its laws against rape so i sincerely hope you don't mean that.

there is no attack on freedom of expression. there is an attack on misogyny. people who are openly sexist are challenged, yes, but for someone who claims to be anti-misogynist I feel like that shouldn't be a problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bleeeeeep, Chinaski, ColorlessTrees and 3 others
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
not going to start a lengthy discussion about this with you but please do your own research before you make such claims. Feminism has very much made more and more women feel able to speak out about their experiences with sexual assault/rape and stand up to harassment etc. Just because feminists did one thing you didn't like doesn't mean the entire movement is useless when it has done so much for women and imo it's quite ignorant to think that way. the only law i can find that was recently declared in spain is one that aims to strengthen its laws against rape so i sincerely hope you don't mean that.

there is no attack on freedom of expression. there is an attack on misogyny. people who are openly sexist are challenged, yes, but for someone who claims to be anti-misogynist I feel like that shouldn't be a problem.
Yes, I do not disagree with the movement, I disagree with the methods it uses, it is cruel that a movement is turned into a joke because of certain people
 
N

noname223

Angelic
Aug 18, 2020
4,981
I think freedom of expression is very essential. SInce I know the issues of this forum I appreciate freedom of expression more than ever. The US values this freedom more than my country. Though it also has disadvantages...
However since I am in this forum it moved me absolutely more in the direction of free-speech and I question more the policies of my own country.
It is important to be allowed to talk about topics which the society dislikes or stigmatizes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GentleJerk and Nolan96
NumbItAll

NumbItAll

expendable
May 20, 2018
1,090
I am against all speech, including my own. Most people are idiots with nothing valuable to say. Just think, if speech were banned, you would not have had to read this post of mine.
 
  • Yay!
  • Like
  • Informative
Reactions: RainAndSadness, justsayin, GentleJerk and 6 others
callme

callme

I'm a loose cannon - I bang all the time.
Aug 15, 2021
1,235
Depends on how good of an artist you are. Never wee this come up in freedom talks, do you? Nobody stops you from drawing a brown paint balloon splattering over the neighbor while he's going to work.

It's all because of people who like to be offended by words and words alone. Probably won't bat an eye if you wrote "Asswipe" in pee in the snow on their lawn.

Neither anybody restricts expression in music.
 
Sanva

Sanva

:/
Dec 10, 2021
261
it is problematic though because there are plenty of women on this forum and seeing outright misogynist posts can be upsetting. there's just not really much of a reason why someone would have to say hateful shit. freedom of speech is great until someone makes comments that are clearly hostile towards a certain group of people; to me, that's when a line is crossed.

i suppose the person doesn't have to be banned immediately, just get a warning & the post should be deleted, which the mods are already doing. but i have seen some very questionable posts that were allowed to stay up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: avoid_slow_death, GentleJerk, ColorlessTrees and 3 others
bad luck

bad luck

Memento mori
Mar 2, 2021
772
Freedom from what...?

Every time I speak I have to measure my words so as not to offend someone.
 
Nolan96

Nolan96

Mage
Feb 12, 2022
506
About the title, there are already several people with whom I have spoken and sometimes we touch on political or social issues, I always express how important freedom of expression is for people and some respond that freedom of expression is overvalued.

What the hell is happening?
Free speech is good as long as the experts are all in agreement that it's good, but if you're a white male with the wrong opinions you deserve to be harassed, demonized, caricatured, intimidated and silenced online, get fired from your job, get expelled from school, maybe even bashed in the streets, and then laughed at when you say you're being censored because "the 1st amendment only applies to the gvt not to [insert all the other massively bloated institutions of power that have the ability to wreck your life in modern society here], ur so uneducated for not understanding this LOL". (Sanva above was kind of going with this disingenuous angle.)

It makes me unbelievably miserable but what helps for me sometimes is listening to other people who have been silenced with an open mind and trying to be supportive.
 
Last edited:
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,861
The first issue is that arguments around free speech have been weaponised by bad-faith actors seeking to Trojan-horse lunatic ideas into mainstream consciousness. For example, "Why are you censoring me? What are you hiding? I am just trying to open debate on the evidence that 5G towers cause coronavirus." (Or some similar nonsense.)

Where the intention is to promote mayhem or to encourage violence against minorities, we should oppose it. This includes the work of troll farms, or even the algorithm of Facebook that is intended to promote as much divisive material as possible.

However, non-mainstream ideas or individual perspectives that do not conform to the groupthink consensus are very important and must be protected if we are to evolve our very primitive society out of the dark ages. Those of us (all of us?) with progressive views on voluntary euthanasia, for example, know well the frustration of being demonised without our perspectives being given fair consideration.

[Mod note: Quote removed]
I understand why you would feel this way, and I acknowledge the intellectual merit in your posts. However, it is important to distinguish perspectives from which a powerless individual is venting following extreme trauma, versus a legitimate intellectual contribution.

The 'f' word is one that I avoid using because it is emotionally-charged, divisive and yet lacks a simple definition. Some would conflate it with misandry, others with universal equality. By avoiding trigger words, we are able to instead focus on the nuanced substance of quality discussion.

As a man who has not experienced sexual assault, my instinct is not to judge the rantings of such victims on their intellectual integrity, but to hurt at seeing a fellow human crying out in severe distress.

I have said before, and will say it again, I would have no problem going to jail if it meant just once I could protect a woman from being attacked by a man like that. I feel sad to be a part of a society in which such things happen and are even perpetuated. Especially in the context of this forum, I would want to do whatever I can to heal such people and help them to restore any sense of connection with the opposite gender before this revolting battle of the sexes spreads its cancer any further.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: avoid_slow_death, ColorlessTrees and whatevs
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
Returning to the topic (because I don't want the thread to be diverted), I think that those who say that freedom of expression is overrated are pseudo-moralists who believe that the elimination of certain freedoms in society would contribute to a more disciplined world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whatevs
Feeding Pigeons

Feeding Pigeons

Warlock
Aug 5, 2021
776
What people don't understand is that freedom of speech is there to protect hate speech. Why? Because anything you don't like being said can be deemed hate speech. If you're only saying things that everyone agrees with, what exactly is the point of having the term freedom of speech in the first place? What is the first amendment protecting if NOT things people don't like to be said?

Everyone is so happy to jump on someone putting down what is close to their hearts, they never think for a second "I may be the one in their position one day." But no worries, we're well on our way of nothing unpopular being allowed to be said. You're doing a great job, you fucking useful idiots.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ReallyTired, GenesAndEnvironment, whatevs and 1 other person
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
The first issue is that arguments around free speech have been weaponised by bad-faith actors seeking to Trojan-horse lunatic ideas into mainstream consciousness. For example, "Why are you censoring me? What are you hiding? I am just trying to open debate on the evidence that 5G towers cause coronavirus." (Or some similar nonsense.)

Where the intention is to promote mayhem or to encourage violence against minorities, we should oppose it. This includes the work of troll farms, or even the algorithm of Facebook that is intended to promote as much divisive material as possible.

However, non-mainstream ideas or individual perspectives that do not conform to the groupthink consensus are very important and must be protected if we are to evolve our very primitive society out of the dark ages. Those of us (all of us?) with progressive views on voluntary euthanasia, for example, know well the frustration of being demonised without our perspectives being given fair consideration.


I understand why you would feel this way, and I acknowledge the intellectual merit in your posts. However, it is important to distinguish perspectives from which a powerless individual is venting following extreme trauma, versus a legitimate intellectual contribution.

The 'f' word is one that I avoid using because it is emotionally-charged, divisive and yet lacks a simple definition. Some would conflate it with misandry, others with universal equality. By avoiding trigger words, we are able to instead focus on the nuanced substance of quality discussion.

As a man who has not experienced sexual assault, my instinct is not to judge the rantings of such victims on their intellectual integrity, but to hurt at seeing a fellow human crying out in severe distress.

I have said before, and will say it again, I would have no problem going to jail if it meant just once I could protect a woman from being attacked by a man like that. I feel sad to be a part of a society in which such things happen and are even perpetuated. Especially in the context of this forum, I would want to do whatever I can to heal such people and help them to restore any sense of connection with the opposite gender before this revolting battle of the sexes spreads its cancer any further.
Ah, I don't know why someone would get the impression that I "minimize rape", since not one of my posts concerned that type of violence, which is undoubtedly almost exclusive to women.

My issue has always been how homicides of women by men have become political tools to galvanize the masses into accepting, for example, laws that destroy the "innocent until proven guilty" legal paradigm in countries like Spain. In this particular country (mine) suicides have always been around 60 times more numerous than relationship or sexual assault related homicides but the news barely spoke about it, while they made sure to have a daily counter of female homicides so that people don't forget to feel outraged about it and ask for legal reform.

While I have always been attracted to the idea of voluntary death, as it places an enormous level of autonomy in the individual, a large part of suicides are done bitterly and forced by circumstances. If society is to actually care about health, it cannot ignore the disparity between the attention given to male on female violence vs deaths of despair.
 
Last edited:
maakies

maakies

DOOK
Dec 7, 2021
132
the opinions in this thread i've read make me want to ctb. that being said, everyone is free to have their opinions and have them challenged. i swear i think i might do it by april now lol
 
  • Hugs
  • Yay!
Reactions: GentleJerk and ColorlessTrees
Antigonish

Antigonish

Mage
Sep 19, 2020
593
It's only overvalued if you support censorship...

Even if it makes allot of assholes. It's still very vitally the opposite of oppression.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whatevs
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
I also wanted to clarify my point of view to @OceanBlue , I have no problem with feminism or with women, but there are 2 things that I don't like about the movement. Because many feminists focus on politics and the decisions that ideology supports, it is becoming impossible for us not to associate feminism with communism (note that I feel deep contempt for communism for having separated me from my loved ones). and lead everyone to misery). The second point is that I do not feel that modern feminism is getting to the point regarding the various problems that we are facing in society, the number of girls raped during the pandemic is alarming, and that problem is being handled at a snail's pace, In some way, the problems must be made more directly visible. It is not fair that a military soldier has to go to prison if he is found having sex with someone of the same sex.
PD: Master Roshi is a good character
 
Judah

Judah

Enlightened
Oct 1, 2020
1,540
I merely said that actual human rights activists, feminists & LGBTQ+ activists included, demand only justice & equality. Isn't feminism about equality? Is it about covert misandry?
Can someone be a feminist and anti-progressive at the same time? This question also applies to others.
 

Similar threads

Ethel
Replies
3
Views
167
Suicide Discussion
Glazed_Orange
G
J
Replies
1
Views
175
Suicide Discussion
Praying 4 a Miracle
P
banger12
Replies
0
Views
177
Suicide Discussion
banger12
banger12
BecomingTired
Replies
0
Views
86
Suicide Discussion
BecomingTired
BecomingTired
WhatDoesTheFoxSay?
Replies
18
Views
566
Offtopic
rebelnow111
R