Interesting CO case study

[ladylazarus4]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6997989/

The deceased man used formic acid and sulfuric acid to generate CO. It is somewhat frightening to me, as CO is my most viable method.
Apologies if this study has already been posted elsewhere on the site.

 

[minamin]

I think I've seen this method posted about before (if not this specific combo of acids, another combo), but as hypothetical— mentioning that it can be done, but I haven't seen anyone document doing it or even getting the materials for it. Charcoal CO method seems most popular/probably easiest to procure the supplies for.

 

[Intoxicated]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6997989/

The deceased man used formic acid and sulfuric acid to generate CO. It is somewhat frightening to me, as CO is my most viable method.

That man did two major mistakes:
1 - he released CO into a vehicle (resulting in low concentration and prolonged time before loss of consciousness) instead of using a smaller volume like a trash bag and
2 - he ignored the need in filtering out the fumes of formic acid.

Using formic acid doesn't look like a wise choice either, since there are more safe reagents like sodium methanoate (formate) which produce CO when mixed with concentrated H2SO4 as well

227 Method II Preparation of carbon monoxide from sodium methanoate sodium | Course Hero

227 Method II Preparation of carbon monoxide from sodium methanoate sodium from CHEM MISC at College of Charleston

www.coursehero.com

 

[s54321]

I used that combo, knocked me out within a short time wtihout any side-effects. (stupid) car safed my life by turning on a/c to max itself. was pretty awful to wake up again

Would have used it again but Sulfuric acid hard to get nowadays here in europe since max allowed is 15% iirc since a few years. Formic acid quite easy to get still. i used about 7litres total, both 95%+, which seemed to be enough for a whole car, aslong as u keep the a/c off. got told in hospital that i prolly wouldnt have survived if they didnt straight put me on oxygen, but ofc thats something they only tell u afterwards

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I used that combo, knocked me out within a short time wtihout any side-effects. (stupid) car safed my life by turning on a/c to max itself. was pretty awful to wake up again

Would have used it again but Sulfuric acid hard to get nowadays here in europe since max allowed is 15% iirc since a few years. Formic acid quite easy to get still. i used about 7litres total, both 95%+, which seemed to be enough for a whole car, aslong as u keep the a/c off. got told in hospital that i prolly wouldnt have survived if they didnt straight put me on oxygen, but ofc thats something they only tell u afterwards

U used about 3 liters of each acid for 7 liters toal?

 

[s54321]

U used about 3 liters of each acid for 7 liters toal?

Ive used 5l 99% formic acid with 2l 96% sulphuric acid (6yrs ago, before it got banned here in eu, got told it should produce about 2.5-3k litres of CO in chemist forums

Others in Carbon monoxide topic said thats an awful proportion tho

I'm afraid your proportion of sulphuric to formic acid is completely off. All that formic acid is useless when you only have 2 L of sulphuric. The right proportion of sulphuric acid should be around 4 times that of the formic acid. Anything else is a waste of reagents.

 

[Artemisia]

Others in Carbon monoxide topic said thats an awful proportion tho

Posting the math for the reaction again, since it gets buried under the newer posts.


This is the equation, already balanced:
CH2O2 + H2SO4 = CO + H2SO4.H2O
1 mole of formic acid + 1 mole of sulfuric acid = 1 mole of carbon monoxide + 1 mole hydrated sulfuric acid

CH2O2
molecular weight =46,03 grs/mol
density = 1,22 grs/cm3

H2SO4
molecular weight = 98,079 grs/mol
density = 1,8356 grs/cm3

CO
molecular weight = 28,01 grs/mol
density = 0,00125 grs/cm3

We don't care about the H2SO4.H2O!

The GULPS method consists of using 50 ml (50 cm3) of formic acid and 250 ml (250 cm3) of sulfuric acid. I was curious, how much CO does it really produce? (Keep in mind that without heat or agitation the reaction my not be complete)

50 ml/cm3 of CH2O2 weight 61 grs (1,22 grs x 50), which is 1,325 mole (61 grs / 46,03)
250 ml/cm3 of H2SO4 weight 458,9 grs (1,8356 grs x 250), which is 4,679 mole

This means we have an excess of sulfuric acid. About 1/3 would be enough to react with all the formic acid, but I guess this is to make sure there's enough and then some more.

How much CO does it produce then? The formic acid is therefore the limitation, from 1 mole of CH2O2 we get 1 mole of CO. From 50 ml, which are 1,325 moles, we'll get the same 1,325 moles of CO (if all the formic acid reacts, which may not happen due to the conditions in which the reaction happens). And how much is that? 1,325 moles of CO are 37,113 grs (1,325 x 28,01 grs) or 29690,4 cm3 (37,113 grs / 0,00125). That's 29,69 liters!!!

From 250 ml + 50 ml you can get 29,69 liters of CO!
But since, in my case, my formic is at 85%, then from 50 ml I'll get about 25 L of CO. Still impressive!

Just to take it one step further, considering we want at least 10000 ppm, meaning 1% of CO in the air, the amount of CO produced is enough for 2500 liters of air or 2,5 m3! So, theoretically, you don't even need a mask, you could let the reaction happen inside a small car and quickly get in and it'd most likely still work.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Posting the math for the reaction again, since it gets buried under the newer posts.


This is the equation, already balanced:
CH2O2 + H2SO4 = CO + H2SO4.H2O
1 mole of formic acid + 1 mole of sulfuric acid = 1 mole of carbon monoxide + 1 mole hydrated sulfuric acid

CH2O2
molecular weight =46,03 grs/mol
density = 1,22 grs/cm3

H2SO4
molecular weight = 98,079 grs/mol
density = 1,8356 grs/cm3

CO
molecular weight = 28,01 grs/mol
density = 0,00125 grs/cm3

We don't care about the H2SO4.H2O!

The GULPS method consists of using 50 ml (50 cm3) of formic acid and 250 ml (250 cm3) of sulfuric acid. I was curious, how much CO does it really produce? (Keep in mind that without heat or agitation the reaction my not be complete)

50 ml/cm3 of CH2O2 weight 61 grs (1,22 grs x 50), which is 1,325 mole (61 grs / 46,03)
250 ml/cm3 of H2SO4 weight 458,9 grs (1,8356 grs x 250), which is 4,679 mole

This means we have an excess of sulfuric acid. About 1/3 would be enough to react with all the formic acid, but I guess this is to make sure there's enough and then some more.

How much CO does it produce then? The formic acid is therefore the limitation, from 1 mole of CH2O2 we get 1 mole of CO. From 50 ml, which are 1,325 moles, we'll get the same 1,325 moles of CO (if all the formic acid reacts, which may not happen due to the conditions in which the reaction happens). And how much is that? 1,325 moles of CO are 37,113 grs (1,325 x 28,01 grs) or 29690,4 cm3 (37,113 grs / 0,00125). That's 29,69 liters!!!

From 250 ml + 50 ml you can get 29,69 liters of CO!
But since, in my case, my formic is at 85%, then from 50 ml I'll get about 25 L of CO. Still impressive!

Just to take it one step further, considering we want at least 10000 ppm, meaning 1% of CO in the air, the amount of CO produced is enough for 2500 liters of air or 2,5 m3! So, theoretically, you don't even need a mask, you could let the reaction happen inside a small car and quickly get in and it'd most likely still work.

Yes but this assumes ideal conditions enough heat , formic acid purity etc. . the only way to know for sure is to test your sertup in a small see through container. You need a co meter . For example test In a 10 liter sterilite container
I will use a phone in the container to video record co levels from the meter. Sterilite & phone recorder stand tripod are low priced.
In the Gulps the co output tube is drilled into the container.
I will drill a small hole in the lid to be able to pull the top off with a rope from a distance.

We're u able to find formic and sulfuric acid for sale ? What about buying from the USA or China? I'm in the USA and I am going to buy the acids for the test

 

[Artemisia]

Yes but this assumes ideal conditions enough heat , formic acid purity etc. . the only way to know for sure is to test your sertup in a small see through container. You need a co meter . For example test In a 10 liter sterilite container
I will use a phone in the container to video record co levels from the meter. Sterilite & phone recorder stand tripod are low priced.
In the Gulps the co output tube is drilled into the container.
I will drill a small hole in the lid to be able to pull the top off with a rope from a distance.

We're u able to find formic and sulfuric acid for sale ? What about buying from the USA or China? I'm in the USA and I am going to buy the acids for the test

That's why I initially wanted to run some tests. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to find a high precision CO meter in Europe (I ordered one from Amazon, when it arrived it was actually a CO2 meter.... ) and I'm too sick to move much.
So I'm just providing the math and hoping someone else does the experiments.
Formic acid is easy to find, it's used in apiculture to kill mites. High concentration sulphuric is banned in Europe, so you have 2 options: either buy battery acid which is sulphuric at about 37% and then distill it or buy from the usual country. I did both, because at first I didn't know it was possible to get the highly concentrated one. I have no idea how this works in the USA.

 

[dune_dweller]

Well, I'm no chemist, so I think if I were to try this method I would use charcoal bricks and a tent.

I actually have some bricks now that I use to burn resin incense but the fumes are so strong that I wonder how I would withstand it even if I were trying to CTB.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

That's why I initially wanted to run some tests. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to find a high precision CO meter in Europe (I ordered one from Amazon, when it arrived it was actually a CO2 meter.... ) and I'm too sick to move much.
So I'm just providing the math and hoping someone else does the experiments.
Formic acid is easy to find, it's used in apiculture to kill mites. High concentration sulphuric is banned in Europe, so you have 2 options: either buy battery acid which is sulphuric at about 37% and then distill it or buy from the usual country. I did both, because at first I didn't know it was possible to get the highly concentrated one. I have no idea how this works in the USA.

I didn't understand if u were able to buy concentrated sulfuric acid or can u?

The usual country?

In the USA 98% sulfuric acid is still available for purchase and home delivery. I just ordered should be able to make a test with in a week or two have to get meter also

We're u able to return the co2 meter ?

Tpi meter was available but expensive. I found another on Amazon USA but don't know if it is legitimate

 

[Intoxicated]

That's why I initially wanted to run some tests. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to find a high precision CO meter in Europe (I ordered one from Amazon, when it arrived it was actually a CO2 meter.... ) and I'm too sick to move much.

You wouldn't need any CO meter in case of using a plastic bag for collecting carbon monoxide and further inhaling it from there. The volume of produced CO can be controlled by inflation of the bag, since carbon monoxide is basically the only gas that can be produced in the reaction. Just imagine how much ppm of CO you can get inside a bag with 2L of the gas, not to mention 10L or more.

 

[Artemisia]

I didn't understand if u were able to buy concentrated sulfuric acid or can u?

The usual country?

In the USA 98% sulfuric acid is still available for purchase and home delivery. I just ordered should be able to make a test with in a week or two have to get meter also

We're u able to return the co2 meter ?

Tpi meter was available but expensive. I found another on Amazon USA but don't know if it is legitimate

I eventually was able to buy the concentrated acid, but it was almost entirely by chance that I discovered it.

Poland. All the good stuff comes from Poland!

I'll be looking forward to the results of your experiments!

Yeah. I was able to send it back and get a refund. It was the seller's fault anyway for messing up the item's description.

You wouldn't need any CO meter in case of using a plastic bag for collecting carbon monoxide and further inhaling it from there. The volume of produced CO can be controlled by inflation of the bag, since carbon monoxide is basically the only gas that can be produced in the reaction. Just imagine how much ppm of CO you can get inside a bag with 2L of the gas, not to mention 10L or more.

That's an interesting idea! It'll have to be a big bag though, if 50 ml of formic even come close to producing 25 L! If I can, I'll give it a try with maybe 10 ml.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

@Intoxicated @Artemisia @ all sasu .

In the co test into a plastic bag:
How to release the CO from a plastic bag from a few metres away so that the CO emanating from bag doesn't affect me

 

[Intoxicated]

How to release the CO from a plastic bag from a few metres away so that the CO emanating from bag doesn't affect me

You can release CO right in front of yourself as long as your mouth is closed and you don't breathe (it's possible to plug the nose by a clothespin in order to reduce the chances of inhaling CO to minimum), then quickly leave the dangerous area and resume breathing.

Before breath holding, it makes sense to hyperventilate for 30 - 60 seconds. This should let you hold your breath longer than usually, since hyperventilation reduces CO2 levels in the blood a lot, thus delaying hypercapnic symptoms which take place when CO2 accumulates to a high degree. After hyperventilation is done and before breath holding begins, it makes sense to inhale as much air as possible. This should give you maximal possible time before appearance of hypercapnic symptoms and reduce the chances of accidental inhalation since your lungs are already nearly full.

You can practice and check how much time you can hold your breath under the described conditions beforehand to be sure that you'll be able to complete all the steps safely.

 

[murun_b]

There are a number of case reports describing CO suicides where the acid method was used. I clearly remember this one, because the guy recorded himself, which makes it one of the more informative ones. He did not use a gas washing bottle or similar device to filter out the acid fumes and sadly had to suffer quite a bit before passing out.

@Intoxicated The plastic bag method definitely sounds like a practical approach. But why I'd prefer releasing the gas into the environment (in a tent or small room) is that you can use a timing device to trigger the reaction. You could take a high dose of sleeping pills and have the reaction start while you're asleep. I've read another case report where a guy did essentially that. It may not be rational, but I believe it would take away some of my anxiety if I knew that what is making me lose consciousness is not what is going to kill me.

That would be my ideal method, I believe. Am I stupid for having this fantasy?

 

[Marco77]

Doesn't this method cause tachycardia?

 

[Intoxicated]

The plastic bag method definitely sounds like a practical approach.

Some people used plastic bags for H2S poisoning (see https://apjmt.mums.ac.ir/article_7672_626586604b06883d15cf5d486aebf0d9.pdf), this approach should work well with CO too. However, filtering out vapours of formic acid may be especially important in this case.

It may not be rational, but I believe it would take away some of my anxiety if I knew that what is making me lose consciousness is not what is going to kill me.

I think, anxiety can be mitigated by using various substances like nitrous oxide or alprazolam or by inducing anger (anger can effectively suppress anxiety).

 

[ladylazarus4]

would the plastic bag method be like an exit bag except a hose going from the reaction to an oven bag over your head?