If you want to ruin your own evening, see what the Reddit experts have to say about the rationality and your right to suicide

[Lostnotfound]

expensive and very bureaucratic, for the price

Yeah but dignified and definite. Not for me though

 

[oopswronglife]

If they were 12-14 yos it wouldn't bother me as much but these are grown ass, educated middle and upper middle class people. And even if they were all in their mid twenties do you really think most of them will change their opinions in the future?

I hear you. I don't think ANY of them will change their views until it affects them directly, and even then some will deny it. I guess I poorly made the point that a huge part of the audience there are literal children and its pointless to argue with them, but you are right same goes for the adults. Thus why bother unless you just want to be more angry.

 

[Worthless_nobody]

so again this is what I am told by MH and not necessarily believing ... depression is an unbalanced chemical reaction in the brain so the anti depressant pills are necessary to rebalance those chemicals. There does not need to be a reason it is just like a malfunction that needs adjustment to put right. I was told to think of a car which has components that malfunction (wear and tear) and just need a tweak to put right again ... this is the brain, it needs a tweak in the form of a chemical to put it right again. So MH say if I sort out these rogue chemicals by taking antidepressants i will feel better and not want to ctb.

Personally i think they talk a load of shit but I'm not medically trained

As a young teen I was fed the lie that antidepressants would cure me and it was just a chemical imbalance when my depression was really just a normal reaction to my terrible situation. I went thru a brief period in life from about 18-22 when things were tolerable for me and due to situation improving I wasn't in severe depression. For me the antidepressants did nothing because they didn't solve my shit life situation...all they did is cause cognitive impairment. It's really a shame drs push these pills on people without taking side effects and life situations into account.

 

[Lostnotfound]

As a young teen I was fed the lie that antidepressants would cure me and it was just a chemical imbalance when my depression was really just a normal reaction to my terrible situation. I went thru a brief period in life from about 18-22 when things were tolerable for me and due to situation improving I wasn't in severe depression. For me the antidepressants did nothing because they didn't solve my shit life situation...all they did is cause cognitive impairment. It's really a shame drs push these pills on people without taking side effects and life situations into account.

I refused to take them ... your phrase shit life situation is my problem, not mental health

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I hear you. I don't think ANY of them will change their views until it affects them directly, and even then some will deny it. I guess I poorly made the point that a huge part of the audience there are literal children and its pointless to argue with them, but you are right same goes for the adults. Thus why bother unless you just want to be more angry.

Yes okay I see what you were saying.

Also this is an issue I have thought about a lot since becoming suicidal and changing many of my political views and leanings in the process: can we ever understand something rationally without having the underlying feelings first? Most of us it seems when we are thinking are more or less rationalizing our felt experience; people who have never experienced being ostracized for example won't likely admit it is a serious issue and people who haven't suffered as much as most people on this forum won't be able to see suicide as a possible rational decision; so to them, it really seems irrational and it doesn't make sense. How can we ever make someone understand these things without putting them through the unpleasant experiences first?

 

[oopswronglife]

How can we ever make someone understand these things without putting them through the unpleasant experiences first?

It's all about empathy. I can understand a lot without having had to suffer it. I might not know what it feels like but I can understand what people are saying about what it feels like and not dismiss that. Most people will take that info and use it to protect their OWN feelings by blaming the victim or making excuses so they feel smarter, better, safer. It takes empathy and compassion to accept another's suffering. Most aren't willing.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

It's all about empathy. I can understand a lot without having had to suffer it. I might not know what it feels like but I can understand what people are saying about what it feels like and not dismiss that. Most people will take that info and use it to protect their OWN feelings by blaming the victim or making excuses so they feel smarter, better, safer. It takes empathy and compassion to accept another's suffering. Most aren't willing.

maybe it takes having suffered to be able to empathize with other's suffering?
not being willing isn't their fault though. I think we just have to throw these perspectives and arguments out there until something sticks; its our obligation to speak up for these issues. Slaves managed it, women managed it, gay people managed it, I think we can do it as well.

 

[Indieblue]

I asked this on the chat but no one answered ... MH in my area (who seem pretty useless to be fair) cling to the theory that its the depression that makes us want to ctb. They say if I take the pills to cure the depression (antidepressants which I have refused to take) then I wont have suicidal ideation any more. Is there any evidence to this theory or is it just more text book crap! Yes I feel depressed but I feel sane enough to make a decision. I dont feel my brain is clouded or anything.

If anti depressants are supposed to cure my sucidal ideation, it didn't do a good job.

 

[oopswronglife]

maybe it takes having suffered to be able to empathize with other's suffering?

I don't think so. I've known people with amazing lives and no real problems who were very caring and understanding. I think it's just more evidence that people mostly only care about themselves and unless forced to consider something for their own benefit they will refuse. Even then a lot of victims are still shitty people who care because it affects THEM but still blame and attack others.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I don't think so. I've known people with amazing lives and no real problems who were very caring and understanding. I think it's just more evidence that people mostly only care about themselves and unless forced to consider something for their own benefit they will refuse. Even then a lot of victims are still shitty people who care because it affects THEM but still blame and attack others.

Thanks for your perspective

 

[Lostnotfound]

It's all about empathy. I can understand a lot without having had to suffer it. I might not know what it feels like but I can understand what people are saying about what it feels like and not dismiss that. Most people will take that info and use it to protect their OWN feelings by blaming the victim or making excuses so they feel smarter, better, safer. It takes empathy and compassion to accept another's suffering. Most aren't willing.

I think people have different degrees of empathy and I dont think empathy can ever compare to experience. I never understood depression or anxiety until I got it although I am an empathetic (is that the word) person and could empathise

 

[Inferdan]

Some intriguing excerpts:

"I already replied to someone else about this. Depression is inhibiting the person's ability to make informed consent. They are not in a state where they can understand the consequences of killing themselves. Death is a solution to their depression sure, but it is an ultimate choice. There are alternatives to curing depression that does not require killing oneself. That is the only reasoning. They are in a state where they cannot fully understand the consequences of death. It would be unethical to let someone with a massive head injury make life altering decisions, the same goes for depression.

Suicide is ethical if the person is in a medically clear state of mind, where they understand the situation entirely and are able to make decisions based off of the information they have (informed consent). A case of this would be someone suffering from stage 4 cancer, terminally ill and knowing that full well they will die in tremendous amounts of pain. "


"It is unethical to let someone commit suicide due to depression. That is exactly what I am saying. Someone suffering from depression is clearly not in a state where they can make a choice like killing themselves. Death is an extreme consequence. Depression has solutions, it would be unethical to allow someone to kill themselves without first helping them find treatment options which could ultimately lead to a cure. "


First and foremost I believe if we were meant to live our primary purpose is to survive. There are many distractions that might convince one that they are miserable, but this is only misunderstanding. Helping someone end their lives in a hope to end suffering is in no way helping them. The only way to help is to encourage them to understand their suffering and overcome, as we all must do."


"That taboo is sometimes the one thing stopping people from killing themselves and forcing them through their situation until they realize that things do get better."

" vs just wanting to die because you are having financial troubles."

"Unless you are terminally ill and sentenced to a miserable and slow death, it is *objectively impossible* for elective suicide to be a rational decision. I think it is sensible for society to intervene on such a person's behalf." (!!!!!!)

Of course they wouldn't know how it feels. It takes one to know one.

 

[palatinus]

I dated a woman with Reddit as a major hobby. I should've known then and there that it wouldn't work out.

 

[ithappens]

It's funny how depression and other mental illnesses apparently make me so illogical that I cannot possibly give informed consent and "am not in the right state of mind"/have impaired judgement, but I still have to take care of myself on the daily with no help despite this supposed lack of capability. I am also 100% allowed and able to take out loans (my student loans for example), sign contracts, etc. Weird how when it benefits someone else at my own loss it's fully encouraged, but when it benefits me and no one else I'm "irrational" and "need to have decisions made for me".

 

[a.n.kirillov]

professional griefers.

Btw what's a "professional griefer"

I dated a woman with Reddit as a major hobby. I should've known then and there that it wouldn't work out.

Lol! what happened

 

[TimeToBiteTheDust]

Those people that want to prevent suicide don't understand and probably will never know what it feels like to wake up everyday for months or years wishing you were dead.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

It's funny how depression and other mental illnesses apparently make me so illogical that I cannot possibly give informed consent and "am not in the right state of mind"/have impaired judgement, but I still have to take care of myself on the daily with no help despite this supposed lack of capability. I am also 100% allowed and able to take out loans (my student loans for example), sign contracts, etc. Weird how when it benefits someone else at my own loss it's fully encouraged, but when it benefits me and no one else I'm "irrational" and "need to have decisions made for me".

Exactly well you could try defaulting your loans retrospectively by claiming you had depression when you took them out but now you're fine.

Those people that want to prevent suicide don't understand and probably will never know what it feels like to wake up everyday for months or years wishing you were dead.

Well who knows. My grandpa lived life pretty satisfied and then at the onset of his dementia went straight to trying to hang himself.

I like conversing with old people because they aren't that invested in life anymore and both of my grandmothers have admitted they think life sucks and they wouldn't mind dying in their sleep very casually.

But yes years of wishing they were dead won't await most people in their lifetime.

 

[SuicidalDream]

Watching this thread so I can find that Reddit link if I ever need more motivation to ctb.

 

[oopswronglife]

Btw what's a "professional griefer"

A troll essentially. Someone who gets off on causing stress and pain and who incites arguments and drama for entertainment and self satisfaction..or even now I guess it could also apply quite literally to someone doing it "professionally" because of troll farms and the like...but I was meaning in the old definition.

 

[TAW122]

Some intriguing excerpts:

"I already replied to someone else about this. Depression is inhibiting the person's ability to make informed consent. They are not in a state where they can understand the consequences of killing themselves. Death is a solution to their depression sure, but it is an ultimate choice. There are alternatives to curing depression that does not require killing oneself. That is the only reasoning. They are in a state where they cannot fully understand the consequences of death. It would be unethical to let someone with a massive head injury make life altering decisions, the same goes for depression.

Suicide is ethical if the person is in a medically clear state of mind, where they understand the situation entirely and are able to make decisions based off of the information they have (informed consent). A case of this would be someone suffering from stage 4 cancer, terminally ill and knowing that full well they will die in tremendous amounts of pain. "


"It is unethical to let someone commit suicide due to depression. That is exactly what I am saying. Someone suffering from depression is clearly not in a state where they can make a choice like killing themselves. Death is an extreme consequence. Depression has solutions, it would be unethical to allow someone to kill themselves without first helping them find treatment options which could ultimately lead to a cure. "


First and foremost I believe if we were meant to live our primary purpose is to survive. There are many distractions that might convince one that they are miserable, but this is only misunderstanding. Helping someone end their lives in a hope to end suffering is in no way helping them. The only way to help is to encourage them to understand their suffering and overcome, as we all must do."


"That taboo is sometimes the one thing stopping people from killing themselves and forcing them through their situation until they realize that things do get better."

" vs just wanting to die because you are having financial troubles."

"Unless you are terminally ill and sentenced to a miserable and slow death, it is *objectively impossible* for elective suicide to be a rational decision. I think it is sensible for society to intervene on such a person's behalf." (!!!!!!)

These pro-lifers especially the one about how depressed people cannot make rational decisions and the last one granting society permission to intervene and gatekeep makes my blood boil! This is pure rage fuel. These pro-lifers are arrogant, naive, presumptuous, and just plain evil. Sometimes I fantasize about messing with them then CTB'ing to spite them if or should they ever stop me from carrying out my decision (to CTB).

A few days ago in a conversation about pro life stickers on a bridge I got really heated up and this is exactly why: this is what we are up against. Self righteous, patronizing, mad people who want to take away your freedoms and completely devalue your opinions and perceptions about the world by calling you irrational! Sorry, we have to lock you up since no rational person could ever find this beautiful, beautiful best of all worlds depressing or hopeless! There clearly is something wrong with YOU and your perceptions and we will help you, whether you like it or not, we I'll electrocute and drug you until your just as glib and deluded about reality as we are!

Are you referring to the thread I made about vandals tearing down notes of hope? Also, yeah I despise those virtue signaling, goody-two shoes bastards.

Oh and when I have more time (after getting some stuff IRL sorted), I'll be making a thread about how pro-lifers are hypocrites when it comes to respecting other kinds of rights and freedoms while ignoring the one fundamental right, which is the right to die. Also, how they are intellectually dishonest and just inconsistent.

 

[Final Escape]

Reddit is strict, u can get banned so easily. I posted under an abortion group and they don't want any discussion about how abortion hurts women or any other views that might deter women. I'm like damn, that's really messed up. I would want everyone's views in order to make a truly informed decision. I felt bad for those girls on there because they may not understand the full consequences. U may not be impacted until years later after the abortion. I remember how naive I was about it in my 20's and there was not much information that I easily found about it and I didn't look. I was so set on abortion thinking that's the best move. But I wish someone had explained to me more about the repruccsions.

 

[Yasuke]

People don't care and humans are ruthless creatures. Look at they way to react to anything perceived as immoral and unworthy of human dignity even if it doesn't inflict harm to someone else. Look how they react to someone and something that is unemployed, homeless, depressed, suicidal, anti-capitalism, mental disability it's all disgusting how cruel people are when you're not the norm. This is within all of us and it's readily applauded or accepted.

 

[ithappens]

Exactly well you could try defaulting your loans retrospectively by claiming you had depression when you took them out but now you're fine.

I could, but afaik in the US it's pretty impossible to get rid of student loans. Not that I have the money to pay them back right now anyways, so regardless they aren't getting anything out of me. Can't squeeze blood from a stone.

 

[Final Escape]

I could, but afaik in the US it's pretty impossible to get rid of student loans. Not that I have the money to pay them back right now anyways, so regardless they aren't getting anything out of me. Can't squeeze blood from a stone.

I think they shouldn't have loaned out the money not being sure we could pay it back lol!

 

[gnomeboy17]

I'm not an expert on this. I looked into it from the UK and they reckoned that with flights and hotels and the urn etc (law is you have to be cremated there, you cant be flown home or anything) it comes in just under £10,000. I understand reductions can be made in certain exceptions but i dont know what they are .... i dont have that sort of money

Not to sound stupid, but if you're dying then surely you can find a way to have the money. Eg selling your house, stealing from friends/family.

 

[Lostnotfound]

Not to sound stupid, but if you're dying then surely you can find a way to have the money. Eg selling your house, stealing from friends/family.

My house is not mine to sell and I am isolated, I dont have any friends or family. I have no way to raise anywhere near that sort of money

My house is not mine to sell and I am isolated, I dont have any friends or family. I have no way to raise anywhere near that sort of money and I don't qualify for bank loans etc

 

[gnomeboy17]

My house is not mine to sell and I am isolated, I dont have any friends or family. I have no way to raise anywhere near that sort of money

Yeah I understand that, I'm sorry. What are your thoughts on SN

 

[Lostnotfound]

Yeah I understand that, I'm sorry. What are your thoughts on SN

Yeah I will be taking it tonight if it goes to plan

 

[gnomeboy17]

Yeah I will be taking it tonight if it goes to plan

Oh right, well I hope it works out for you x

 

[ithappens]

I think they shouldn't have loaned out the money not being sure we could pay it back lol!

I agree. And the cost of college is ridiculous nowadays anyhow. There should be a limit to how much the student loan services are willing to pay per semester, then watch as colleges scramble to have more competitive pricing because they suddenly don't have enough students.