If a God (creator) really exists, he is neither benevolent nor omnipotent.

[SpiritualDeath]

Title.
If there really is a God and we were created by him, this alone shows that he is not omnipotent.

What "God's plan" is is unimportant. The only thing that matters is somehow he needs us to exist. If it's not the case he simply wouldn't create us. He can't just snap his fingers and do whatever he wants to do, instead he needs to create us to carry out "his plan" - his ability is limited.

Not only does he need us to be here, he also needs us to:
1. Live in a shitty world, have a physical body that's perfectly designed for suffering.
2. Be sentient. Be aware of ourselves and our suffering, and have the ability to think for ourselves.
3. Somehow still listens to him and do what he wants us to do (e.g. procreate and keep existing).
lol. Such a system is inefficient af.

There are actually so many ways to improve this system. I'll give a few example.
1. If he's our creator, he can just snap his fingers and make us all non-sentient robot, without awareness and can only do what we are programmed to do. This way 100% of the population would only do things that help this God with his plan. It's an infinitely better system. I don't see why not, except that he's actually unable to achieve this.
2. If he's our creator, and have direct power over us, he can make himself present in front of all of us, and directly show us that he is our God and has direct power over us. This way everyone has to believe that there's a God (since he made himself present), and has no choice but to do what he says (since he has direct power over us, and that means we can't win if we fight him). Again, I don't see why not, except that he's actually unable to do this, or he doesn't have this direct power over us. Therefore it's even reasonable to assume that if we fight him there's a chance for us to win.
Or does he actually need the show to play out in an inefficient way? That would be contradictory to what religions are doing now (constantly advertising their Gods and trying to get more people to believe in them - this is trying to increase the efficiency of the God's plan following system).

No matter what the case really is, if I were this God, I wouldn't actually create a hell.
It may be plausible to assume that God doesn't have direct power over his creation. This may also mean that he can't snap his fingers and make hell a permanently failsafe system. A general rule: if you promise someone something, expect them to want more from you, and if you torture someone, expect them to want to fight back. If I were this God I wouldn't want to design a hell that's not guaranteed forever failsafe, just to torture the people that are of no use to me. This is because just a small crack in the system (i.e. when hell loses it's power/control over people even just for a little bit), can lead to catastrophic consequences for me. It makes more sense for God to just dissolve people that are of no use to him, instead of actually put them in a giant torture chamber, and risk the system failing. It's not even a good way to threaten people to following him - he doesn't need to at all. He's the creator, so he can always create new potential followers, can't he?

What's the point of worshiping a malevolent God? What exactly is this heaven in the scripts?
It doesn't sound like anything good. It sounds more like a bait actually. You can't ever know if this heaven really exist, or what it's really like while you're alive. All you have is a few scripts or other people's stories. It sounds like it's used to attract whoever is willing to fully believe in something just from reading a few scripts or hearing a few stories, i.e. easy enough to control, so that God can more easily exploit them.

In this sense there's a possibility that the so-called heaven is a form of hell, where the selected people (whoever's willing to believe a few stories and obey the orders when they're alive), continue to be exploited after death, while the rest of us (who are of no use to God) get dissolved into sweet non-existence.

This reasoning is applicable in other forms of religious/spiritual teachings as well. For example there are things that admit that we live in a cesspool (instead of praising life), but we have to do certain things while we're here to earn our tickets to sweet non-existence, or else we get reincarnated back into this cesspool and continue suffering. Again, you can never know for sure what's really there for you if you just believe in some stories and do whatever they tell you to do.

That's basically why I find that no religion, or spiritual teaching is worth believing in or practicing, even though I can't rule out the possibility that they are true or partially true.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I can't help but wonder- if there is a God- what type of character are they? I can only come to the conclusion that they are a narcissistic socio/psychopathic sadist.

God clearly feels the need to be worshipped. But- I don't think it's enough for them to receive worship from an utterly obedient being. How many animals do you suppose believe in Jesus? Why didn't Jesus appear as a Llama?

God clearly favours humankind according to scripture and- I think sentience is key. I think part of the 'thrill' is maybe to give us choice. Not only that- to tempt us with sin and throw all kinds of mysery and suffering at us. Must be quite an ego boost that some of their 'flock' still profess to love them.

A bit like an abusive partner- a narcissist. They start challenging and pushing their partners, gradually becoming more and more agressive and they get off on the amount of control they have over that person when that person doesn't leave. I can't help but see God in that light.

I'm like you really. I'm more in the atheist camp now- at least, I'd like to be. The reality of there actually being a creator behind all this is terrifying! I feel sure that- if there is a God, I'm going to hell because I'm truly disgusted by them.

 

[SpiritualDeath]

I can only come to the conclusion that they are a narcissistic socio/psychopathic sadist.

Yeah that could be possible as well. God is a psychopathic sadist and created us just to watch us suffer and have fun.
Again there's no point in believing the heaven such a sadist God promises us. You never know if it's really heaven. It may actually be a bait, leading to next level of suffering.
lol I'm probably going to hell just for thinking like this.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

If God exists then he, or it, is obviously a sadistic control freak who enjoys playing games and tormenting humans.
The god character is also a hypocrite, who approves of slavery and incest, and is also a mass murderer because the old testament is filled with stories of his wrath upon humans Including innocent children and babies.
I don't believe in the bible yet the evidence is overwhelming that God isn't our friend.
I often wonder if gnosticism is true, because it makes a lot of sense when you see the true nature of our existence.

 

[Forever Sleep]

lol I'm probably going to hell just for thinking like this.

I'll see you there .

It's like that wonderful Irish Philosophy quote:

An Irishman's Philosophy
There are only two things to worry about:
Either you are well or you are sick.

If you are sick,
Then there are only two things to worry about:
Either you will get well or you will die.

If you get well,
Then there are only two things to worry about:
Either you will go to heaven or hell.

If you go to heaven, there is nothing to worry about.

But if you go to hell,
You'll be so damn busy shaking hands with friends
You won't have time to worry!

~ Author Unknown ~

 

[Aim]

I'm not a christian. But agree on alot of what is written in the bible. Besides i committed all of the 7 deadly sins. And it brought me straight to hell! (Hell on earth). I am crossing my fingers that god, since in my opinion at least the church is for the sinners, hopefully will forgive. And that it stops in this existence

 

[pompompurin]

I have a theory that's propably not true but it's pretty cool in my opinion. Basically the Christian god is Loki the god of mischief from the Norse mythology. For example if we look at the garden of eden, it really sounds like the Idunn's orchad, and Idunn was a Norse goddess, she was the keeper of the magic apples of immortality. And we can confirm that by looking at a story in which Loki abducts the goddess Idunn who grows those apples which are responsible for the god's youth and vigour(remember that Adam and Eve lived for around a 1000 years after eating the apple, also Adam and Eve are christian counterparts to the Askr and Embla for the norse mythology). In the original story Loki returned her and thats where the story would end buy knowing thats it's Loki we can safely assume that he didn't return her and by that he let all of the other norse god's die and rewrite history to pretend he'd been the one and only god. Although he had to keep Baldur alive because Baldur's demise is the catalyst for Ragnarok which is still destined to happen. But of course what about Loki's children? There is a fragment in Psalm 74:14(not sure) where god slays Leviathan which is basically Jormungandr, also Revelation 19 depicts a heavenly warrior battling the beast(in this case Fenrir) riding on a White Horse(which could potentially be Sleipnir) eyes blazing like fire(Loki is the god of fire) with the name that no one knows but himself. But why would he fight his own kids you ask? I don't think he would, not really but since we've established that the myth of Ragnarok is still stuck around and he's gotta find some way to spin it, what if this is his attempt to make people think Ragnarok had come to pass when it hadn't, the biblical apocalypse in this case is just a trick for Loki to get suspicion off of himself. There is a lot more that I could say but this is starting to get long, if you have any questions feel free to ask and I'll try to respond.

 

[Rust20]

Many of the assumptions here are easily explained by religions(about free will and why God doesn't show itself). However, The duality of good and evil cannot be ignored here. There is a religion(or theory) that goes like this: There was a Unity/Singularity in the beginning, and the singularity got bored so two forces were born from it, one was God, the other Demon(or Devil/Satan), they both created the world in a duality of good and evil.
The not-all-powerful God can easily be seen in this theory (although I see the absence of a creator).

 

[SpiritualDeath]

Many of the assumptions here are easily explained by religions(about free will and why God doesn't show itself).

I have read some of these and none of them is satisfactory enough as an explanation to get me to believe. It's very easy to make up another story to make one story sound plausible, but they're still stories that may be 100% made up since there's still no evidence to support them. You can try to use stories to explain stories till eternity but if there's no direct evidence, they're still just stories. Some of them are even self-contradictory, like how Christian God gave us free will out of justice (for benevolent reasons), but in the scripture he himself clearly isn't doing benevolent things.

Some say that anything self-contradictory is because the truth is "beyond our understanding", "God foresees everything and what he's doing is beyond understanding", but how does that even make sense, and what kind of free will is it? You create slaves, give them the ability to doubt, but still expect them not to doubt anything "beyond their understanding" and just believe in you and obey your orders, or else they're threatened with hell. What kind of justice is it? This kind of explanations makes it sound even more like God's selecting people that's easy enough to control to further exploit them lol.

My father's a Christian and he used to tell me "if someone bullies you don't fight back, just believe in God, since only God should have the power of punishing people". See how this doesn't make any sense?

 

[starlightsun]

This line of thought really nawed at me a few months ago... What disturbs me is that if there is a creator, it does not appear to be our friend.

If "God" is that powerful to create this universe/simulation/whatever this reality is, it certainly would not seem to "need" us for anything, therefore it is possible we exist purely for entertainment and/or just because it can, in the same way that human developers create video games.

This may be of interest, "The Problem of Evil":

The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

"...for simplicity, we focus on a conception of God as all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good, one very concise way of formulating such an argument is as follows:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist"

If there is a creator or something like a God it may not possess all of the properties outlined, eg. it could be omnipotent and omniscient, but uncaring or downright malevolent.

 

[SpiritualDeath]

This line of thought really nawed at me a few months ago... What disturbs me is that if there is a creator, it does not appear to be our friend.

If "God" is that powerful to create this universe/simulation/whatever this reality is, it certainly would not seem to "need" us for anything, therefore it is possible we exist purely for entertainment and/or just because it can, in the same way that human developers create video games.

This may be of interest, "The Problem of Evil":

The Problem of Evil (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

plato.stanford.edu

"...for simplicity, we focus on a conception of God as all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfectly good, one very concise way of formulating such an argument is as follows:

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist"

If there is a creator or something like a God it may not possess all of the properties outlined, eg. it could be omnipotent and omniscient, but uncaring or downright malevolent.

Exactly, spot on!
Just to add a point: entertainment is actually a need as well. In this case it would be God needs us to exist to entertain himself (instead of snapping his fingers and getting himself rid of the boredom, which is tbh way better if he could).

 

[Bodydysmorphia34]

Maybe a little bit off topic but I find it hard to believe a worse place than earth (namely hell) could exist since I feel like we are already living in a hellish place.

But assuming hell doesn't exist, heaven is just as unlikely imo. Why would individuals like Hitler, Stalin, serial killers, rapists etc. get a free pass to heaven just like any other human? This would essentially mean it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you are a good or bad human. Also, humans would ruin heaven as soon as they get there lol

Religions aren't about altruism and benevolence as some claim them to be. They're more like a lifestyle guide created by humans (for example the Bible was created by humans, not by God). The fact homosexuality is forbidden in Islam already shows it isn't about being a good person but following a certain dogma. I could go on and on with human rights (like women's rights) but you get the idea.

I hope there is a supernatural power like a God to bring justice after death.

 

[SpiritualDeath]

Also, humans would ruin heaven as soon as they get there lol

This is so true lol what makes the religious think that heaven wouldn't become a shit place as well once it has humans there

 

[starlightsun]

Maybe a little bit off topic but I find it hard to believe a worse place than earth (namely hell) could exist since I feel like we are already living in a hellish place.

Completely agree. Earth is a more sophisticated version of hell, opposed to the obvious biblical one with the eternal fires of damnation etc etc.

 

[Tobacco]

Don't worry. Christians will find a way to contort around this issue even if it leads them to unintended consequences. I've seen some admit how there are things that are impossible for God to accomplish in certain way so their faith remains intact. (Some people think that it is necessary for us to go throught this world to achieve greater goodness).

 

[k1w1]

Gnostic take on it is that the Lord of this world is insane. Even listening to people on various internet forums leads me to believe that if you started out in your right mind, too much exposure to humanity's half-baked wishes would soon drive one in a position of divinity round the bend very quickly.

 

[real person]

these are standard anti theist arguments

 

[DarkRange55]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus

 

[sserafim]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus

What if God doesn't exist and is just a human creation/invention? That's what I believe

 

[DarkRange55]

What if God doesn't exist and is just a human creation/invention? That's what I believe

Sigmund Freud Said god is an illusion and something along the lines of, "God is an existential manifestation of our collective cultural yearning for a sense of parental power over our chaotic universe." It's a lot easier to believe that everything is ordered and in control and there's a grand plan to everything instead of accepting that the universe is a cold, random dispassionate place. It's much more psychologically soothing. This appeals to both conspiracy theorists and religious people.

What if God doesn't exist and is just a human creation/invention? That's what I believe

Read God the Failed Hypothesis by Victor J. Stinger. And read Civilization and Its Discontents.

 

[dogbreath]

If there is a god (or gods) humanity is just one big Sims gameplay. Like maybe we are just a source of entertainment for them, maybe its fun to see their creations suffer or something....maybe god is neither good or evil and is just bored. I bring up the sims cause I've read stories of ppl putting their sims in a pool and removing the ladder just for fun or creating a dungeon to lock the sims they hate in it, stuff like that lol,,,I mean if humans do that for fun, wouldn't be surprised if god sent down another plague for funsies and giggles

 

[DarkRange55]

If there is a god (or gods) humanity is just one big Sims gameplay. Like maybe we are just a source of entertainment for them, maybe its fun to see their creations suffer or something....maybe god is neither good or evil and is just bored. I bring up the sims cause I've read stories of ppl putting their sims in a pool and removing the ladder just for fun or creating a dungeon to lock the sims they hate in it, stuff like that lol,,,I mean if humans do that for fun, wouldn't be surprised if god sent down another plague for funsies and giggles

Could be panspermia or experimentation or it could be deism - god setup the universe and the laws that govern it then left.