I'm convinced that when I die I'm just going to come back here.

[Wayfaerer]

@worried_to_death I believe Stephen Hawking believed in an eternal universe unless I am mistaken. I think perhaps the biggest hangup that we have is what came before the big bang. It seems preposterous (but not necessarily false) that there was absolutely nothing at all before the big bang. Do you really think existence itself is only 13.4 billion years old? That's a trinket amount of time at the scale we're talking about.

Would your thoughts be based on the Hindu, Buddhist religion by any chance? I'm an atheist myself so I don't have a reasonable expectation nor evidence to support the fact that I would come back here once I'm dead. Of course, this isn't claiming that it isn't true, just that I don't have an reasonable expectation nor sufficient evidence to believe otherwise.

we're talking about the possibility of Eternal Recurrence, not traditional reincarnation. The former has some very grim implications.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

It seems preposterous (but not necessarily false) that there was absolutely nothing at all before the big bang. Do you really think existence itself is only 13.4 billion years old? That's a trinket amount of time at the scale we're talking about.

Yes, I agree that intuitively it seems there must have been something...But I have no idea what the nature of that thing could be. A higher dimension(s)/God (whatever 'God' means)/multiverse/something that we cannot even imagine...who really knows.
This universe could be a holographic program created by a higher intelligence in a higher dimension. This would explain why everything seems to be reducible to mathematics. The further down you go, the more things just seem to reduce to non-physical information and ideas...

"the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language" Heisenberg

But it seems hard to understand how information, mathematics etc could just always have existed eternally without any reason or cause.

Eternity is a nightmare however you look at it. Because ultimately eternity cannot have a cause to it, therefore it cannot have a reason to it. It just is. That is terrifying.

"The eternal silence of these infinite spaces terrifies me" Pascal

 

[Wayfaerer]

Yes, I agree that intuitively it seems there must have been something...But I have no idea what the nature of that thing could be. A higher dimension(s)/God (whatever 'God' means)/multiverse/something that we cannot even imagine...who really knows.
This universe could be a holographic program created by a higher intelligence in a higher dimension. This would explain why everything seems to be reducible to mathematics. The further down you go, the more things just seem to reduce to non-physical information and ideas...

"the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense; they are forms, ideas which can be expressed unambiguously only in mathematical language" Heisenberg

I have never been more afraid of not knowing than now. I can't even stomach the thought of doing all of this over again endlessly... That would be a horrific nightmare if it were to be true. The "but it only feels like once" doesn't matter, either. If I were to take someone to a torture dungeon and put them on the back-breaker for let's say, 18 hours but at the end they were given a new body and had their memories wiped, then the next day they had to go through the same torture again from early morning to midnight. Let's say this were to go on for the remainder of eternity. do you think it feeling like only once would matter? I certainly think not. Nietzsche called it the "heaviest burden" for good reason because it IS the heaviest of all burdens!

It's very strange how everything boils down to information. If there was truly nothing then that would necessarily include information as well. From whenceforth did information come? Even if we were in an alien simulation, even that wouldn't make us safe. Did they really need to program us with sentience? Like, was that really fucking necessary?

 

[Blackpoolbootz]

Just imagine comming back as another person, so that you live the life of everyone that has been and will be. So really their is just one person on the planet you just live their lives at another point ultimate karma (if that makes sense).

 

[Wayfaerer]

Anyway, the future "you" isn't "you" any more than the past "yous" were... it's just an identical copy, a Xerox (and probably every variation thereof). It isn't "you", personally reliving it. It's a "new you copy" who feels like they're doing it for the first time.

So, what you're saying is that in past and future iterations of the universe in which I exist in, there were "other people" living my life? I am only "me" in this one? That just begs the question, why am I "me" in this iteration? If you were to recreate my body at the same point in time, then why not my consciousness? how did "I" come to exist in the first place? Identity is mere illusion yet it feels so real.

Just imagine comming back as another person, so that you live the life of everyone that has been and will be. So really their is just one person on the planet you just live their lives at another point ultimate karma (if that makes sense).

Fun idea but it's pure religion.

 

[RedDEE]

So, what you're saying is that in past and future iterations of the universe in which I exist in, there were "other people" living my life? I am only "me" in this one? That just begs the question, why am I "me" in this iteration? If you were to recreated my body at the same point in time, then why my consciousness? how did "I" come to exist in the first place? Identity is mere illusion yet it feels so real.

That's a good fucking question, bro. I don't know the answer. Our identity is illusion, but feels real. Our pain, and heartache - illusion. How the FUCK?!

 

[ExitStageLeft]

I'm convinced that, if the universe is cyclical, and an universe arbitrarily identical to this one exists in the future such that a body arbitrarily identical to yours should exist in the future, I see no reason to believe that it wouldn't be "you" in the sense of possessing "your" sensory inputs and such. I think, in other words, that "you" would see, hear, feel, taste, etc. again, even though there would be no chain of memories linking you to any past iteration.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

If you were to recreate my body at the same point in time, then why not my consciousness

This really gets to the crux of it. How exactly consciousness and the impression of being a self are related to specific neurological connections and electrical impulses.
It's the hard problem of consciousness.

Consciousness could all come down to information, in which case it could be instantiated in different material systems..it could be 'downloaded'.

It's like, if you were to take a clock apart at time1, then put all the same bits back together in exactly the same way at time2, you would appear to have the same clock again.
Would this also be the case if all the chemicals and cells and atoms in a human body were separated and then brought back together again at a later point in time?You would appear to have the same body, yes, but the same self/consciousness? Possibly.

The thing is, we don't know enough about consciousness, the quantum world, the nature of time or the ultimate structure of reality to have any certainty about what it could possibly say or imply about the meaning of existence.

I'm convinced that, if the universe is cyclical, and an universe arbitrarily identical to this one exists in the future such that a body arbitrarily identical to yours should exist in the future, I see no reason to believe that it wouldn't be "you" in the sense of possessing "your" sensory inputs and such. I think, in other words, that "you" would see, hear, feel, taste, etc. again, even though there would be no chain of memories linking you to any past iteration.

But you also think free will can fit into this picture, and surely free will is somehow connected to consciousness...but on this picture conscious states are totally determined by brain states...

 

[ExitStageLeft]

I don't think that there's any such thing as free will. But if the universe returns to an arbitrarily identical state (A) enough times, such that it includes you, it follows that it might well return to identical states which are identical in every respect except for your own actions (A+1, A+2, etc.).

 

[Wayfaerer]

I don't think that there's any such thing as free will. But if the universe returns to an arbitrarily identical state (A) enough times, such that it includes you, it follows that it might well return to identical states which are identical in every respect except for your own actions (A+1, A+2, etc.).

If a universe is exactly identical enough for you to exist in, it would necessarily follow that you would continue in the exact same direction forward. In this instance, free will is an illusion. Free will would complicate that if it were to be hypothetically true, but if free will were to exist, the odds of an exactly identical universe for you to have been born in would be basically impossible (although technically non-zero.)

If the big bang happened once, why not twice, or thrice, or...

I think the universe coming from pure nothingness and dying into pure nothingness is optimistic, but I am not known for my optimism. Now that I have a grasp on the concept of an eternal universe, I think that is more intuitive. Pure nothingness is what I had expected for the longest time but it sounds like magical thinking to me now. Of course, I am no expert and this is only my ordinary pleb opinion.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

"I don't think that there's any such thing as free will. But if the universe returns to an arbitrarily identical state (A) enough times, such that it includes you, it follows that it might well return to identical states which are identical in every respect except for your own actions (A+1, A+2, etc.). "

There doesn't seem to be a contradiction in this.
But would the universes where it's A+2 or A+3, etc still include 'you' (subjective conscious identity) or would it be more like a slightly different version in a parallel universe?
Or do you think that even if the eternal recurrence depends on parallel universes, 'we' would still experience them as 'us' in all those universes where A+2, A+3 etc?

 

[RedDEE]

Think about this. If I throw a cheeseburger into a portal in Universe A, will it enter a time warp and cause a paradox in Universe B. Or will that cause a Casual Loop?

 

[Wayfaerer]

Think about this. If I throw a cheeseburger into a portal in Universe A, will it enter a time warp and cause a paradox in Universe B. Or will that cause a Casual Loop?

There'd be no paradox, as there would be a cause (cheeseburger through from Universe A into Universe B.)

 

[RedDEE]

There'd be no paradox, as there would be a cause (cheeseburger through from Universe A into Universe B.)

Thanks, that one was really giving me a headache.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Thanks, that one was really giving me a headache.

Did I understand the question correctly? Are you talking portals a la Valve's Portal? The cause would occur outside Universe B but that wouldn't matter so long as there was a direct cause and it happened somewhere. If we had portals like this, you could think of Universes A and B being conjoined at the hip where the portals are. Throwing an object like a cheeseburger into another universe might cause interesting side-effects though (maybe.)

 

[RedDEE]

Did I understand the question correctly? Are you talking portals a la Valve's Portal? The cause would occur outside Universe B but that wouldn't matter so long as there was a direct cause and it happened somewhere. Throwing an object like a cheeseburger into another universe might cause interesting side-effects though.

Speaking of Valve's portal, watch this shit - this is the most awesome thing ever if you're interested in portal physics,

 

[Wayfaerer]

@RedDEE never seen that one before. Kind of reminds me of those mirrors they have at the barbershops, they gave me the creeps as a kid.

If those portals were to exist in reality, I would assume whoever was trapped in it would be crushed to death by their own body?

 

[RedDEE]

If those portals were to exist in reality, I would assume whoever was trapped in it would be crushed to death by their own body?

Absolutely.. but if somebody's mind was trapped in there..

 

[Blackpoolbootz]

So, what you're saying is that in past and future iterations of the universe in which I exist in, there were "other people" living my life? I am only "me" in this one? That just begs the question, why am I "me" in this iteration? If you were to recreate my body at the same point in time, then why not my consciousness? how did "I" come to exist in the first place? Identity is mere illusion yet it feels so real.


Fun idea but it's pure religion.

Glad you got it. Think I had taken a double dose of my meds that day.

 

[Spitfire]

This idea contains a fallacy. Because every possible choice you make is infinite. You can make an infinite number of different possible choices. How can every possible choice be made by 'coming back' if it requires an infinte amount of time to achieve it? If you keep dieing and coming back, and making choices, every possible choice cannot be made. Because you'll be doing it forever, so the task will never be completed.

This idea the way in which it was written is a near exact depiction of a few visions I have had in the past.

It would not be easy to explain based on the experience of seeing something too strange. It is a real 'Funky Town', infinity. Soo many choices and outcomes left to go...

I admit living with a diseased state brain having an overabundance of the trace element copper deposited throughout; delusions, hallucinations, and personality abnormalities.. a reality much unlike I would have thought is happening.

I do not fully trust my thoughts on the subjects, at least not as much as I would want to be able and do.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

diseased state brain having an overabundance of the trace element copper deposited throughout

how did that happen?

 

[Spitfire]

I inherited the disorder. A single protein is missing in my make-up, and my body is unable to rid itself of any copper intake I have had since birth. So, it was a slow burn or build-up to get to this point.

I am still trying to put the pieces together for trying to fully realize the visions I had about the matter, of making all of the choices forever and ever, and ever... It is not easy. These visions were over 18 months ago I had them, and they have started to become too blurry.

There were flash-backs of certain points in my life showing 'sparks' in time, where the divergence happens. Except, the divergence I think actually happens at every level, during every broken down moment, each moment of time (to even have a thought) diverges itself 'un-to' the next, which does the same for the next, etc...

Some choices spin down into a reality-existence so horrifying (at least to my mind), where things get STUCK! It goes on and on forever stuck in this way. This is a premise I cannot explain? While a billion times a billion-other realities go on breaking off to further advance funky town, why some of them get stuck?

If the cycle spins down (or up.. depending), the sight of this may be available for other beings to take notice.

Maybe I am rambling? In fact, I know I am, but the visions were really experienced, and they were strikingly clear to me at the time.

A stuck version can.. and may self destruct.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

How about this as a refutation:

Eternal recurrence based on endless big bangs could not happen because no atoms can survive the quantum chaos of a big bang.

If eternal recurrence requires identical atoms and particles, then the best that could happen is that similar but not identical ones could occur in new big bangs, in which case there would only be duplicate recurrences of universes.

We have no way of knowing if the very same atoms of this universe could survive 'into' a new big bang, or if new particles are required for every big bang.

This might seem to violate the first law of thermodynamics, but when it comes to big bangs and the true nature of time, space, energy and inter-universe relationships,, our laws might be incomplete or wrong.

 

[Wayfaerer]

How about this as a refutation:

Eternal recurrence based on endless big bangs could not happen because no atoms can survive the quantum chaos of a big bang.

If eternal recurrence requires identical atoms and particles, then the best that could happen is that similar but not identical ones could occur in new big bangs, in which case there would only be duplicate recurrences of universes.

We have no way of knowing if the very same atoms of this universe could survive 'into' a new big bang, or if new particles are required for every big bang.

This might seem to violate the first law of thermodynamics, but when it comes to big bangs and the true nature of time, space, energy and inter-universe relationships,, our laws might be incomplete or wrong.

Matter does not carry over between universes, they are created from scratch at the beginning of the big bang. Consider the short distances involved at the time of the big bang. The smaller the volume, the lesser the complexity for starting conditions. There are less iterations possible when you consider that at the beginning of the big bang, it was around the six of a tennis ball.

Consider this (based purely off intuition I admit), which do you think would reach recurrence faster, a 10 cm^3 box full of gas or a 10 m^3 of gas? Remember that the starting conditions are the only things that matter, everything after that is like watching dominoes fall.

It does not matter one bit how many iterations it takes to recur back to an identical universe as this, it could be 10, or 1000, or 100000000, or 10^10^10^10^1.2 iterations. To us, it would feel like 1.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

It's interesting that the Stoics and Alexander of Aphrodisias (an aristotelian) had a similar disagreement about the survival of the self through recurrence.

The Stoics believed in an exact repetition of history after an infinite number of conflagrations.
Alexander said that you could not have numerically the same person even if the exact same matter was reassembled.
They would be numerically distinct, and therefore not the same person.
The interruption or interval would prevent it from being the same individual form (eidos, atomon, in Aristotle's use of the term), of the person.

"What is numerically one and the same cannot be intermittent. For it attains to being numerically one and the same not by being made of the same things, but by persisting (diamenein) as the same thing both earlier and later...the individual form does not remain even if the matter does." Alexander of aphrodisias

 

[Wayfaerer]

It's interesting that the Stoics and Alexander of Aphrodisias (an aristotelian) had a similar disagreement about the survival of the self through recurrence.

The Stoics believed in an exact repetition of history after an infinite number of conflagrations.
Alexander said that you could not have numerically the same person even if the exact same matter was reassembled.
They would be numerically distince, and therefore not the same person.
The interruption or interval would prevent it from being the same individual form (eidos, atomon, in Aristotle's use of the term), of the person.

"What is numerically one and the same cannot be intermittent. For it attains to being numerically one and the same not by being made of the same things, but by persisting (diamenein) as the same thing both earlier and later...the individual form does not remain even if the matter does." Alexander of aphrodisias

It's incredible how smart those greeks were. If our subjective consciousness does not carry over between universes, that would imply that someone else would be living our lives, which I think is not the case as that wouldn't make sense. If it is "someone else," then why couldn't it also be "me" again?

 

[Jellyfish42]

I have a wishy washy theory on reincarnation:

1. you die and are buried into the ground
2. You decompose over time and add nutrients back into the soil
3. A plant will be planted nearby and will use those nutrients to grow
4. Anything that eats the plant will have a part of you inside it (say the plant was an apple tree, you would be inside one of the apples)
5. Say someone ate the apple off that tree will now have a part of you inside them
6. When that person reproduces you get transfered into their child
7. Reincarnation

 

[RedDEE]

It's incredible how smart those greeks were.

It's amazing how smart you geeks are!

 

[Superdeterminist]

I swear, if we ever learn that our reality is a simulation created by higher intelligence, I'll make it my mission to kill those bastards, however futile that might be.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I swear, if we ever learn that our reality is a simulation created by higher intelligence, I'll make it my mission to kill those bastards, however futile that might be.

The terrifying thing is, is that if we are sentient, simulated beings, then we are completely at their mercy. Seeing how they had no ethical qualms of generating this cesspit, I wouldn't have much faith that they would show any to us. Maybe life is a side-effect of what they were trying to simulate and they don't even know that we exist. That'd be the most amusing scenario!