If you are trans your community would rather see you agonize for a lifetime than attain a quick escape

[Lucilius]

According to the overwhelmingly passable, respectability obsessed, "thought leaders" of the trans community hurting alive is preferable than a self-inflicted death no matter what. Trying to spare oneself years of excruciating pain is apparently some sort of disloyalty in the eyes of those same people who won't move a finger for you nor hesitate to sneer at an old transitioner's appearance with almost any pretext. When did the community abandon humanistic principles in favor of religious ones? Why is you do you not good enough? Does it simply have to do with the fear that any suicide would reflect negatively on the community as a whole in some way?

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Why is you do you not good enough? Does it simply have to do with the fear that any suicide would reflect negatively on the community as a whole in some way?

Probably this is one reason. It's the people who have somehow "made it" that like to tell other people who haven't what to do and how to feel the most. You're not responsible for changing entire narratives or for the whole community's feelings.

 

[actual_fox]

Probably this is one reason. It's the people who have somehow "made it" that like to tell other people who haven't what to do and how to feel the most. You're not responsible for changing entire narratives or for the whole community's feelings.

Yeah I have seen examples of those who made It. We must remember that messing with hormones is very risky. I think this is one of the things trans community does not acknowledge.

 

[wait.what]

I actually haven't heard much from "trans leaders" on any topic … I'm not even sure who they would be. Who are you thinking of specifically?

 

[WorthlessTrash]

People want to say that passing doesn't matter as a means to cope. Passing is VERY important, both from a social society issue, and a self image issue.

 

[mateodolores]

Hmm, I guess. But, that seems to be the case with many, if not all, demographics of people except us outliers. I'm not really sure what you mean by "thought leaders", but most people would prefer you to suffer through life than to die.

Though, I guess it's especially glaring with our community since we have a high number of attempts and it makes the community "look bad". Idk.

I don't give a shit about that anymore, though. I barely interact with other trans people because of that point of contention (along with other things). I don't care if I look "disloyal" or not. I have a right to not feel unnecessary pain just like everyone else does.

 

[Lucilius]

I'm not trans, but you might wanna consider watching some Blair White videos. Along with detransition videos.

What for? Those videos are not going to make me less dysphoric, lol. Blaire White is a privileged right wing idiot.

 

[Lucilius]

Yeah I have seen examples of those who made It. We must remember that messing with hormones is very risky. I think this is one of the things trans community does not acknowledge.

MtF HRT is not that risky. The real risk is that past a certain point it won't do anything at all. You wouldn't guess I take it at all just by looking at me. In any case, what's the worst that could happen? That I die?

 

[WorthlessTrash]

MtF HRT is not that risky. The real risk is that past a certain point it won't do anything at all. You wouldn't guess I take it at all just by looking at me. In any case, what's the worst that could happen? That I die?

I think the risk is looking worse than we did as our biological sex. Honestly, both options suck imo.

Body swapping can't be invented soon enough

 

[gimzero]

Its all narture.

 

[Lucilius]

Its all narture.

Wait, what? Is that a neologism made up of "nature" and "torture"? In that case, yeah. Narture, narture all around us.

 

[Lucilius]

I actually haven't heard much from "trans leaders" on any topic … I'm not even sure who they would be. Who are you thinking of specifically?

I'm thinking, for instance, of this thread decrying the "horrors" of medically assisted dying, motivated by the story of a trans guy who managed to gain access assisted suicide after a botched surgery (good for him, that after so much tragedy he got lucky with at least that one thing).

The thread is partly correct. Society should do all it can to avoid that anyone ends up choosing death by virtue of whatever fucked up socioeconomic circumstances or lack of medical care. But what if that is not enough? Why should people be forced to live in misery in the name of preventing some vague fascist threat? Or waiting for an ideal society that is never going to come? It's incredibly totalitarian.

Oh, but it is not about criminalising, it is just about removing any public funding (and presumably criminalising the providers): we are not punitive authoritarian right wingers, nonono. Tell to a heroin addict that you don't want to criminalise methadone, only defund it. Or for that matter, tell a trans person without economic means you don't want to ban transition treatments, just defund them altogether.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

How can disabled lives be good??? Maybe that person should live as a cripple and see how much they like it.

 

[Lucilius]

How can disabled lives be good??? Maybe that person should live as a cripple and see how much they like it.

Well, I guess some people can be happy with even extreme levels of disability. This might depend partly on innate predispositions and stuff. The point is that you cannot force anyone to be a martyr in the name of what ultimately is your own sense of disgust at the idea of, idk.. people, basing their decisions on utilitarian calculi? Life not being intrinsically valuable?

 

[wait.what]

Disabled lives can indeed be good. So can trans lives, and the lives of POC, and all kinds of lives that mainstream culture tells us are worth less than young, white, thin, wealthy, cishet, able-bodied lives.

The problem is that all kinds of lives can also suck. Even young, white, thin, wealthy, cishet, able-bodied lives. Forcing miserable people to drag themselves on and on and on, ostensibly for the sake of happy people who risk being murdered, smacks of the old line about having to clean your plate at dinner because there are starving children in [insert poor country here]. How does overfeeding a wealthy child help a starving poor one? In what way does a ban on suicide prevent murder?

I understand that the message is intended to be that life is precious, but what does that mean in a world where life is also mandatory? Are we placing our highest value on gas exchange, digestion, electrochemical activity? Because that, in addition to suffering, is what life comes down to for many people. If what we really mean is that a sense of purpose and meaningful connections with others are precious, then we should say so, as well as acknowledge that some lives are devoid of these things. We do nobody any favors by pretending that people have an obligation to live out lives full of intractable pain.

An enforced, wretched existence doesn't uphold any lofty ideals. If anything, it betrays a disturbing paternalism that ultimately devalues all people's agency and personhood.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir here. I don't really have a choice, except to say nothing at all. Not like I can write a letter to the editor of the New York Times, lol. (I still can't believe they put the site name in the headline. THAT'S certainly going to keep people away from this place.)

 

[ryo the frog]

this just comes to show just how stigmatized suicide is. In such an animus society you are destined to have to endure some sort of hardship as a trans person.
and even then some transgendered people would rather others to just power through it, fully knowing just how hard it can get.

 

[Lucilius]

The problem is not just how hard it can get. The problem is that for those who will never pass (and in other circumstances) it will never get any better. Often your own community will avoid you and regard you with disdain.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

The problem is not just how hard it can get. The problem is that for those who will never pass (and in other circumstances) it will never get any better. Often your own community will avoid you and regard you with disdain.

Oh, I don't think they regard you with disdain so much as they want you around to encourage people to try treatment, even in the face of very low chance of passing so they don't attempt to CTB and bring shame to those whom have transitioned and succeeded in recovering if that makes sense.

 

[noaccount]

Trans Lifeline ultimately respects people's decisions about this, whatever choice they make, that's why their hotline will never call crisis on anyone who doesn't ask them to.

Here also if you want to read this:

Make the Angels Wanna Dance, Mandy – Kate Bornstein is a Queer and Pleasant Danger

katebornstein.com

 

[Lucilius]

Many definitely do. You just need to listen to the way some personality like keffals talks about these matters. I have never see a passing trans person letting themselves be seen regularly out in public with a someone who is far from passing. Of course, there are exceptions with high status people (famous artists or academics).
Misgendering of late transitioners when talking among themselves is also really common. But of course in public statements everyone is valid.

 

[GentlyFading]

Idk about specific leaders, but I definitely have a bone to pick with a lot of the romanticization of "living out and proud are regardless of the pain and social consequences." Cisgender folks evangelize this the most, but it cuts deep when it comes from other trans folks.

I tried being a trans teen in high school. Damn was that a traumatic dumpster fire of abuse and neglect at the hands of adults who were tasked with caring for me. It's really gross considering that they changed their mind after I attempted suicide. It was the normal "first" behavior on the part of institutions: 1) treat someone awful, 2) change your mind after realizing there are consequences to being awful, 3) pretend that you were always on board and supportive, 4) idolize your victim and gaslight them whenever they complain with something along the lines of "we didn't know that, you're being judgemental." It really drove home how I was only acceptable as a trans youth if I was valiantly living in spite of adversity and not a failure who ended up dropping out because of it.

I don't fault you for wanting you to die. If there's anyone to fault it would be the forces that are causing your misery. You deserve better than the bullshit other trans folks have been giving you for being in pain.

 

[Lucilius]

My mother told me to my face something on the lines of "What are you trying to do? Become a monster?" as well as straight-up that only a fetishist would want to be with someone like me if I transitioned. After asking my father what would it take for him to use a different name to address me he angrily replied that there were no such conditions, that he might decide to do it one day or maybe never and then taunted me that if I wanted to increase my chances maybe I should put on some lipstick, while twisting his mouth in an expression of extreme disgust at me. Now my mother is parroting the usual cliches about how you should live your truth and what others think doesn't matter. Is this a fucking joke? And this is my family. Imagine the rest of society.

 

[Unending]

People want to say that passing doesn't matter as a means to cope. Passing is VERY important, both from a social society issue, and a self image issue.

Not passing has been a huge detriment to my wellbeing and I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think anyone should have to pass if they don't care about it but realistically, atleast for me, not passing has a heavy weight on my mental health.

 

[jamie_]

1) treat someone awful, 2) change your mind after realizing there are consequences to being awful, 3) pretend that you were always on board and supportive, 4) idolize your victim and gaslight them whenever they complain with something along the lines of "we didn't know that, you're being judgemental." It really drove home how I was only acceptable as a trans youth if I was valiantly living in spite of adversity and not a failure who ended up dropping out because of it

This could be used to describe mental health responses more generally and people's slacktivism. Depressing.

 

[lyles]

It's weird, I haven't felt like me being trans has contributed to me being suicidal since I was young. I am fully transitioned and though I am still sometimes misgendered, it does not at all bother me to the same degree it used to. I actually feel much better about my identity in general and it is a positive point in my life now.

Overall, though, I do think that the trans community correlates suicide less with escape or choice and more with persecution due to the nature of our society and the statistical reports. When you just hear about how many teens are killing themselves because they are trans then it makes the community desperate, which leads to a variety of responses. Although I think they are all fairly normal considering the climate around suicide currently.

While I do wish that there were more conversations that engaged with suicide on our terms, I hardly view that to be an issue exclusive to the trans community.

 

[Lucilius]

It's weird, I haven't felt like me being trans has contributed to me being suicidal since I was young. I am fully transitioned and though I am still sometimes misgendered, it does not at all bother me to the same degree it used to. I actually feel much better about my identity in general and it is a positive point in my life now.

Overall, though, I do think that the trans community correlates suicide less with escape or choice and more with persecution due to the nature of our society and the statistical reports. When you just hear about how many teens are killing themselves because they are trans then it makes the community desperate, which leads to a variety of responses. Although I think they are all fairly normal considering the climate around suicide currently.

While I do wish that there were more conversations that engaged with suicide on our terms, I hardly view that to be an issue exclusive to the trans community.

Aren't older trans people killing themselves too, though? What about people who will never be able to transition? What does the community have to say about that? I feel like nobody cares as long as we don't openly identify as trans, at which point we become a liability.

 

[Dot]

Thnk = possble tht sme ppl 2 justfyng/vald8tng thr own journy & projctng tht on2 othr ppl

Syng 'u cnnt ctb bcse of ths' cld jst b 'slf hve suffrd 2 gt 2 whre am & othr ppl ctb-ing fr simlr reasns comprmises own copng mechnsms tht hve kpt slf functionng & alve

Thnk tht cn b th/ issu wth n.e suffrng cmmunty -- thy r crryng s/ mny unacknwldgd emotns tht thy mke othr ppl rsponsble fr thm fr thr own cmfrt

Slf hve Cn ths issu in a specfc dsablty cmmunty also whre ppl trn on ech-othr fr crryng diffrnt belfs bcse thse belfs in thmslves r a defnse mechnsm fr mny membrs

 

[makethepainstop]

I think I want to die in very large part because I don't feel I am male enough. I am of the opinion that I am not large enough to be a real man. Being 5'11 sucks, not having and man fur...Sigh if I was a dog I'd be a Mexican hairless. no furry armpits, studley chest hair, happy train on my stomach. Damn it, why couldn't God give me this hyper-masculine trait. So where trans people want to be the opposite sex, I want to be uber-male.
Perhaps in the afterlife, we can explain to God why we didn't like this life and get a better life in the next one.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

All marginalised communities want to showcase motivational success stories, rather than draw too much attention to the individuals who are still struggling, or who couldn't bear their suffering anymore and decided to leave this world instead to escape it. Focusing on these harsh realities, on those who didn't make it, is bad for morale and few people want to really sit there pondering on the pain and suffering that others experience through no fault of their own.

That's why we see disabled olympians in news stories, homeless people who have escaped the streets to become affluent business owners, or refugees who have overcome their traumatic circumstances to become motivational speakers or community leaders. We like to see inspirational stories that instill hope and belief that the underdogs in society can achieve victories too, against all odds.

However, only wanting to see these positive accounts masks the real, ongoing issues that plague disadvantaged populations. In the trans community specifically, I think many of the voices in the media come from affluent American backgrounds, think supermodels, comedians and youtubers/streamers from New York or California who had loving family members supporting their transition, and access to the best doctors and surgical teams. This is not even vaguely representative of the community as a whole.

One of the big elephants in the room that plagues the trans community (and indeed, many others as well) is that those who have a good support network simply cannot empathise with those whose families abused them, cut them off, and ostracised them because of their identity. The message that gets sent out is, "You should be able to function on your own, prioritise moving out and it will magically get better, you don't need anyone else. Just love yourself."

It is callousness and terrible advice, because this isolation leaves a high number of trans people at risk of becoming suicidal or carrying out the act. Telling an 18 year old adolescent with no resources that they need to leave their family NOW and try to survive on their own while solely bearing the burden of financing their transition is toxic.

There really is no support out there for those who have been left behind by their family and friends. When I was underage, a therapist told me that everything would be better when I turned 18, because I would have freedom from my homphobic family. Guess what? It just opened the door for more abuse, because I was a vunerable person out there on my own, and others knew this. I still had the mind of a child but was expected to function like an adult. This happens to so many LGBT people that it's unbelievable. Especially those from countries and cultures where it is heavily taboo.

Not to mention, many trans people are autistic or suffer from other comorbid illnesses and disabilities, making their lives even more challenging. These people are shunned even more, because they are unlikely to be glamorized media personalities. These are the demographics which truly need help and support, yet find themselves silenced because they aren't oozing optimism and hope.

We need to be able to speak about the issues and problems plaguing society if we ever want them to change, but I think over the last decade especially, the Overton window has shifted towards covering up, silencing, and censoring those who criticise mental health industry dogmas, and this includes pushing a very specific narrative about suicidal people.

It is easier to pretend the issues that make people suicidal don't exist in first place, as opposed to acknowledging and addressing them. One specific example I can think of is trans people who had botched surgeries. When these people share the painful reality that a surgeon messed up their body and made their dysphoria worse, they get shut down, because people think that someone sharing their bad experiences will put others off from "accessing treatment".

They sing the same tune when someone also expresses displeasure at the failures of the mental health system. When meds or therapists didn't help them, their lived experience is suddenly dangerous misinformation that needs to be shut down and kept under lock and key, lest an observer get the inclination not to take their prozac anymore. By covering these things up, the situation only gets worse and worse, because nothing can improve when everyone is forced to pretend it's all A okay.

Deep down, I think some people are also a bit insecure about the level at which they do lust for life or have made peace with death, and they are afraid that being around a suicidal person will put their own beliefs, fears, and emotions into question. Once again, bad for morale. Telling everyone else they have to live no matter what can be an effective method of assuaging one's own fears about death, or the fact that misfortune circumstances could very well befall them someday.

Acknowledging that life can be miserable to the point where another person wants out is something harrowing and ugly to many people. Especially if the issues causing someone to be suicidal don't really have a solution at present.

It is not easy for most people to see the cruelty of removing one's agency and choice, because in their minds, life has to be something good and sacred no matter what, so by that moral code they believe they are are doing everyone a favor by enforcing strict prevention. You have to be a survivor, rather than a statistic. It is a hard pill to swallow that many people can and do fight their assess off for years just to survive, and still aren't happy. Our culture can't accept that just having the choice, the option to bow out when things get unbearable, can bring a world of relief to some people who have exhausted all their options.

 

[Lucilius]

Richard Baxton piloted his Recon Rover into a fungal vortex and held off four waves of mind worms, saving an entire colony.
We immediately purchased his identity manifests and repackaged him into the Recon Rover Rick character with a multi-tiered media campaign: televids, touchbooks, holos, psi-tours–the works.
People need heroes. They don't need to know how he died clawing his eyes out, screaming for mercy. The real story would just hurt sales, and dampen the spirits of our customers.

— "Mythology for Profit", Morgan Stellartots Keynote Speech