Discussion Is Christianity the solution to our problems?

[Anxieyote]

I wanted to share a powerful idea that I stumbled across while listening to the Killstream podcast of all things.

For those who aren't familiar with it, it's a podcast that centers around "Internet Bloodsports" which generally means debates that are centered around controversial subjects, and (mostly) uncensored dialogue between the guests. Things get heated and emotional quickly, and it's great fun to listen to if anyone wants to check it out.

Anyway, there were two Christian men debating about what an ideal society should look like.

They both agreed that if the principles of Christianity were adopted and reinforced by most of the world, conversations about world peace could legitimately be on the table. The idea is that if every country on the planet were able to agree on one set of guiding principles, all of humanity would be on the same page in terms of what our purpose is, and what we're trying to accomplish as a species.

Now even though both of them agreed that Christian values are the "best" values in terms of how all humans should conduct themselves, they disagreed when it came to conversion. I'll give you kind of a shortened version of what each of their perspectives were, but I'm mainly going to focus on what this guy said:

"I'm a Christian, but I'm willing to accept the fact that there is no version of reality where I can convince everyone on the planet to accept Christianity fully—and that includes ideas that are hard to sell; like the belief that Jesus actually rose from the dead, and every literal interpretation of the religious texts. I'm willing to meet those people halfway, and propose that a cliff-notes version of the Christian principles should be incorporated into classrooms and prioritized just as much as subjects like reading, writing, math, and science. If good values aren't being instilled by parents, there needs to be an agreed-upon tome of life advice which provides universal rules that will generally result in greater satisfaction from everyone's life on this planet."

The other guy was a bit more dogmatic, and argued that you can't truly adopt the guiding principles of Christianity without accepting Jesus Christ as the "one true God" and engaging with more spiritual activities like praying, and "letting him into your heart".

Basically saying that if you remove spirituality from the equation, nobody is going to be incentivized to follow the rules. It has to be made clear that there are consequences for not following those principles—and concepts like heaven and hell are needed for people to grasp how important that is.

I can see both sides of the argument here, but in my opinion, the spirituality side of Christianity does (and did) turn me away from Christian values because it required me to believe in things that I can't logically get on board with—like the resurrection of Jesus, or the great flood.

It does make me wonder how my life would have turned out if I had more conversations when I was a kid about what the ingredients were for a fulfilling life, and how to achieve them.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

Why would it be the solution to a problem when it's objectively not true

Infographic of the Day: What the Bible Got Wrong

Get us a fact-checker, stat!

www.fastcompany.com

 

[jandek]

I think the short answer is no...

However, I can understand the attraction of living in a world in which our most basic metaphysical and ethical frameworks are merely taken for granted and not up for debate. In the past, for the most part, you simply had no choice. The commentators you mention are at least honest in admitting that there is a coercive element behind it: rules and laws without punishment, or the threat of it, are in effect not laws at all. I also agree with them that "secular" education, far from being a truly neutral space, really undermines religious values. I would add that this only highlights the extent to which religious belief is a product of socialization rather than supernatural power.

 

[lostmylove]

E Michael Jones has good takes on life if you're down that sorta internet thing. Strong Catholic. I am a believer personally.

 

[demuic]

Religious people can't even be incentivized to follow their own rules even when they think it's literally true. Most Christians would be burning in hell in accordance to some passage in their own doctrine.

Besides that, there were large swathes of time in which virtually the entire population of a nation or society was effectively forced to follow one religion (Christianity or otherwise) and those places were no more harmonious, moral, or virtuous than anywhere else.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

Religious people can't even be incentivized to follow their own rules even when they think it's literally true. Most Christians would be burning in hell in accordance to some passage in their own doctrine.

Besides that, there were large swathes of time in which virtually the entire population of a nation or society was effectively forced to follow one religion (Christianity or otherwise) and those places were no more harmonious, moral, or virtuous than anywhere else.

Africa - the most religious continent on earth
Also africa - the worst place on earth for most life outcomes

 

[Shu]

I wanted to share a powerful idea that I stumbled across while listening to the Killstream podcast of all things.

For those who aren't familiar with it, it's a podcast that centers around "Internet Bloodsports" which generally means debates that are centered around controversial subjects, and (mostly) uncensored dialogue between the guests. Things get heated and emotional quickly, and it's great fun to listen to if anyone wants to check it out.

Anyway, there were two Christian men debating about what an ideal society should look like.

They both agreed that if the principles of Christianity were adopted and reinforced by most of the world, conversations about world peace could legitimately be on the table. The idea is that if every country on the planet were able to agree on one set of guiding principles, all of humanity would be on the same page in terms of what our purpose is, and what we're trying to accomplish as a species.

Now even though both of them agreed that Christian values are the "best" values in terms of how all humans should conduct themselves, they disagreed when it came to conversion. I'll give you kind of a shortened version of what each of their perspectives were, but I'm mainly going to focus on what this guy said:

"I'm a Christian, but I'm willing to accept the fact that there is no version of reality where I can convince everyone on the planet to accept Christianity fully—and that includes ideas that are hard to sell; like the belief that Jesus actually rose from the dead, and every literal interpretation of the religious texts. I'm willing to meet those people halfway, and propose that a cliff-notes version of the Christian principles should be incorporated into classrooms and prioritized just as much as subjects like reading, writing, math, and science. If good values aren't being instilled by parents, there needs to be an agreed-upon tome of life advice which provides universal rules that will generally result in greater satisfaction from everyone's life on this planet."

The other guy was a bit more dogmatic, and argued that you can't truly adopt the guiding principles of Christianity without accepting Jesus Christ as the "one true God" and engaging with more spiritual activities like praying, and "letting him into your heart".

Basically saying that if you remove spirituality from the equation, nobody is going to be incentivized to follow the rules. It has to be made clear that there are consequences for not following those principles—and concepts like heaven and hell are needed for people to grasp how important that is.

I can see both sides of the argument here, but in my opinion, the spirituality side of Christianity does (and did) turn me away from Christian values because it required me to believe in things that I can't logically get on board with—like the resurrection of Jesus, or the great flood.

It does make me wonder how my life would have turned out if I had more conversations when I was a kid about what the ingredients were for a fulfilling life, and how to achieve them.

"Jesus christ" wasent the "one true god" christ was a SON of the creator.

"Jesus christ" wasent the "one true god" christ was a SON of the creator.

Which is the sun in the sky probably.
I like kemetic teachings the most.

 

[motel rooms]

 

[novem]

I am an atheist but even i started mentioning god when talking about my problems when i faced my crisis.
Religion has its role in society bu regulating people's behavior. Religion was made up but people try to use it to solve problems that they don't know how to solve. Buddism for instance doesn't have a god and it is still a religion. I think Christianity is outdated, and there could be more progressive new religions. Problem is the religious agents are greedy bastards lol.

 

[Quiet Desperation]

The host of that podcast was convicted and pled no contest to sharing revenge porn after broadcasting a sexual encounter with his girlfriend to his viewers without her consent. He was banned from Youtube after violating prohibitions on hate speech, then suspended again on the next platform to which he fled. According to reputable non-profit and media groups, he frequently features white nationalists and other figures involved in extremist propaganda.

If all that wasn't enough already, a so-called "debate" between two Christians is basically worthless to non-Christians.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[Spiritual survivor]

Christianity taught correctly does solve a lot of problems. But people can't be forced to believe, they have to experience proof that it's is true and supernatural.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I mean they're probably technically right in the sense that the world would feel a lot better for everyone if they all could actually agree on some major topics. The part where they're wrong is that the ideology doesn't have to be Christianity. It can literally be any belief system though obviously within the same divisions for each religion. The problem is that no matter what ideology becomes dominant it will be human nature to want to rebel against it even if it has net positives.

Not to poke the communism/socialism bear again but I do think that you could apply all the same logic to that and if somehow everyone (and it has to be everyone with even a tiny amount of influence) manages to fly under the commie banner then maybe they could finally get the utopia they so crave. Good luck ever getting that to happen though and it's not like other differences wouldn't rise up eventually and cause future wars so maybe the real solution is to just populate a society with all people who are guaranteed to think and feel exactly the same about everything. Yeah it would probably be boring as sin but at least they'd probably be happy.

 

[Al Cappella]

Christ didn't eat bacon. You can't trust anyone that won't eat bacon…

 

[Dead Ghost]

I don't believe in God ... in fact I bet about 17 years ago. I was a Catholic, but as I have always been a lonely person and used to thinking for myself, I have been creating my own belief system apart from everyone since I was a child.

By adulthood it made no sense to remain part of the Catholic Church but we had almost nothing in common. So for consistency I went to the nearest parish and asked the monk to tell me how he could "unsubscribe" me as a faithful ... he got angry with me, he finally told me I had to go to the vicarage of the cathedral and bring a copy of the baptismal certificate and by the way I was grateful that people like me were not inside the church - he asked me if I did it because I was gay, ¿? ¿!! ... well I'm not, but what problem would there be? -

I was summoned to the vicarage of the Cathedral and I showed up ... and they surprised me again, they commented to me that people did not show up for the summonses. Apparently the main motivation of those who decided to bet was out of pure hatred towards the church and this was not, by far, my reason. In fact, I chatted for a while with the vicar and he was much kinder to me than the friar next to my house. And he understood me perfectly and respected me.

I believe that the solution for us to live better together will always be respect for ourselves and others. I respect other beliefs and religions, as well as different ideologies and ways of understanding the world.
Yes, I oppose the impositions of others, not wanting to talk about the problems we have in common, people who seek the easiest path with criteria and decisions based on selfishness and pride ... and so on and so forth. I am all set to debate and position myself - and to make mistakes and rectify as well, of course - with everyone, although in today's world this is a risk that I sometimes don't like to take, because there are a lot of extremism that doesn't leave a lot of people with flexibility of thought and it scares me to delve into what debates.

This is my opinion, spreading knowledge and respect for oneself and others, I am convinced. But not a single way of understanding the world, a single common point of view.
The strength is in diversity, now and forever. That means Humanity ... diverse as a whole strong in its purposes. We just have to learn to live better together and be much happier.

Good bye

Spoiler: Original Text

Jo no crec en Déu... de fet vaig apostatar ara farà uns 17 anys. Era catòlic, però com sempre he sigut una persona solitària i acostumada a pensar per mi mateix, vaig anar creant-me un sistema de creences propi al marge de tothom desde ben petit.

Arribat a l'edat adulta no tenía pas cap sentit seguir sent part de l'Esglèsia Catòlica sinó teniem gairebé rés en comú. Així que per coheréncia em vaig apropar a la parròquia més propera i li vaig demanar al frare que m'expliqués com em podía donar "de baixa" com a fidel... es va emprenyar amb mi, finalment em va dir que había d'anar a la vicaría de la catedral i portar una còpia del certificat del baptisme i de pas em va agraïr el fet de que persones com jo no estiguessin dins l'esglèsia -em va preguntar si ho feia perquè era gay, ¿?¿!!... doncs no ho sóc pas, però quin problema hi hauria?-

A la vicaría de la Catedral em van citar i m'hi vaig presentar... i es van tornar a sorprendre de mi, em van comentar que la gent no es presentava a les citacions. Pel que es veu la motivació principal dels que decidien apostar era per pur odi cap a l'esglèsia i aquest no era pas, ni de bon tròs, el meu motiu. De fet vaig xerrar força estona amb el vicari i va ser amb mi molt més amable que el frare del costat de casa meva. I em va entendre perfectament i em va respectar.

Crec que la sol·lució per que convisquem millor entre nosaltres serà sempre el respecte cap un mateix i cap als altres. Jo respecto les altres creences i religions, així com diferents ideologies i maneres de comprendre el món.
Si que m'oposo a les imposicions dels altres, a no voler parlar dels problemes que tenim en comú, a les persones que cerquen el camí més senzill amb criteris i decisons fonamentats en l'egoísme i en la supérbia... i així i tot estic disposat a debatre i a posicionar-me -i a equivocar-me i rectificar també, esclar- amb tothom, tot i que en el món d'avuí día aquest és un risc que de vegades no m'agrada correr, ja que hi ha molts extremismes que no deixen flexibilitat de pensament a moltes persones i em fa por endinsar-me en segons quins debats.

Aquest és el meu parer, difondre coneixement i respecte cap a un mateix i cap als altres, n'estic convençut. Però no pas una sola manera de comprendre el món, un sol punt de vista comú.
La força és a la diversitat, ara i sempre. Això significa la Humanitat... diversa en el seu conjunt forta en els seus propòsits. Només hem d'aprendre a conviure millor i serem molt més feliços.

A reveure

*I always put the original text because I'm afraid the translator will make a fool of me. It's my defense.

 

[DynamicDepression]

Christ didn't eat bacon. You can't trust anyone that won't eat bacon…

 

[6ftunder]

Some of the most judgemental, ignorant, bitchy people go to church every Sunday.

 

[timf]

This is a difficult subject because even most Christians do not understand what Christianity is at the core. Paul writes that divisions (denominations) are symptomatic of immaturity. Since most people see Christianity through the lens of one denomination or another, there is by definition an incomplete or immature understanding.

There can be no perfect society with imperfect humans. People who find the core of Christianity can improve, but then so can some of those who follow Stoicism. The bible describes a future time when Christ will rule on earth for 1000 years. This is a time when people will live longer and there will be no war. However, even during this time people will be rebellious and at the end of the 1000 years still go to war.

Christianity is supposed to be about those seeking deeper truth. Instead too many seek to impose their idea of truth on others.

 

[Pluto]

 

[MellowAvenue]

For some people it probably is, but there is no universal answer to saving the world.

 

[lecyleclec]

I find this post to be quite tone deaf. Christianity has resulted in the deaths of millions. People have been killed for not practicing Christianity. Christian colonial empires are also the main reason homophobic legislature still exists in many parts of the world. I don't care what anyone says. It is a violent religion and it plays a huge factor in me being unsafe in many parts of the world.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

I find this post to be quite tone deaf. Christianity has resulted in the deaths of millions. People have been killed for not practicing Christianity. Christian colonial empires are also the main reason homophobic legislature still exists in many parts of the world. I don't care what anyone says. It is a violent religion and it plays a huge factor in me being unsafe in many parts of the world.

It's almost as bad as Islam.
How could the west lead a moral crusade against Islamic barbarism when the country at the heart of the west (USA) is so heavily influenced by evangelicals and pedophile pope worshippers.

Pope Francis is a pedophile. Period.

 

[braindead911]

ReLIEgion is poison.

 

[whatevs]

I don't care what anyone says. It is a violent religion and it plays a huge factor in me being unsafe in many parts of the world.

Countries where Islam has made the whole country, or large groups violent in modern times: dozens.

Countries where Christianity has made the whole country, or large groups violent in modern times: none.

The host of that podcast was convicted and pled no contest to sharing revenge porn after broadcasting a sexual encounter with his girlfriend to his viewers without her consent. He was banned from Youtube after violating prohibitions on hate speech, then suspended again on the next platform to which he fled. According to reputable non-profit and media groups, he frequently features white nationalists and other figures involved in extremist propaganda.

If all that wasn't enough already, a so-called "debate" between two Christians is basically worthless to non-Christians.

Hope that answers your question.

The OP is probably politically open minded to some of these ideas, just like me. We are not scared of white-nationalists or the far-right, some of what they have to say is interesting. But nobody sane likes a fat piece of shit like Ralph.

Btw, for those that have their eyes open "reputable non-profit and media groups" just means "people that get paid to maintain the status quo". It's like citing the WHO on "pandemic preparedness and response", we know that actually means "justifying the loss of freedom that we want for the proles".

I wanted to share a powerful idea that I stumbled across while listening to the Killstream podcast of all things.

For those who aren't familiar with it, it's a podcast that centers around "Internet Bloodsports" which generally means debates that are centered around controversial subjects, and (mostly) uncensored dialogue between the guests. Things get heated and emotional quickly, and it's great fun to listen to if anyone wants to check it out.

Anyway, there were two Christian men debating about what an ideal society should look like.

They both agreed that if the principles of Christianity were adopted and reinforced by most of the world, conversations about world peace could legitimately be on the table. The idea is that if every country on the planet were able to agree on one set of guiding principles, all of humanity would be on the same page in terms of what our purpose is, and what we're trying to accomplish as a species.

Now even though both of them agreed that Christian values are the "best" values in terms of how all humans should conduct themselves, they disagreed when it came to conversion. I'll give you kind of a shortened version of what each of their perspectives were, but I'm mainly going to focus on what this guy said:

"I'm a Christian, but I'm willing to accept the fact that there is no version of reality where I can convince everyone on the planet to accept Christianity fully—and that includes ideas that are hard to sell; like the belief that Jesus actually rose from the dead, and every literal interpretation of the religious texts. I'm willing to meet those people halfway, and propose that a cliff-notes version of the Christian principles should be incorporated into classrooms and prioritized just as much as subjects like reading, writing, math, and science. If good values aren't being instilled by parents, there needs to be an agreed-upon tome of life advice which provides universal rules that will generally result in greater satisfaction from everyone's life on this planet."

The other guy was a bit more dogmatic, and argued that you can't truly adopt the guiding principles of Christianity without accepting Jesus Christ as the "one true God" and engaging with more spiritual activities like praying, and "letting him into your heart".

Basically saying that if you remove spirituality from the equation, nobody is going to be incentivized to follow the rules. It has to be made clear that there are consequences for not following those principles—and concepts like heaven and hell are needed for people to grasp how important that is.

I can see both sides of the argument here, but in my opinion, the spirituality side of Christianity does (and did) turn me away from Christian values because it required me to believe in things that I can't logically get on board with—like the resurrection of Jesus, or the great flood.

It does make me wonder how my life would have turned out if I had more conversations when I was a kid about what the ingredients were for a fulfilling life, and how to achieve them.

At the end of the day this is a fruitless wondering session since you already admitted that you are unable to believe in the basic dogma of Christianity.

But aside from the impossibility of just devolving into a mythological religious mindset it's clearly true that humanity functioned better with a diffuse understanding that life has some sort of purpose and was created rather than randomized into existence. The current ontologically nihilistic worldview is even more nonsensical than believing God created the Universe in 6 days, as it's self-evident that life couldn't have both sprang from chaos and maintained systematic coherence for millions of years.

Religious people can't even be incentivized to follow their own rules even when they think it's literally true. Most Christians would be burning in hell in accordance to some passage in their own doctrine.

Besides that, there were large swathes of time in which virtually the entire population of a nation or society was effectively forced to follow one religion (Christianity or otherwise) and those places were no more harmonious, moral, or virtuous than anywhere else.

But they were more vital. High birth rates, lower suicides. Religion can be seen as an evolutionary necessity.

Morality has always been a cover for convenience when it comes to religion. It's actually more of a way of keeping society organized and motivated than a way to make people more virtuous. But some religions and religious people are actually virtuous in nature, like Buddhism.

 

[RandomBeaver]

Africa - the most religious continent on earth
Also africa - the worst place on earth for most life outcomes

Please refrain from making societal generalizations. Africa is much more diverse than we think and isn't homogenous.

Also some places are much more superstitious than religious leading to fear and uncertainty. You can literally scare some human traffickers in some places saying you're witch or a man of god. DRC presidents have dozen of false prophets (while many times relying on witchs also) at their disposal for regime continuation.

When we talk about Africa, we're also talking about North Africa. The most polite and respectful persons I've ever encountered were all Berbers.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

Please refrain from making societal generalizations. Africa is much more diverse than we think and isn't homogenous.

Also some places are much more superstitious than religious leading to fear and uncertainty. You can literally scare some human traffickers in some places saying you're witch or a man of god. DRC presidents have dozen of false prophets (while many times relying on witchs also) at their disposal for regime continuation.

When we talk about Africa, we're also talking about North Africa. The most polite and respectful persons I've ever encountered were all Berbers.

I don't care about africa being diverse. I care about objective information that shows it's a shitty place to live. Objectively africa is a wasteland - few want to live there and most people try to escape it. High HIV, low life expectancy , high child mortality, war , conflict.

These are hard FACTS about africa . And the abundance of religion and superstition in africa has a lot to do with the problems there

 

[novem]

I am more interested in Buddism, it doesnt strictly condemn ctb.

 

[onlyanimalsaregood]

I am more interested in Buddism, it doesnt strictly condemn ctb.

Me too

 

[novem]

Me too

i suppose it means cats are more likely to become buddist :)

 

[onlyanimalsaregood]

i suppose it means cats are more likely to become buddist :)

Ahaha maybe you're right. Buddhism is the only religion that I find even remotely interesting and would like to try.

 

[Eternaloblivionplea]

If it involves going on a crusade then dying in the holy lands, sign me up.