Discussion I Wish I Could Believe in God Again

[Celerity]

Along with all the other stuff about how religion helps keep society cohesive and creates a self-justifying hierarchy so that rulers don't have to justify their rule (e.g. pharaohs and the Divine Right of Kings), I think organized religion dominates human cultures because it provides a reason to live even in very, very poor circumstances.

I was raised as a Baptist. No matter how much I was ostracized or abused by others, as long as I was right with God, I was a "good" person worthy of love. No matter how miserable life was, Heaven awaited. No matter how lost or confused I was, God could show me the way.

I envy those who can still believe. I know that would make me a very poor empiricist in the eyes of many - it certainly reveals a certain disrespect for the truth - but I am so very tired with little reason to keep going anymore.

If a fantasy is as good as it gets, bring it on! Reality is cold, ugly, disappointing, and terrifying.

 

[ncmxm]

I often feel the same way. I used to be a little religious when I was a teen and I was depressed and suicidal back then too but being religious still helped a bit, I remember I prayed sometimes and I legit felt like someone was listening. I had those moments when I felt completely at peace, I felt warm and safe and like the sun of a better world was shining on me. And I had something to look forward to, I had an eternity in heaven to look forward to. Now it's all gone. I could try to get it back but I don't know if I want to.

Edit
I agree with what you say about reality, about how it's cold and disappointing and terrifying. I must be weak because sometimes I think I'd rather choose a beautiful fantasy instead.

 

[Celerity]

I often feel the same way. I used to be a little religious when I was a teen and I was depressed and suicidal back then too but being religious still helped a bit, I remember I prayed sometimes and I legit felt like someone was listening. I had those moments when I felt completely at peace, I felt warm and safe and like the sun of a better world was shining on me. And I had something to look forward to, I had an eternity in heaven to look forward to. Now it's all gone. I could try to get it back but I don't know if I want to.

Edit
I agree with what you say about reality

Yeah, I just can't force myself to believe something I don't think is true no matter how much I would like to.

 

[Celerity]

This time last year I felt the exact same. Still I wouldn't say me and any God that does exist are on good terms. To be honest it was a good thing Loosing faith it doesn't matter weather God is real, now I read the Bible from the perspective of those that actually wrote it, the scriptures still speak as loud as they ever did and still contain so much wisdom that can be useful for agnostics/ atheists. Not only that but loosing faith made me much more open to the wisdom of other religions rather than just my own, the Quran and Buddhist scriptures especially. Loosing faith doesn't have to be a bad thing, it allows you to see faith from different perspectives, rather than focusing on heaven and hell as parts of the "after life" it shows you can find them on earth. Theres still so much value in all religions weather there is a God or not, the texts have been of use for so many and (to me at least) allow a historical view on so many great people who can be of much use at the darkest of times. Apologies that this is long it's a interesting subject.

I have looked into other religions. I didn't find it nearly as valuable as you did - just a lot of people trying to make sense out of a senseless existence.

 

[UseItOrLoseIt]

I don't. Why? I find more comfort in knowing that there is no control in the universe. That it's just random. I don't want to base my decisions on some principles that I don't feel like mine. I'll either live on my own terms and accept my responsabilities or die by my own hand and accept the nothing that's behind all illusions.

"It is only one's thoughts that fill a room with something more than furniture." - Wallace Stevens

 

[Celerity]

I don't. Why? I find more comfort in knowing that there is no control in the universe. That it's just random. I don't want to base my decisions on some principles that I don't feel like mine. I'll either live on my own terms and accept my responsabilities or die by my own hand and accept the nothing that's behind all illusions.

"It is only one's thoughts that fill a room with something more than furniture." - Wallace Stevens

I can respect that stance even if I can't understand it.

 

[AtMostOkay]

I was raised in an extreme form of Pentecost, with my father as its violent leader. I, too, lost all faith (very long ago) and do envy those for whom religion provides comfort.

 

[hatelife]

I often feel the same way. I used to be a little religious when I was a teen and I was depressed and suicidal back then too but being religious still helped a bit, I remember I prayed sometimes and I legit felt like someone was listening. I had those moments when I felt completely at peace, I felt warm and safe and like the sun of a better world was shining on me. And I had something to look forward to, I had an eternity in heaven to look forward to. Now it's all gone. I could try to get it back but I don't know if I want to.

Edit
I agree with what you say about reality, about how it's cold and disappointing and terrifying. I must be weak because sometimes I think I'd rather choose a beautiful fantasy instead.

hey I feel the same, fantasy has helped me so many times in the past too, dissociate and become someone else, but I dont get that alot these days, I had it comes in waves over the last 18 years or so, it helped me supress my anxiety and suicidal thoughts a bit and reality.

 

[TheAmazingCriswell]

I think the composer Dmitri Shostakovich, who suffered greatly under Stalin's rule, would be inclined to agree with you:
When asked if he believed in God, Shostakovich said "No, and I am very sorry about it."

 

[tardis]

imo there are good arguments for the existence of god, and lots of things we don't know. Like how does a world of brute facts give rise to mental states? How is it that free will is so integral to our experience but we cannot even make conceptual models of it in the external world? Why is there something rather than nothing?

With quantum mechanics and relativity even the material world cannot be explained in terms of a clockwork universe.

 

[Luchs]

Along with all the other stuff about how religion helps keep society cohesive and creates a self-justifying hierarchy so that rulers don't have to justify their rule (e.g. pharaohs and the Divine Right of Kings), I think organized religion dominates human cultures because it provides a reason to live even in very, very poor circumstances.

I was raised as a Baptist. No matter how much I was ostracized or abused by others, as long as I was right with God, I was a "good" person worthy of love. No matter how miserable life was, Heaven awaited. No matter how lost or confused I was, God could show me the way.

I envy those who can still believe. I know that would make me a very poor empiricist in the eyes of many - it certainly reveals a certain disrespect for the truth - but I am so very tired with little reason to keep going anymore.

If a fantasy is as good as it gets, bring it on! Reality is cold, ugly, disappointing, and terrifying.

I definetly agree with you. It is scientifically proven that people act better if they feel watched, so it is only logical to think that if someone believes a god is always watching, then they'd consciously behave in a way they believe to be morally correct. Religion 100% is important for societal cohesion. Plus it can act as a unifying factor for different groups of people. For example, while medieval Europe constantly fought wars with itself and every9ne hated eachother, they still were all Christians and could unify despite their grudges and differences to fight off perceived dangers.

 

[divorceddepression]

I believe in God.
It took 2 years of chasing him to find him. I had my own little miracles to give me tangible proof of God.
But when you find God the devil will attack you more than you've ever been attacked before. Even my own deeply religious parents turned against me.
I've come out the other side really scared of rocking boats and speaking my mind.

I have no disbelief God exists but I don't know what to expect from him. I don't know how to put the action of "trusting God" into action.

 

[Celerity]

I believe in God.
It took 2 years of chasing him to find him. I had my own little miracles to give me tangible proof of God.
But when you find God the devil will attack you more than you've ever been attacked before. Even my own deeply religious parents turned against me.
I've come out the other side really scared of rocking boats and speaking my mind.

I have no disbelief God exists but I don't know what to expect from him. I don't know how to put the action of "trusting God" into action.

Have you heard of the Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families (ACoA)? Might be your speed. A big part of it is trusting a "higher power".

 

[nex]

It is scientifically proven that people act better if they feel watched

Source?

Religion 100% is important for societal cohesion. Plus it can act as a unifying factor for different groups of people. For example, while medieval Europe constantly fought wars with itself and every9ne hated eachother, they still were all Christians and could unify despite their grudges and differences to fight off perceived dangers.

The reality of medieval Europe was that many of its small (Christian) states allied with the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire to get rid of their (Christian) regional rivals. Later, so-called Christians massacred each other in countless wars between Catholics and Protestants. To this day, social cohesion between Christians doesn't seem to work so well in Northern Ireland.

It's a nice idea in theory, but in reality Christians massacred people just as much as non-Christians did. And Christians massacred other Christians as much as they massacred non-Christians.

Does Christianity give an incentive to not commit evil acts? In theory it does, but reality differs. Countless massacres have been done in the name of Christ, be it against Muslims, against Protestants, against Catholics, against Jews, against Native Americans, and so on. They all thought God was on their side, so whatever they do is right.

Churches have rallied behind Hitler, going so far as calling him a new messiah. More recently, the LRA has committed horrible crimes in the name of Christ.

It's a nice idea that religion makes people more moral, but history proves this doesn't work.

 

[Celerity]

Source?

The reality of medieval Europe was that many of its small (Christian) states allied with the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire to get rid of their (Christian) regional rivals. Later, so-called Christians massacred each other in countless wars between Catholics and Protestants. To this day, social cohesion between Christians doesn't seem to work so well in Northern Ireland.

It's a nice idea in theory, but in reality Christians massacred people just as much as non-Christians did. And Christians massacred other Christians as much as they massacred non-Christians.

Does Christianity give an incentive to not commit evil acts? In theory it does, but reality differs. Countless massacres have been done in the name of Christ, be it against Muslims, against Protestants, against Catholics, against Jews, against Native Americans, and so on. They all thought God was on their side, so whatever they do is right.

Churches have rallied behind Hitler, going so far as calling him a new messiah. More recently, the LRA has committed horrible crimes in the name of Christ.

It's a nice idea that religion makes people more moral, but history proves this doesn't work.

*more moral for their in-group. I don't think we're talking about the same kind of morality here. We're talking more about order that keeps a community together - sometimes/often against outsiders.

 

[Stopthepain]

I cant believe in anything anymore.. i get sicker and sicker every Second is tourment. And i was a good loving Kind heartred Person.. i am deep in hell while egozentric people around me are kicking their life.. now i have even to end my suffering or life in a unreal nightmare for the rest of my life.
There is no fucking god ..

 

[Luchs]

Source?

The reality of medieval Europe was that many of its small (Christian) states allied with the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire to get rid of their (Christian) regional rivals. Later, so-called Christians massacred each other in countless wars between Catholics and Protestants. To this day, social cohesion between Christians doesn't seem to work so well in Northern Ireland.

It's a nice idea in theory, but in reality Christians massacred people just as much as non-Christians did. And Christians massacred other Christians as much as they massacred non-Christians.

Does Christianity give an incentive to not commit evil acts? In theory it does, but reality differs. Countless massacres have been done in the name of Christ, be it against Muslims, against Protestants, against Catholics, against Jews, against Native Americans, and so on. They all thought God was on their side, so whatever they do is right.

Churches have rallied behind Hitler, going so far as calling him a new messiah. More recently, the LRA has committed horrible crimes in the name of Christ.

It's a nice idea that religion makes people more moral, but history proves this doesn't work.

Don't know, I have no source on it. I am honsetly really annoyed by this, I'm just a normal person, I don't go around compiling archives of sources for every piece of information I have ever heard.

All that aside, of course people were still acting amorally, we are people after all, but it was definetly a thing to rally behind, at least before it fractured. Of course there were incidents like France selling out Austria to the Ottomans, but I'd say that is a product of the leaders only caring about power, like they always do. I'm not arguing for a feudal theocracy, I'm just saying that a little religion in the lives of the common people is beneficial.

*more moral for their in-group. I don't think we're talking about the same kind of morality here. We're talking more about order that keeps a community together - sometimes/often against outsiders.

Exactly. The more preferencial towards the in-group a system is, the more it discriminates against the outgroup. That is only logical.

 

[nex]

*more moral for their in-group. I don't think we're talking about the same kind of morality here. We're talking more about order that keeps a community together - sometimes/often against outsiders.

Not sure how large the scale has to be. On a large level, Christians against Christians has been a major source of war.

But even on a much smaller level: Some of the vilest people I've met personally were people trying to gain personal influence by dominating the local church, or even much worse, the local pastor trying to take sexual advantage of minors in the community. Some people are evil, and any "Christian" tag won't stop them.

Don't know, I have no source on it. I am honsetly really annoyed by this, I'm just a normal person, I don't go around compiling archives of sources for every piece of information I have ever heard.

No matter if you're annoyed, if you say something is "scientifically proven" you should be ready to back it up. Because people on the internet claim something's scientifically proven all the fucking time, never backing it up because in very most cases it's made up. I'm just asking you to provide a source to show that what you said is not among the made up garbage that pollutes the internet.

 

[Celerity]

Not sure how large the scale has to be. On a large level, Christians against Christians has been a major source of war.

But even on a much smaller level: Some of the vilest people I've met personally were people trying to gain personal influence by dominating the local church, or even much worse, the local pastor trying to take sexual advantage of minors in the community. Some people are evil, and any "Christian" tag won't stop them.

Yes, I'm not trying to justify religion or say it's great and makes you a great person. I'm saying that there are reasons it has come to dominate human cultures and that not all of those reasons are bad. If you believe in evolution, you should know that a trait only has to be statistically beneficial for it to become dominant in a population. It doesn't have to be good all of the time and can be really bad a minority of the time, but if it helps in most cases, it will be selected for.

 

[Luchs]

Not sure how large the scale has to be. On a large level, Christians against Christians has been a major source of war.

But even on a much smaller level: Some of the vilest people I've met personally were people trying to gain personal influence by dominating the local church, or even much worse, the local pastor trying to take sexual advantage of minors in the community. Some people are evil, and any "Christian" tag won't stop them.

No matter if you're annoyed, if you say something is "scientifically proven" you should be ready to back it up. Because people on the internet claim something's scientifically proven all the fucking time, never backing it up because 90% of the time it's made up. I'm just asking you to provide a source to show that what you said is not among the made up garbage that pollutes the internet.

I watched a documentary on psychology like a year ago where they said that, like I said, I'm a normal person and I don't keep an archival record of every fact I pick up. But isn't it just logical to say that? Think of a class of students and how they behave when a teacher isn't present.

 

[nex]

Yes, I'm not trying to justify religion or say it's great and makes you a great person. I'm saying that there are reasons it has come to dominate human cultures and that not all of those reasons are bad. If you believe in evolution, you should know that a trait only has to be statistically beneficial for it to become dominant in a population. It doesn't have to be good all of the time and can be really bad a minority of the time, but if it helps in most cases, it will be selected for.

Yeah I'm totally with you on that. I'm not trying to say religion is good or bad, I'm not saying it can't have a positive influence on someone, all I'm saying is that it doesn't necessarily make a person more moral, or make a society more cohesive.

I watched a documentary on psychology like a year ago where they said that, like I said, I'm a normal person and I don't keep an archival record of every fact I pick up. But isn't it just logical to say that? Think of a class of students and how they behave when a teacher isn't present.

No matter what you or I find logical, the term "scientifically proven" should only be used if it can actually be backed up by a scientific source. The reason being that, as I said, people on the internet make shit up all the time and claim it's scientifically proven, while in reality in most cases it's just random made up crap.

You and I can always say "I believe I've heard this" or whatever without referring to a source. But if I say "it is scientifically proven", I better be ready to back it up with a source.