Important: Defending yourself against involuntary hospitalization

[Al Cappella]

I can't talk right now, trying to squeeze the oil from a rattlesnake…

 

[lostmylove]

The European Convention on Human Rights is separate from European Union!

All well and good in theory but police here would punch you in your mouth for resisting arrest if you started quoting this nonsense at them. It's just not practical.

Quoting human rights laws at people and saying police officers or medical workers are breaking their oath will get you laughed at.

Best advise for people is if they're faced with hospitals. Play their game, don't over react . Ride it out. Don't attempt suicide locked up or say you want to die. Be nice and respectful and wait it out.

Do this and you maybe out in 48 hours.

Putting up a fight and claiming you have all these laws to back you up just going to make the staff torment you and you'll fall short. You're not going to talk your way out of this by reading an e book. You're condemning people to suffer in ways not needed.

 

[its-about-time]

Lmao. This is a laughably great post.

Nah, there's no legal squirming to be done. I'm in US and have been involuntary before, they don't need shit to put me there again against my will. My lawyer even told me that- once you've been involuntary once it takes nearly nothing to do it again.

BTW, they automatically give you a pro bono lawyer when you're involuntarily hospitalized. And it's not like they'd let you just walk out to pursue a legal battle… they'd hold you indefinitely while you battled with aid of a lawyer, at which point you're already involuntarily held, so… The lawyer I had certainly wasn't like "here's how to get out of this" it was more "here's all the ways in which they can further massively fuck you and if they pursue that I'll be your defense."

 

[hush hush]

All well and good in theory but police here would punch you in your mouth for resisting arrest if you started quoting this nonsense at them. It's just not practical.

Quoting human rights laws at people and saying police officers or medical workers are breaking their oath will get you laughed at.

Best advise for people is if they're faced with hospitals. Play their game, don't over react . Ride it out. Don't attempt suicide locked up or say you want to die. Be nice and respectful and wait it out.

Do this and you maybe out in 48 hours.

Putting up a fight and claiming you have all these laws to back you up just going to make the staff torment you and you'll fall short. You're not going to talk your way out of this by reading an e book. You're condemning people to suffer in ways not needed.

Well, if you file a complaint with medical authorities, at health ministry or ministry of justice, they won't be laughing. If you are from the USA, Canada or Australia, I can understand you. Things are wild there, but in Europe we have more rights.

Lmao. This is a laughably great post.

Nah, there's no legal squirming to be done. I'm in US and have been involuntary before, they don't need shit to put me there again against my will. My lawyer even told me that- once you've been involuntary once it takes nearly nothing to do it again.

BTW, they automatically give you a pro bono lawyer when you're involuntarily hospitalized. And it's not like they'd let you just walk out to pursue a legal battle… they'd hold you indefinitely while you battled with aid of a lawyer, at which point you're already involuntarily held, so… The lawyer I had certainly wasn't like "here's how to get out of this" it was more "here's all the ways in which they can further massively fuck you and if they pursue that I'll be your defense."

The USA has failed in terms of human rights. It does not respect the right to abortion anymore, let alone the right to suicide.

 

[Quiet Desperation]

No matter how well-intentioned you may be, I am skeptical based on what you have written here that you have been through this yourself. Until you have, and then have successfully prevented yourself from being committed, this strains belief with those of us who have firsthand experience.

If you have, well that's a story I'd like to hear.

 

[lostmylove]

Well, if you file a complaint with medical authorities, at health ministry or ministry of justice, they won't be laughing. If you are from the USA, Canada or Australia, I can understand you. Things are wild there, but in Europe we have more rights.

The USA has failed in terms of human rights. It does not respect the right to abortion anymore, let alone the right to suicide.

I live in Europe. You have no idea what you're on about

 

[hush hush]

I live in Europe. You have no idea what you're on about

The problem is that you need lawyers and courts that are not cheap, but yes there is legal protection and relevant human rights decisions. Did you know that in Germany
suicide is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT, coming from the right to personality?

Criminalisation of assisted suicide services unconstitutional

The general right of personality (Art. 2(1) in conjunction with Art. 1(1) of the Basic Law, Grundgesetz – GG) encompasses a right to a self-determined death. This right includes the freedom to take one’s own life and, as the case may be, resort to assistance provided voluntarily by third parties...

www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de

"The general right of personality (Art. 2(1) in conjunction with Art. 1(1) of the Basic Law, Grundgesetz – GG) encompasses a right to a self-determined death. This right includes the freedom to take one's own life and, as the case may be, resort to assistance provided voluntarily by third parties for this purpose. Where, in the exercise of this right, an individual decides to end their own life, having reached this decision based on how they personally define quality of life and a meaningful existence, their decision must, in principle, be respected by state and society as an act of autonomous self-determination. For these reasons, the Second Senate of the Federal Constitutional Court has held, in a judgment pronounced today, that the prohibition of assisted suicide services set out in § 217 of the Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch – StGB) violates the Basic Law and is void. The Court found that, in practice, the prohibition effectively vitiates any possibility for the individual concerned to resort to assisted suicide. It does not follow from this judgment that the legislator is barred under constitutional law from imposing any rules on suicide assistance. However, when enacting legislative provisions, it has to ensure that sufficient space remains for the individual to exercise their right to a self-determined death and to pursue and carry out the decision to end their life on their own terms".

 

[lostmylove]

The problem is that you need lawyers and courts that are not cheap, but yes there is legal protection and relevant human rights decisions. Did you know that in Germany
suicide is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT, coming from the right to personality?

Criminalisation of assisted suicide services unconstitutional

The general right of personality (Art. 2(1) in conjunction with Art. 1(1) of the Basic Law, Grundgesetz – GG) encompasses a right to a self-determined death. This right includes the freedom to take one’s own life and, as the case may be, resort to assistance provided voluntarily by third parties...

www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de

"The general right of personality (Art. 2(1) in conjunction with Art. 1(1) of the Basic Law, Grundgesetz – GG) encompasses a right to a self-determined death. This right includes the freedom to take one's own life and, as the case may be, resort to assistance provided voluntarily by third parties for this purpose. Where, in the exercise of this right, an individual decides to end their own life, having reached this decision based on how they personally define quality of life and a meaningful existence, their decision must, in principle, be respected by state and society as an act of autonomous self-determination. For these reasons, the Second Senate of the Federal Constitutional Court has held, in a judgment pronounced today, that the prohibition of assisted suicide services set out in § 217 of the Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch – StGB) violates the Basic Law and is void. The Court found that, in practice, the prohibition effectively vitiates any possibility for the individual concerned to resort to assisted suicide. It does not follow from this judgment that the legislator is barred under constitutional law from imposing any rules on suicide assistance. However, when enacting legislative provisions, it has to ensure that sufficient space remains for the individual to exercise their right to a self-determined death and to pursue and carry out the decision to end their life on their own terms".

Yep someone who is suicidal and at the lowest of the low is going to raise enough capital and crowdfund a legal defense to sue an institution who can throw millions at it.

You are extremely delusional and just ranting nonsense.
You are saying suicide is a constitutional right in Germany.


Did you know that in England there is right to bear arms, after the glorious revolution in the 1600's.
Guess what if you tried to walk down the street with a rifle and quote stuff saying it it's human rights you're going to get shot or put in prison.

You are quoting things that have no merit in real world practice. You should go outside

 

[hush hush]

The UK has no written constitution, but yes court and governments are always trying to restrict constitutional right. Countries with monarchy always have stricter gun controls than democratic countries. You have to know the rules and persist. You have to pursue your rights with passion, as you do with your suicide. If you are not passionate about disposing your life, you may sabbotage the attempt and then fail to resist against the psychiatric gestapo. The problem is not your rights, but the corrupt health authorities and judges that refuse to enforce them.

 

[lostmylove]

The UK has no written constitution

What is the Bill of Rights then, Act of Settlement? . Yes Uk has a constitution and constitutional rights.

I'm with you, this is complete bullshit. Anything that begins with "psychiatry is pseudoscience" shoots up giant red flags. This whole line is rubbish…

The OP is promoting dangerous bs to vulnerable people. His intention isn't good, he wants people to be crash dummies for his crackpot theories as he's not brave enough to try his sick delusions out himself.

He can't point of any real world examples of what he's claiming to work, so that's where he wants people on this forum to come in.

 

[Cathy Ames]

The USA has failed in terms of human rights.

I totally agree with this. The U.S. has slipped over the edge into the Failed Democracy category (a separate but related issue from human rights, but that's where my mind went).

 

[hush hush]

What is the Bill of Rights then, Act of Settlement? . Yes Uk has a constitution and constitutional rights.

The OP is promoting dangerous bs to vulnerable people. His intention isn't good, he wants people to be crash dummies for his crackpot theories as he's not brave enough to try his sick delusions out himself.

He can't point of any real world examples of what he's claiming to work, so that's where he wants people on this forum to come in.

Mods think otherwise, yes "vulnerable" people have rights, including the right to decide the time and manner of their death (in Europe), and resist against the psychiatric gestapo that tells them how to live and die, without being able to resolve their problems that lead to suicide (whether material, existential or emotional). You are the one who deprives them of their rights and liberty with your attitude. If they do not stand up for their rights, who will?

 

[lostmylove]

Mods think otherwise, yes "vulnerable" people have rights, including the right to decide the time and manner of their death (in Europe), and resist against the psychiatric gestapo that tells them how to live and die, without being able to resolve their problems that lead to suicide (whether material, existential or emotional). You are the one who deprives them of their rights and liberty with your attitude. If they do not stand up for their rights, who will?

You've just denied that Uk has a constitution yet claim to be advocating for people's rights. Sorry it's very hard to take you seriously

 

[hush hush]

The UK constitution is unwritten as it has never been codified and therefore there are few rights set on stone. Politicians have more freedom to create laws than in other countries, and constitutional court less ability to intervene, since it has never been codified. You can do whatever you want, but personally I would always use any provisions to defend myself against medical despotism and patternalism. Just don't spread any misinformation, bc your right to decide how and when to end your life is protected by the European Convention on Human Rights, as long as you have the capacity to decide for yourself. The only danger to autonomy is the fact that many "mental illnesses" cannot be located in your brain and blood, so psychiatrists can label you whatever they want (dangerous, etc.), to strip your rights and liberty, and protect themselves from legal action in case you die from suicide.
I have provided link and evidence, yet you are only personally attacking me. I am here for those who want to listen with an open mind, as I my arguments come from pro-choice suicide organizations and their legal research. People are "vulnerable" when they do not know their rights, and are subject to powerful forces, as psychiatrists that have enough power to "cure" people, have enough power to be authoritarian despots and imprisoners.

 

[lostmylove]

The UK constitution is unwritten as it has never been codified and therefore there are few rights set on stone. Politicians have more freedom to create laws than in other countries, and constitutional court less ability to intervene, since it has never been codified. You can do whatever you want, but personally I would always use any provisions to defend myself against medical despotism and patternalism. Just don't spread any misinformation, bc your right to decide how and when to end your life is protected by the European Convention on Human Rights, as long as you have the capacity to decide for yourself. The only danger to autonomy is the fact that many "mental illnesses" cannot be located in your brain and blood, so psychiatrists can label you whatever they want (dangerous, etc.), to strip your rights and liberty, and protect themselves from legal action in case you die from suicide.
I have provided link and evidence, yet you are only personally attacking me. I am here for those who want to listen with an open mind, as I my arguments come from pro-choice suicide organizations and their legal research. People are "vulnerable" when they do not know their rights, and are subject to powerful forces, as psychiatrists that have enough power to "cure" people, have enough power to be authoritarian despots and imprisoners.

You are dangerous. You haven't provided any evidence that is relevant to our issues people face on here.

Show me real world examples of what you are clamming, not paperwork.

If the Uk constitution isn't written down what was the written after the glorious revolution, a shopping list? You are dumb as rocks and a proven liar.

 

[newave3]

I don't know what this thread is about, so I will leave you with this.

 

[Glowarm]

In my experience, you can say what you want but if a psychiatrist tells authorities that you 'are an imminent threat to yourself and/or others', then they have all the legal authority that they need to hold you for 48-72 hours for observation.

You can protest and file complaints. And in some cases they will be successful. But more often it will be seen as a person trying to get revenge on those that locked them up. When a review board sees someone complaining, they will look at the case file. If there was no negligence then the complaint is tossed out. The psychiatrist did their job and did it, according to social norms, satisfactory. Whereas we see something wrong, the hospital sees no error in locking someone up for their own good. They are looking at it as helpful so the complaint often just gets tossed.
In my opinion, I agree with those above that said to just play along, play the game, say you're not suicidal, give all the right answers that they want to hear and then move on.

 

[Cathy Ames]

I don't know what this thread is about, so I will leave you with this.View attachment 92455

I will be stealing this, thanks!

 

[Judy Garland]

The USA has failed in terms of human rights. It does not respect the right to abortion anymore, let alone the right to suicide.

What the hell are you talking about? You can go into any planned parenthood and get an abortion here in the US. *Shaking my head*

 

[hush hush]

What the hell are you talking about? You can go into any planned parenthood and get an abortion here in the US. *Shaking my head*

Haven't you heard that the Supreme Court may reverse the constitutional right to abortion. Also, psychiatrists in the USA are much more aggressive in terms of involuntary hospitalization (preventative detention) than in Europe, due to fear of lawsuits and institutional greed.

 

[Al Cappella]

Also, psychiatrists in the USA are much more aggressive in terms of involuntary hospitalization (preventative detention) than in Europe, due to fear of lawsuits and institutional greed.

Yes, this is sadly true. They run around American neighborhoods with giant butterfly nets, snatching anyone they can. If only there a superhero of some kind—preferably not wearing spandex—who knows how to vanquish psychiatrists!

 

[hush hush]

Yes, this is sadly true. They run around American neighborhoods with giant butterfly nets, snatching anyone they can. If only there a superhero of some kind—preferably not wearing spandex—who knows how to vanquish psychiatrists!

Prof. Thomas Szasz (Psychiatrist) is unfortunately dead. He was a superherero. Thankfully, his friend Prof. Jeffrey Schaler is still alive and active in Citizens Comission of Human Rights
Our new heroes are here and Founded The Council of Critical Psychiatry, but they are not as potent as Prof. Thomas Szasz. http://cepuk.org/
They provide only resources, but do not assist in individual cases, unlike Citizens Comission of Human Rights that gets people out of psychiatric prisons.
You can contact Citizens Comission on Human Rights: https://www.cchr.org/take-action/report-psychiatric-abuse.html
Contact your local branch as well: https://www.cchr.org/global-locator.html

 

[OctoberDusk]

I don't know what this thread is about, so I will leave you with this.View attachment 92455

I am kind of disturbed by how closely this resembles my childhood photos, except for the dog hair. I think my glasses were thicker, though.

As for the topic, my plan should I face such a dilemma is to ask to make a call so I can cancel my health insurance. I'm in the US. I don't know if that would work, but in the past (pre-Obamacare and working as a contractor) I learned no one's much interested in treating you if you're not insured, even with a severely broken leg.

 

[Al Cappella]

Our new heroes are here and Founded The Council of Critical Psychiatry, but they are not as potent as Prof. Thomas Szasz. http://cepuk.org/

So, let me see if I have this straight: after you pimp a link that says psychiatry is a pseudoscience you list your heroes as a Council of Critical Psychiatry, but go on to say they're not as potent as a dead guy. Got it.

 

[Eternaloblivionplea]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3843011/
NCBI 21st century letter to psychiatry resident.
Critique of psychiatry from a psychiatrist. This was my wildcard used successfully to prevent involuntary hospitalisation.

 

[chocolatebar]

I'm not from any of the mentioned countries, but, in my experience, it was as simple as telling all the health professionals that trying to kill myself was a mistake and I wouldn't try again, but look for help instead. I even mentioned that, if hospitalized, I would become seriously suicidal and that I was safer at home.

The last part wasn't even a lie.

 

[Pain In The Ass]

I worked in a hospital of this type until quite recently. There was a woman in there at one point who had been sectioned against her will, a doctor herself. She managed to convince the psychiatrist to allow her to walk into town on her own for an hour, and during this walk, she jumped from a train bridge into the path of a passing train, and died. I do wonder if she would've carried out this act of desperation if she hadn't been pressured and backed against her will into a corner, with, in her mind, only one way out. I also wonder if the psychiatrist lost any sleep over this in the slightest!

 

[hush hush]

Lmao. This is a laughably great post.

Nah, there's no legal squirming to be done. I'm in US and have been involuntary before, they don't need shit to put me there again against my will. My lawyer even told me that- once you've been involuntary once it takes nearly nothing to do it again.

BTW, they automatically give you a pro bono lawyer when you're involuntarily hospitalized. And it's not like they'd let you just walk out to pursue a legal battle… they'd hold you indefinitely while you battled with aid of a lawyer, at which point you're already involuntarily held, so… The lawyer I had certainly wasn't like "here's how to get out of this" it was more "here's all the ways in which they can further massively fuck you and if they pursue that I'll be your defense."

It's clear that psychiatrists in the USA are extremely aggressive in hospitalizing people to get insurance money and avoid legal liability. Watch this documentary and resources. Hand them over to your lawyer and quote them in court. If this information was untrue, these sources would be sued for every penny they had, but they are sadly at least partially true. Laughably, both resources are written based on opinions and testimonies of mental health professionals from the UK and USA.

Diagnostic & Statistical Manual: Psychiatry’s Deadliest Scam

It’s psychiatry’s best-selling catalog of mental illness — nearly a thousand pages long and covering everything from depression and anxiety to stuttering, cigarette addiction, fear of spiders, nightmares, problems with math and even disorder of infancy — all reinterpreted and labeled as a brain...

www.cchr.org

Psychiatry as Pseudoscience

It is customary to define psychiatry as a medical specialty concerned with the study, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illnesses. This is a worthless and misleading definition. Mental illness is …

antilogicalism.com

 

[its-about-time]

It's clear that psychiatrists in the USA are extremely aggressive in hospitalizing people to get insurance money and avoid legal liability. Watch this documentary and resources. Hand them over to your lawyer and quote them in court. If this information was untrue, these sources would be sued for every penny they had, but they are sadly at least partially true. Laughably, both resources are written based on opinions and testimonies of mental health professionals from the UK and USA.

Diagnostic & Statistical Manual: Psychiatry’s Deadliest Scam

It’s psychiatry’s best-selling catalog of mental illness — nearly a thousand pages long and covering everything from depression and anxiety to stuttering, cigarette addiction, fear of spiders, nightmares, problems with math and even disorder of infancy — all reinterpreted and labeled as a brain...

www.cchr.org

Psychiatry as Pseudoscience

It is customary to define psychiatry as a medical specialty concerned with the study, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illnesses. This is a worthless and misleading definition. Mental illness is …

antilogicalism.com

Okay next time I get involuntarily hospitalized you bet your ass I'm gonna pursue a legal battle based on the "mental illness doesn't actually exist" argument, not because I don't believe I'll get absolutely laughed out of court, but because that sounds like an epic and hilarious way to spend my energy and I'm totally all about that. I'm serious. I'm into this plan.

 

[hush hush]

Okay next time I get involuntarily hospitalized you bet your ass I'm gonna pursue a legal battle based on the "mental illness doesn't actually exist" argument, not because I don't believe I'll get absolutely laughed out of court, but because that sounds like an epic and hilarious way to spend my energy and I'm totally all about that. I'm serious. I'm into this plan.

In order to cure a disease, you have to identify a physical lession and use appropriate means to correct that lession.
This is a life-saving document, written by some of the best academics in the field of psychiatry (contained in the article), so it is a weapon you can use (just download it and save it).

https://antilogicalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/unrecognized-facts-psych.pdf

It comes from: http://cepuk.org/