Venting Identity politics, divide and conquer, class, occupy Wall Street and oligarchy

[missedmybus]

Somebody in another thread posted a bunch of racist stuff about white people. I was typing out this post on response and got fired up. But thread was closed already. I still think the experiences, context and my conclusion are important to get across to as many people as possible.

Especially as I've noticed a lot of younger people (<25) are completely in this type of ideology. Don't know anything else. Think it's all true.

The effects of this toxic propaganda campaign is robably also the reason why some of us are here

On Identity politics, divide and conquer, class, occupy Wall Street and oligarchy.

Race is inherently a hierarchical concept and Whiteness.

I fundamentally disagree with these concepts.

I can tell you that for me, outside in a confused, lonely and vulnerable period, when the only people who seemed to accept me were skinheads (hate groups usually prey on people like that).

Outside of those 2 years I have never had a feeling of superiority or even really thought about what race is. The only two thoughts and memories of this are the horrors of world war 2 and looking back in disgust at my "friends" when I was 13 years old.

Throughout my life, the only people that actually seemed to have serious thought about race, were the people lowest on the factual hierarchy. Unemployed, mental issues, drug people and the very poor.

This, however, has not been exclusive to "White" (really? with the capital W?) people.

Let me explain with some anecdotes and some things I think from my research into of some of the above.
I have worked and met a lot of minorities in my life. I have trained some of them, from people who had nothing going for them, from doing menial labour to somewhat technical jobs.

At the beginning, when they were unemployed, didn't have any money or see a way to escape this situation, they would consistently ask me about race.

After six months, when they got hired permanently, got to learn something more technical than just standing at a conveyor belt breaking their backs. When they had perspective, all this talk about race stopped.

Do you think racism was the cause of these thoughts they had before? Or could it be that corporations were allowed to keep people waiting for six months to get a permanent job?

I tell you this not to brag or show "oh whitey trained a black guy, just like the good old days", just to to show you my perspective, and also to give some context why I do I think this way.

SInce about 2005 there has been a consistent messaging from Anglo countries (US and then UK) in media, humanities and by politicians (of both political parties.)

That white is king boss man who did everything wrong in history, and everybody else is oppressed and who is to blame. Whitey!!

Or that coloured and trans people want to rob and rape you. That some trans person will "convert" their children.

Who do you think owns this media, funds these universities, owns these politicians?
All this bullshit bullshit ideas and concepts and othering of people is only a way to keep poor people divided. They gain more money, more people get into bad situations and thus need somebody or something to blame. So they blame each other.

This is classic divide and conquer.

Since about 10 years ago, however, I have heard white people starting to think about race. In a serious way.

I didn't really understand why, until the first time Trump got elected, and the fact that this buffoon got into power.

I saw blatant and open xenophobia, coming from the leader of one of the world's superpowers.

I needed to know why.

I spoke with white people, asked around.

Some white people said "Maybe we need a guy like that."

or

"Everybody of a different colour seems to hate us, and if we allow them, we will go the way the native Americans did."

I spoke to people of colour. Asked around more.
This was more complex, as most of them have understandable historical grievances.

But the ones that went beyond these historical grievances, became more hostile as I challenged their ideas.

Talked to me as if I personally am some colonialist from centuries ago.

Mind you, these are people I've known for over a decade. None of this stuff ever came up in this way.

I enjoy talking about history and I am very interested in how historic events effect the present. So it's not like we hadn't spoken about race, colonialism or power dynamics.

Sometimes with completely opposing viewpoints, sometimes with passion. But always cordial and never personal.

I ask them where they got these ideas, how they got to so enthusiastic about these ideas. ALL OF THEM mentioned American media.

Why do you think Trump got elected? Why not another Obama, or a person of colour?

Is it because white people are inherently racist? Or did something else change in the last 20 years?

I can pinpoint to you exactly when these divisive identity politics started becoming mainstream.

Occupy Wall Street. The one time in my life the owner classes got scared.

Who do you think owns most American media outlets? It's not regular old me or you.

Would recommend you to do your own research, stop believing everything you are spoonfed and gain some critical thinking skills.

Maybe stop thinking about race so much, and start thinking about the billionaire class that is actively destroying the US right now.

What they might do to other countries as well

Do you think these billionaires give a shit about people of colour? If that is even the correct term anymore. It's changed multiple times in the last few years.

They might give a shit about white people though, as one of the most visible of these oligarchs grew up in apartheid South Africa.

The one actively destroying the things that protect vulnerable people.

Are you ready to live under a white christian nationalist authoritarian oligarchy?

Because you already are living under one, they are just rolling it out slowly.

This might come across as a threat. But wake up and see what's going on in reality.

Project 2025 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Something you can point at, show people how detrimental and dangerous this situation really is.

I would suggest you speak to as many people as possible about what a threat to the world this is.

Every type of person.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

You fundamentally disagreeing with the fact that race and whiteness are hierarchical because some skinheads were nice to you and because you feel like you've, personally, never felt superior as a result of race is nothing short of idiotic, tbh.

The concept of race literally came about as a means of creating a divide between poor Europeans and enslaved Africans by placing those of European descent on top in order to create a divide between the two groups. It also was historically a way for European colonizers to other the people whose land they were colonizing. Race and whiteness are inherently hierarchical concepts. This is not a new sentiment either. People have been saying this for a very long time. Nothing that you said in any way disproves this. The concept of race was used to better justify slavery and would end up becoming a concept that would be ingrained in Western society, not being used to justify the mistreatment and discrimination of POC.

Race is something that should not be downplayed and the fact that you never considered the idea that maybe part of why you have trouble with recognizing racism might just be because your whiteness protects you from it, thus the particular experiences that POC generally go through that have allowed for them to better recognize racism when they see it, even in its more subtle forms, aren't going to be something that you necessarily register as easily? Along with that, it feels like you are straight-up ignoring the fact that we have a shit ton of research that does confirm many of the issues with racism that people of colour talk about today. Maybe those POC you were training stopped talking about racism with you because it's clear that you don't give a shit about their experiences and are quick to brush them off?

Also, we can do two things at the same time. Issues in regard to class tend to heavily intersect with issues regarding race, so both are actually in need of being tackled. One should not be ignored in favour of the other, otherwise, any attempt to dismantle these issues will end up falling flat. Funnily enough, issues regarding classism are something that historically have been brought up by many black American activists and are still commonly talked about by many black activists today.

Race is a social construct that has become interwoven in the structure of many Western civilizations, thus discussions on it are needed. Funnily enough, it is actually people like you who create more divide. When you go ahead and brush off the issues that POC in your country are going through, only talking about uniting with them when it's convenient for you is what leads to many POC not wanting to bother themselves with you. Why would anyone want to work with someone who, rather than examining their own privileges and looking towards wanting to create meaningful change for everyone, instead decides to invalidate the struggles of others under the false pretenses of "unity"? Especially when there is a history of people doing shit like this and benefiting from it while little ends up changing for many POC communities, especially in the case of the African American community.

Do you want people to unite? Do you want people to start using their critical thinking skills and to try educating themselves? Then you need to educate yourself rather than just ignoring shit and expecting others to do the same. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing people like you with this sort of "kumbaya" type rhetoric running around and expecting people like me to just ignore all of the systematic issues that impact my community purely for your benefit. People are only going to start uniting when people like you actually start to take the issues of other marginalized communities seriously instead of running around with your empty platitudes and shit. Those "mainstream identity politics" that have been causing this divide have existed since prior to when either you or I were born. None of this is recent. This divide has been around for quite some time.

You people only want "unity" purely for your own benefit. You don't care about anyone but yourself and it shows. This pattern isn't a new one. This shit has been seen over and over again. The minute you get what you, and everyone else like you, want you people will gladly go throw everyone under the bus. Hell, look at the number of racist dumbasses who vote for Trump and who were saying racist shit about black people only to then start whining about how "we all need to unite against this" and "where are all the black women? We need to unite together more than ever" the minute shit hit the fan and they realized that they weren't safe from his horrible rampage.

Honestly, this crap is getting tiring. I especially feel sorry for African Americans. They seem to have to deal a lot with this sort of crap and must be so exhausting.

Anyway, I'm going to get my sleep-deprived ass back to studying for my exam.

 

[missedmybus]

@EvisceratedJester

Sorry for the late reply, something happened irl and I couldn't internet for a while.

I think I came across more hostile than I intended. I wasn't trying to personally attack you, or make it seem that only left-or right-wing identity politics are toxic. Although even there. I reject the false dichotomy between left and right. I think they are divisive and have caused issues since their first appearance in the French Revolution.

I think we agree on most things you've posted just that we have a fundamentally different view on the world and history.


Since about 20 years ago, the only things I seem to hear from the US media, it's politicians and academia is nothing but identity politics.

Thought it was just divisive and not helpful much. Thought to myself, oh Americans, they are such a unique bunch of people. Thought we were in a period of big change, like the 60s-70s.

The idea of people temporarily putting their aside their differences and uniting against the powers that be isn't new in America. I am sure you can find multiple occasions throughout history.

I am thinking more of the original Rainbow Coalition. A coalition built by the late great Fred Hampton.

Now, look at what happened to that first Rainbow Coalition. How the powers that be brutally murdered this man. Harassed this coalition until they fall apart under pressure.

Now see what immense technological advances have occurred. In surveillance, in weapons technology and so on.

I am a bit fearful we are reaching the point of no return for people wanting to live somewhat free. All the Great Powers of the day are now ran by authoritarian, repressive regimes.

They aren't driven by identity; they are driven by a lust for power and greed. Are willing to use it to achieve their goals though.

I will try to be as clear and concise in my post as possible, but I tend to ramble on. If anything is not clear , we can discuss more. I can provide more sources for most of my claims.

First off, though:

Race is a social construct that has become interwoven in the structure of many Western civilizations, thus discussions on it are needed.

Agree completely with this.



The concept of race literally came about as a means of creating a divide between poor Europeans and enslaved Africans by placing those of European descent on top in order to create a divide between the two groups. It also was historically a way for European colonizers to other the people whose land they were colonizing. Race and whiteness are inherently hierarchical concepts. This is not a new sentiment either. People have been saying this for a very long time. Nothing that you said in any way disproves this. The concept of race was used to better justify slavery and would end up becoming a concept that would be ingrained in Western society, not being used to justify the mistreatment and discrimination of POC.

Race is something that should not be downplayed and the fact that you never considered the idea that maybe part of why you have trouble with recognizing racism might just be because your whiteness protects you from it, thus the particular experiences that POC generally go through that have allowed for them to better recognize racism when they see it, even in its more subtle forms, aren't going to be something that you necessarily register as easily? Along with that, it feels like you are straight-up ignoring the fact that we have a shit ton of research that does confirm many of the issues with racism that people of colour talk about today. Maybe those POC you were training stopped talking about racism with you because it's clear that you don't give a shit about their experiences and are quick to brush them off?

I agree that being aware of people's race, gender identity, sexual preference and other forms of identifications are important.

However, I do not think it's healthy for media, politicians and corporations to shove these things down people's throats.

I still think Identity POLITICS are a way of dividing people.

You are ascribing all these actions to me, because of the colour of my skin.
I didn't say racism isn't real. I didn't say that things don't affect minorities more than the majority. I also didn't tell you what the people in the factory told me.

By the way: they were mostly making racially coloured jokes and teasing me. Not any deep experiences about race or discrimination to a guy they just met a couple of months ago.

Also, we can do two things at the same time. Issues in regard to class tend to heavily intersect with issues regarding race, so both are actually in need of being tackled. One should not be ignored in favour of the other, otherwise, any attempt to dismantle these issues will end up falling flat. Funnily enough, issues regarding classism are something that historically have been brought up by many black American activists and are still commonly talked about by many black activists today.



I somewhat agree, however, I think we aren't solving either of these with the way these issues are being blasted at people. Most people (especially most white people since they tend to self-segregate) are stupid, get fired up when they feel they are under attack.

The only arguments I made were:

That I think the almost constant media attention about identity politics is creating a lot more issues, than it solves. That I think wealth inequality, at this time, is more pressing than identity politics.

I think the constant push of focus on non-classist identities it is a ploy to stop poor people from uniting against the rich, that it started being pushed right when Occupy Wallstreet was getting traction. That it is now being used to install an oligarchy. That this is coming from the Anglo world.

I can't really prove this, but if you want, I can try and write a somewhat coherent post showing why I think this way.

I also think wealth inequality affects vulnerable people in America (I'm guessing that's where you are from, since you seem to have a very Anglo-centric world view), Western countries in general, but especially the Third World.

This part I think we can agree on. Is kind of obvious. Can provide sources and arguments if needed.

Now the next part, I think we probably won't agree on, but I will attempt to show you why I think the way I think:

There are some thing I take issue with.
I agree "Race" in it's current context is an inherently black and white (no pun intended) issue.
HOWEVER, I don't agree with the current context.

The modern term Race/Racism being the ultimate definition:

Race has been a thing since antiquity. If you want to talk about this, I can provide sources, and we can discuss amicably. I am honestly open to any view. I am just providing my view.
And race being an exclusively white concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people

You could make the argument that contemporary Jewish people are mostly white, but the ancient Israelites definitely weren't.



I only know about these two concept because I am friends with both an Indian and an Orthodox Jewish guy.

I am sure I can find more examples if I wanted (to mind comes the Egyptian Hieroglyphs depicting pharaohs and slaves in different colours).



"You fundamentally disagreeing with the fact that race and whiteness are hierarchical because some skinheads were nice to you and because you feel like you've, personally, never felt superior as a result of race is nothing short of idiotic, tbh."


You people only want "unity" purely for your own benefit. You don't care about anyone but yourself and it shows. This pattern isn't a new one. This shit has been seen over and over again. The minute you get what you, and everyone else like you, want you people will gladly go throw everyone under the bus. Hell, look at the number of racist dumbasses who vote for Trump and who were saying racist shit about black people only to then start whining about how "we all need to unite against this" and "where are all the black women? We need to unite together more than ever" the minute shit hit the fan and they realized that they weren't safe from his horrible rampage.



Funnily enough, it is actually people like you who create more divide. When you go ahead and brush off the issues that POC in your country are going through, only talking about uniting with them when it's convenient for you is what leads to many POC not wanting to bother themselves with you. Why would anyone want to work with someone who, rather than examining their own privileges and looking towards wanting to create meaningful change for everyone, instead decides to invalidate the struggles of others under the false pretenses of "unity"? Especially when there is a history of people doing shit like this and benefiting from it while little ends up changing for many POC communities, especially in the case of the African American community.

Do you want people to unite? Do you want people to start using their critical thinking skills and to try educating themselves? Then you need to educate yourself rather than just ignoring shit and expecting others to do the same. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing people like you with this sort of "kumbaya" type rhetoric running around and expecting people like me to just ignore all of the systematic issues that impact my community purely for your benefit. People are only going to start uniting when people like you actually start to take the issues of other marginalized communities seriously instead of running around with your empty platitudes and shit. Those "mainstream identity politics" that have been causing this divide have existed since prior to when either you or I were born. None of this is recent. This divide has been around for quite some time.



Race is something that should not be downplayed and the fact that you never considered the idea that maybe part of why you have trouble with recognizing racism might just be because your whiteness protects you from it, thus the particular experiences that POC generally go through that have allowed for them to better recognize racism when they see it, even in its more subtle forms, aren't going to be something that you necessarily register as easily? Along with that, it feels like you are straight-up ignoring the fact that we have a shit ton of research that does confirm many of the issues with racism that people of colour talk about today. Maybe those POC you were training stopped talking about racism with you because it's clear that you don't give a shit about their experiences and are quick to brush them off?



Race is a social construct that has become interwoven in the structure of many Western civilizations, thus discussions on it are needed. Funnily enough, it is actually people like you who create more divide. When you go ahead and brush off the issues that POC in your country are going through, only talking about uniting with them when it's convenient for you is what leads to many POC not wanting to bother themselves with you. Why would anyone want to work with someone who, rather than examining their own privileges and looking towards wanting to create meaningful change for everyone, instead decides to invalidate the struggles of others under the false pretenses of "unity"? Especially when there is a history of people doing shit like this and benefiting from it while little ends up changing for many POC communities, especially in the case of the African American community.

You don't know me, my intentions, what I think or what type of person I am. Nor the way I interact, or have interacted with anyone or anybody.

Is this a constructive way of having a discussion? Personal attacks?

Mostly with the focus being my race.

I do agree with most of your other points though. I just don't agree with the singling out groups of people, or that racism is inherently white.

Sorry, my English isn't that great. I tried.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think fundamentally, any person can become obsessed with an aspect of their identity if they feel like they are being attacked or denied in some way. That can relate to anything- race, gender, sexuality, appearance.

As to whether the oppression is real and to what level a person is oppressed probably is possible to quantify. However, on a personal level, I think it's far more about perception. As in: I deserve this but someone else is preventing me from having it. Which, sadly often leads to hate.

I did see a post a while back questioning why some people were seemingly obsessed with their 'whiteness'. I'd argue that I've come across plenty of people who are somewhat obsessed with an aspect of themselves- being gay, being trans, being female, being black, being uneducated, being an immigrant, being an incel/ femcel. All likely because they felt judged or attacked or owed in some way so- they were defensive from the start.

It's arguable whether white people have the right to feel like their rights are being challenged, seeing as they (we- I'm white) likely are comparitively privelaged. However- it is comparitive. They may notice in their actual lives that the balance is changing and, they may not like it.

Interestingly when looking for a job once, I found a company was specifically recruiting for non white people- because there was less representation I guess. I just found it interesting though. I imagine they'd be in very hot water if they had said: no non white people.

 

[missedmybus]

I think fundamentally, any person can become obsessed with an aspect of their identity if they feel like they are being attacked or denied in some way. That can relate to anything- race, gender, sexuality, appearance.

As to whether the oppression is real and to what level a person is oppressed probably is possible to quantify. However, on a personal level, I think it's far more about perception. As in: I deserve this but someone else is preventing me from having it. Which, sadly often leads to hate.

I did see a post a while back questioning why some people were seemingly obsessed with their 'whiteness'. I'd argue that I've come across plenty of people who are somewhat obsessed with an aspect of themselves- being gay, being trans, being female, being black, being uneducated, being an immigrant, being an incel/ femcel. All likely because they felt judged or attacked or owed in some way so- they were defensive from the start.

It's arguable whether white people have the right to feel like their rights are being challenged, seeing as they (we- I'm white) likely are comparitively privelaged. However- it is comparitive. They may notice in their actual lives that the balance is changing and, they may not like it.

Interestingly when looking for a job once, I found a company was specifically recruiting for non white people- because there was less representation I guess. I just found it interesting though. I imagine they'd be in very hot water if they had said: no non white people.

I think for me the obsession with class comes from:

Switching schools a bunch because blind rebellion at everything leading to me dropping out of school very young.
Went from Greco-Latin studies (probably most elitist one here) to Electro-Mechanics to some Secretary thing... Useless degree in the end I got through homeschooling exams.
So before I turned 15 I had already interacted with people of most social strata that aren't the extreme end of society. Outside of my short stint hanging out with those skinheads.

Then getting into drugs heavily and ending up semi homeless. Another extremely different group of people.

Then menial labour to technical labour to supervisor/team lead. Again completely different mix of people.

Then having a relationship with a rich lady (like generational wealth rich), seeing how disconnected she was from real world. Again completely different types of people.

Then since my job wasn't good enough for her, I made switch to web development and worked for a multinational. Office people/politics. Again group I hadn't really dealt with before.

Best friend is still struggling with addiction, so I'm constantly visiting rehabs/psychiatric wards. Again different group of people.

Am involved with some anarchist/communist groups. Don't really believe in either, but feel like current society could use some of it.

Now pursuing bachelor in psychology (I am in my mid 30s) while working freelance web dev. So hanging out with 18-20somethings and some older people.

In the end I think everybody is the same mostly. Think there is good and bad in everyone. If I go to the psychiatric ward and I talk to some of these people, a lot of them are very intelligent and funny, even if half the stuff they say is probably made up. But so is everything really when you think about it.

I think I have interacted with more "groups" of people than most throughout my life. People are the same, just in different contexts. Noticed same in books. If I read a book from 300 years ago, can still relate to the characters.

Think Oppression and Privilege are very real.
Think I understand this to a certain extent, and really do not want to diminish. Discussions need to be had, but solutions need to follow.
Think it's not quantifiable, it's very personal, it's subjective.
Don't know if these problems can ever be truly solved.

Think Class/Wealth inequality IS quantifiable, impersonal and objective.
Think also the less wealth inequality, the less oppression and privilege follows naturally.
Think if people are empowered, and not put into vulnerable position consistently by the owner class/society, solutions to Privilege and Oppression will follow.
Don't know for sure. But is my intuition/experience with life.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Race is a nother word for sub-species. When a species divides into sub-species it is a precondition for an evolutionary diversion. Xenophobia or racism is a rection when one tribe or sub-species penetrates the habitat of a another tribe or sub-species.

I assume that the next bifurcation of the human species is between rich and poor, between those who have access to genetic engineering and those who have not.