I think you should...

[Wisdom3_1-9]

Okay, so this is going to be an unpopular opinion not shared by many of the people on this site whom I respect. But I think you should vote.

I just watched a 3-part series on voting in the United States that reinvigorated me. I've always been passionate about being involved in the electoral process. When I taught college students, I always advocated for their participation and actively worked to get them involved in voting. I'd knock on dorm doors on Election Day to ask if they'd voted. They were mostly happy to because it was their first chance to vote.

I understand why people are cynical and skeptical about it. I understand why people think it's useless and they have no real voice. I understand that those in power are generally more beholden to wealthy donors and corporations than to regular people. I understand the system is horribly flawed and that, to an extent, democracy is a fallacy. I don't blame anyone for feeling negative about the whole thing.

Still, I don't think we can give up. The final words of this series I just watched were as follows:

You don't have to surrender and just say, "I cannot do anything about it." We have to do something about it.​

​

The founders didn't want slavery to end and it did. The founders didn't want women to vote and they do. Free public education was not considered a right and we have it. So, I don't think giving up is a sensible response. And so, we have work to do.​

In my heart, I believe that's right. If we don't like the system, we have work to do to change it.

Okay. You can all bash me now.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think I shouldn't vote and I don't. I made this conscious decision after the Bush lost the popular vote to Gore but won the electoral college. I don't vote because I don't want to waste my time participating in the illusion that I have a say, or that any candidate is trustworthy and will act in the best interests of citizens. I told myself I would vote locally if there was an issue I cared about and/or felt was important, and that's only happened once in all these years.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I think I shouldn't vote and I don't. I made this conscious decision after the Bush lost the popular vote to Gore but won the electoral college. I don't vote because I don't want to waste my time participating in the illusion that I have a say, or that any candidate is trustworthy and will act in the best interests of citizens. I told myself I would vote locally if there was an issue I cared about and/or felt was important, and that's only happened once in all these years.

But wouldn't it be great if you (and so many others) weren't so disillusioned with the system? The system won't change if those who want it to change remain silent. As the quote points out, every progressive movement that has disrupted the system has been the result of people fighting for the cause and ensuring their voices are heard.

 

[checkouttime]

I think I shouldn't vote and I don't. I made this conscious decision after the Bush lost the popular vote to Gore but won the electoral college. I don't vote because I don't want to waste my time participating in the illusion that I have a say, or that any candidate is trustworthy and will act in the best interests of citizens. I told myself I would vote locally if there was an issue I cared about and/or felt was important, and that's only happened once in all these years.

I always had the impression you have. that it wouldn't make a difference. but then i saw the people vote on brexit and got the right vote!!!

I think its a bit different (i'll use the word 'bit' loosely!) in the US etc. its seems so bloody corrupt!!!

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

But wouldn't it be great if you (and so many others) weren't so disillusioned with the system? The system won't change if those who want it to change remain silent. As the quote points out, every progressive movement that has disrupted the system has been the result of people fighting for the cause and ensuring their voices are heard.

Yeah, it would be great if I weren't disillusioned with the system.

You're interpreting my conscious, active decision to not participate in presidential elections as not saying anything.

My vote is not my voice, not in this system. Voting in a presidential election is participating in the system and merely running in a hamster wheel with a belief it will go anywhere.

There are other means for using my voice if I want and choose to. But that's not the topic of discussion. You made an exhortation of what you think I should do, and I disagreed that I should or that I will.

No hard feelings, just being direct.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

There are other means for using my voice if I want and choose to. But that's not the topic of discussion. You made an exhortation of what you think I should do, and I disagreed that I should or that I will.

No hard feelings, just being direct.

No, I get it. It is everyone's choice as to whether they vote or not. I just believe that we make change more difficult when we remove ourselves from participating. I'd like to envision a future without the electoral college, which would require constitutional reform, which would require people to vote for candidates who want constitutional reform. When those people don't vote, nothing changes. This is why I believe fiercely in people participating in the democratic process.

Of course, if there are other meaningful and effective ways to use your voice, then I support those too. But I don't see how refusing to participate helps to change the culture or system in any way. If everyone who was disillusioned just didn't take part, power would be even more consolidated among those who already hold it. I'd like to believe we can change that.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

But I don't see how refusing to participate helps to change the culture or system in any way.

But participating in it as it is doesn't change it, it reifies its power. Ergo, hamster wheel. If there were a candidate such as you suggest, it would potentially be worth the effort, depending on the whole candidate.

Going to the polls is, for me, like making the effort to go to church and worship a god that doesn't exist because there's the slightest hope he does, and if he does, the slightest chance he will hear me, and if he does, the slightest chance he will give a shit about anything I have to say. I gave up on church seven years before I gave up on general elections. I'm very content with both choices.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I can understand what you're saying, but what if the system itself is the problem?
I would argue that the system cannot be changed through an internal voting mechanism which is expressly designed to perpetuate it.
By voting, you're tacitly agreeing that this is the type of system you want to live in, with maybe a few marginal modifications here and there.
Which is fine, if that's what you want.

Personally, I think that in order to create a scheme of human organization in which most people are not reduced to the status of cogs and units of monetary value, but instead are able to express their creative and human needs for meaning and community in non-hierarchical and non-coercive cooperative enterprises of free association, in which the better angels are able to flourish, the centralization of power and high concentration of wealth of late industrial capitalist 'democracies' need to be overcome.
To overcome it, something much more radical than voting is needed, and I'm not necessarily talking about some kind of communist-style revolution, since we all know how that experiment turned out in so many places in the 20th century.

 

[HadEnough1974]

I think I shouldn't vote and I don't. I made this conscious decision after the Bush lost the popular vote to Gore but won the electoral college. I don't vote because I don't want to waste my time participating in the illusion that I have a say, or that any candidate is trustworthy and will act in the best interests of citizens. I told myself I would vote locally if there was an issue I cared about and/or felt was important, and that's only happened once in all these years.

You do have a say, the question is, does your say "count". They can't suppress ALL the votes, so I vote and hold my breath and hope my vote gets counted. I'm Canadian, I don't vote in American elections. If I were Russian, I guess that would be another story ;)

 

[Lupgevif]

Doesn't change that your vote is still meaningless in the big picture and that voting is just helping a flawed system reign unchallenged. But whatever floats your boat. I'm gonna vote anyways. Mostly because here there is no choice, it is mandatory.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Doesn't change that your vote is still meaningless in the big picture and that voting is just helping a flawed system reign unchallenged. But whatever floats your boat. I'm gonna vote anyways. Mostly because here there is no choice, it is mandatory.

Preach.

The big emotion-driving myth of personal political participation in the US is expressed by the peer-to-peer exhortation to exercise one's right to vote. I just as joyfully exercise my right to not vote.

It would piss me off if voting were compulsory and someone said, "GPE, you must choose either an orange perpetrator of sexual assault, or a caucasian perpetrator of sexual assault." Or in the previous election, "GPE, you must choose either an overt liar who has used mafia-style means to retain power, or a covert liar who has used mafia-style means to retain power."

 

[BitterlyAlive]

I think I shouldn't vote and I don't. I made this conscious decision after the Bush lost the popular vote to Gore but won the electoral college. I don't vote because I don't want to waste my time participating in the illusion that I have a say, or that any candidate is trustworthy and will act in the best interests of citizens. I told myself I would vote locally if there was an issue I cared about and/or felt was important, and that's only happened once in all these years.

I agree with you. I was also talking with someone recently about how we have the right to not vote. People act like you're horrible if you choose not to, but...really, I don't think my vote would mean anything. Things are just too corrupt. I don't want to participate.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

On a humorous note, I got a chuckle out of the feed...

 

[catalepsy]

I'll only vote for a politician who offers me free booze. Anything less and it's an abject waste of time better spent finding booze,

 

[Good4Nothing]

I won't be voting. It's all a fraud. A dog and pony show. Haven't voted since 2004, when I tried to get that smirking moronic war criminal out of office. The game is rigged. Do you mean to tell me these 2 buffoons are the 2 best men in America? Bullshit. I ain't buying it. And I refuse to participate in a corrupt system that aims to make fools out of all of us. The powers that be are laughing all the way to the bank. At our expense.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I vote anyway because it's funny, but when I do I usually vote the opposite of what people want me to vote for. I really hate how people always try to engage me with "MAKE SURE TO VOTE", "JUST GET OUT THERE AND VOTE I DON'T CARE WHO LOL" rhetoric like they're so smug and certain that I'm going to vote for their guy. I might be spewing hyperbole here but I firmly believe nobody in the history of democracy genuinely wants other people to vote if they knew for sure those people were going to vote against them.

Anyone who tells you that "I just want people to vote, man" is being disingenuous and even if they won't admit it, they'll secretly regret telling anyone to vote if they knew that person was gonna vote against whoever they support. That feeling of regret borne as a result of my spite is what I live for each election.

 

[Wayfaerer]

I've always voted but I do so strictly out of principle. Even making a protest write-in vote is better than not voting at all, not that I'm going to be doing that.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I'm Canadian, I don't vote in American elections.

I'm also Canadian, but I've been living in the US since 2007. Depending on the results in November here, I may move back to Canada.

Doesn't change that your vote is still meaningless in the big picture and that voting is just helping a flawed system reign unchallenged.

The big emotion-driving myth of personal political participation in the US is expressed by the peer-to-peer exhortation to exercise one's right to vote.

Again, I understand your disillusionment, but I just don't agree with the idea that votes don't matter. I know you disagree with me, but I personally believe that if all the people who didn't vote because "their votes don't matter" did actually partake in the system, they would have the power to change things. Perhaps it's overly idealistic of me, but I believe in the ability of the system to change. I'm a gay, black immigrant. I owe a lot of my rights to those who fought to change the system, and to the people and movements who elected them.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Again, I understand your disillusionment, but I just don't agree with the idea that votes don't matter. I know you disagree with me, but I personally believe that if all the people who didn't vote because "their votes don't matter" did actually partake in the system, they would have the power to change things. Perhaps it's overly idealistic of me, but I believe in the ability of the system to change. I'm a gay, black immigrant. I owe a lot of my rights to those who fought to change the system, and to the people and movements who elected them.

What I disagree with is the premise of the thread, "I (Wisdom3_1-9) think you (GPE) should vote."

I have thoroughly explained why I don't vote and why I'm happy about it, and you keep defending your position about how important it is, but I perceive it as you defending your rightness in telling me what you think I should do, and won't let it go.

It's a pro-choice site. Tbh, I have these mild tense feelings in my stomach that are a warning signal to me that you are not honoring my choice, not hearing me, and are continuing to push into my personal space.

Analogy: "I (Wisdom3_1-9) think you (GPE) should call a suicide hotline." I've already said, "No, I've tried it, it doesn't work for me." You keep saying, "Yeah, I get it, I just believe that we," and "but if you don't talk to them how can help for suicidal people improve," and "Again, I understand your disillusionment with them, but I just don't agree that calling them doesn't make a difference. Perhaps it's overly idealistic..."

Be idealistic all you want, but for yourself. Others may come dance the happy dance with you but I'm not going to do it to make you happy or because you think I should. I said NO, so kindly back (tf) off, bro.

 

[BitterlyAlive]

why does this seem to be a spat between GPE and Wisdom when other people, such as myself, have expressed similar views?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

why does this seem to be a spat between GPE and Wisdom when other people, such as myself, have expressed similar views?

I think maybe because I'm speaking only for myself. I'm not bringing power against him by saying, "Other people are on my side." If I do, then that has the potential to set off signals that there's a fight, and the right brain takes over, rather than the logic of the left brain. I'm trying to appeal to logic, to show evidence of why I personally feel like this is a push into my space. I can't know if others feel the same.

Did that address what you said, or did I make an error and misinterpret want you were saying? Let me know if I did and I'll do my best to understand.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

Again, I understand your disillusionment, but I just don't agree with the idea that votes don't matter.

But what you're interpreting as disillusionment might be another person's realization that the whole system itself really is an illusion, a collective illusion which can only be maintained by people participating in it. I think this is a subtle but important difference

 

[BitterlyAlive]

I think maybe because I'm speaking only for myself. I'm not bringing power against him by saying, "Other people are on my side." If I do, then that has the potential to set off signals that there's a fight, and the right brain takes over, rather than the logic of the left brain. I'm trying to appeal to logic, to show evidence of why I personally feel like this is a push into my space. I can't know if others feel the same.

Did that address what you said, or did I make an error and misinterpret want you were saying? Let me know if I did and I'll do my best to understand.

I'm just bitchy and irritated because you seem to be targeted when others like me aren't

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm just bitchy and irritated because you seem to be targeted when others like me aren't

Wait, are you saying it seems you're being ignored while I am being acknowledged? If yes, I can understand feeling irritated at that!

But what you're interpreting as disillusionment might be another person's realization that the whole system itself really is an illusion, a collective illusion which can only be maintained by people participating in it. I think this is a subtle but important difference

Disillusionment:

A feeling of disappointment resulting from the discovery that something is not as good as one believed it to be.

"The high abstention rate at the election reflected the voters' growing disillusionment with politics."


I swear I didn't make that up!

 

[Phill]

It's good that you Americans have the option of voting or not. Here in Brazil we can't even choose, we're obligated to vote.

 

[Good4Nothing]

I'm just bitchy and irritated because you seem to be targeted when others like me aren't

I'll argue with you, little otter. What would you like to argue about?

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

What I disagree with is the premise of the thread, "I (Wisdom3_1-9) think you (GPE) should vote."

I have thoroughly explained why I don't vote and why I'm happy about it, and you keep defending your position about how important it is, but I perceive it as you defending your rightness in telling me what you think I should do, and won't let it go.

It's a pro-choice site. Tbh, I have these mild tense feelings in my stomach that are a warning signal to me that you are not honoring my choice, not hearing me, and are continuing to push into my personal space.

I completely acknowledge that the way the title is worded suggests that I want to impose my will on others. I want to state definitively right now that it wasn't my intent to do so and I sincerely apologize for anything I said to make others think that. In my head, I thought of "you" as a more general statement. A better title would've been, "Why I think voting is important." I do believe it is, and I felt compelled to share that with others on SS, currently the only social setting in which I feel safe. I remember others (including GPE) who had previously expressed objections to voting. I saw this as an opportunity to engage in discussion; a chance to air our viewpoints. I had hoped that my language in previous posts had made it clear that I wanted to be respectful of others' viewpoints, but clearly I did not come off that way, and I apologize.

Be idealistic all you want, but for yourself. Others may come dance the happy dance with you but I'm not going to do it to make you happy or because you think I should. I said NO, so kindly back (tf) off, bro.

This hurts me a bit. I've always felt like we've been very respectful and civil with each other, even when we've disagreed. I honestly thought that was the spirit of this conversation. I'm sorry I got things so wrong, and again, I apologize for anything I said that felt pushy, imposing, or disrespectful.

why does this seem to be a spat between GPE and Wisdom when other people, such as myself, have expressed similar views?

I really didn't view this as a "spat" at all until seeing all these angry messages. I simply thought we were carrying on a discussion about why we feel the way we do. We continued to offer counterpoints to the points that the other raised. I believe that's how we better understand each other. I didn't envision an escalation; just a respectful discussion. Again, I'm sorry it came across differently.

I'm just bitchy and irritated because you seem to be targeted when others like me aren't

I really wasn't targeting anyone. I was responding to points that were made with my own thoughts. This has really shaken me.

But what you're interpreting as disillusionment might be another person's realization that the whole system itself really is an illusion, a collective illusion which can only be maintained by people participating in it. I think this is a subtle but important difference

This raises an interesting point. What if everyone just decided not to vote. What would it mean for "democracies" like the US, where power is (in principle, anyway) derived from the people? And just to be clear, I am not raising this as a counterpoint, but as a branch of discussion, because I think it would be interesting to consider.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@Wisdom3_1-9, I hear that you are feeling hurt and confused. I'll disengage from this thread to give you the space to work through that and come to your own conclusions about my words, actions and intentions. I continue to wish you well.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

A feeling of disappointment resulting from the discovery that something is not as good as one believed it to be.

"The high abstention rate at the election reflected the voters' growing disillusionment with politics."


I swear I didn't make that up!

I know, I've just checked and that's the first definition that comes up in google. lol.

 

[Chupacabra 44]

I recommend any American who perceives their vote doesn't count go back and watch video of the hanging chad drama in Florida involving George W. Bush and Al Gore in 2020. Florida decide the presidential election.

Every vote counts!!

Don't care your party affiliation get out and vote, but if you don't vote, please don't bitch to me regardless of who wins in November.