I just got kicked from suicide forum

[Tintypographer]

I discussed the support I've gotten here and the lack of judgement and my thread got shut down and my account got blocked for 24 hours.

No one here has ever been anything but supportive of me. You all understand what it's like to be completely trapped.

My feelings are in order as absolutes:

1) I do not at all want to talk to someone from a suicide resource group or a counselor. I've been there, I've had those sstudpid discussions and they can't help.

2) I want the choice left to me

3) I will acknowledge that I could feel better but I have tried for 20 years from depression therapy and psychiatry to random attempts to just feel better with wellness and nothing works.

I live in a terrible abusive situation and I won't leave unless I can be guaranteed that I won't make others feel bad, not my kids, not my wife the abuser, not my parents or family and I don't want to hurt anyone in the immediate or long termsense.. that's complete! I don't want anyone to be upset, hurt, feel bad, cry and I've tried everything I can and with these rules in place which are the only way I will make the change I can't do it.

So I am left trying to find a way to take away the pain and this site has helped me while the other has banned me. Really fast and angrily too.

So I will leave them to their rules and judgements and I will take my bus.

 

[faust]

I am sorry you have been dealing with this for so many years.
Concerning help outside this forum, I once wanted to record some suicide helpline calls and upload somewhere to show that it is useless to call helplines for people who are suicidal for many years. Not many people know the consequences of such calls and how they can negatively affect them. Many people outside of this forum are still calling and thinking beforehand that somebody on the line will help them. But these lines are not for everybody. Councilors focus on suicide but not on the reasons and that can be harmful.

 

[sufferingalways]

Sorry to hear you are feeling so bad. I know how it feels to be trapped, and I have tried helpline/s that claim to be helpful. All tried to be gentle and mostly were, plus sensitive to how I felt. One that did help me the most was the Samaritans. They did ask why I felt this way, and allowed me the space to talk it all out, no judgement. I have also tried their email and text counterparts, which were less helpful as after a few messages someone who seems void of thinking matter appears .. sorry for the ramble.

Whatever you choose to do I hope you find peace, and I hope that somehow your situation changes to one that is not painful. You deserve to find help. Everyone does. I was abused through childhood so I know how it feels to be trapped with an abuser. Wishing you peace.

 

[Tintypographer]

I hate the script. I absolutely hate "I'm sorry you are feeling so down would you like to talk about it?". You don't have to validate me. If I'm suicidal I already know I feel like crap. You don't have to feel sorry. Or say you feel sorry. I'm not in a box. My problem is not solvable whihx is why it's been digging me for so many years. It sucks, I hate it and I don't want to deal with it anymore.

 

[Pan]

What else do you expect? There is a limit to the empathy that can be provided to you. Try to be a little gracious about it, even if it does hurt. Others have their own burdens too, you know?

 

[Tintypographer]

I actually expect the world to start shifting away from the median assumptions. I lead data science for the largest tech firm in the world. I honestly can't believe how many things in this world are based on the gaussian assumption of what typically world best. Here is one example: we have 183 thousand employees and we designed out benefits to fit what helps most of them from the perspective of childcare, maternity and what would be called special causes. That's fine when you have 50 thousand employees but when you reach our numbers your tails on the outer edge become enormous not in terms of hundreds of people but thousands of people. When I showed the way we could segment the care to include these special cases and leverage our size to apply changes to include single parent childcare hours we were able to close those gaps.

So if we assume that the number of severely depressed suicidal people has increased and assuming that population of those searching for either a site we are on right now or help in sorting out their current feeling is beyond a point where normal is capturing that best case of the population, can we look at what the size of the groups are who are outside of that "best practice need". If the script that says "I'm so sorry you feel that way, can you tell me what is making you down" is a trigger and non help or even increase in depressive episode for 2 percent of the population and we are talking about 1 million people at a given time then for those 2000 people in a suicidal depressive state couldn't there be a pre question that asks, "are you in an emotional state where neutral language and redirects of how you feel are not helping because of dichotomous (black and white, all or nothing) thinking and need to speak to a different trained specialist?"

One thing I've learned is that when you have an ache or pain or though pattern it is part of what a group of other people have already. I'm betting that on this forum right now are a lot of people who have been in situations about to take their own life whose thought pattern from borderline personality or OCPD or simply severe depression had them in a loop of "I either go back in time and make the xx event go away or I kill myself". In that situation which is a common thought pattern in the above (say 2 percent of the population including myself) what you absolutely do not want to hear is the standard diffusive redirect. That likely works in the broadest cases.

I'm not speaking of what I expect from the suicide volunteer; you are correct, they are just volunteering just like the poor human resources benefits services providers at my company. When I approached management with a detailed study that showed the number of people affected the benefit was shown and we made changes

I believe it is ok to say "I hate the script" and I believe that if we polled people on a site like this we would find that a group of them go into a further spiral with the "grey language medium chill" language and script.

To say it costs money is and is not true. What I found is that the expense was offset by other things in the benefit world. In this case a pre chat decision tree asking some pre questions using something like zingtree to classify the people. It's like the questions of "are you in immediate danger if so call 911"

I'm curious, is 911 in the states more equipped to deal with in a near suicide attempt or do the paramedics dispatched have the same level of suicide training that most people have, again this middle of the road medium chill and assertions that "we need to talk and I'm here to talk to you"

I don't expect someone to cater directly to me. Ever. But I do expect that the process and state of the art approach to care take into account fringes. When you have a disease, doctors do not try to bring your severe abdominal pain problems back to what they learned about headaches just because that's what most people have as a problem.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I like your thinking.

What would you like to happen? Pro-choice like help, as it is offered here, in person? Wouldn't that necessitate big changes in policy and cultural attitudes towards suicide, 'mental illness', etc .. ? Because it is quite obviously impossible for professionals nowadays to respect a persons autonomy in making this decision, even if they wanted to.

 

[Tintypographer]

No that's probably not the best way to do this based on my experience in very large enterprise companies and studying internal processes and controls. In a process and policy question like this it first takes a study and background data. If we looked at the metadata for this site, could we determine the numbers of people and begin to understand what helps and hurts people.

One example in a large study I was involved with at a massive computer company. We had 200 thousand employees and int that about 120k of them were involved in customer sales. There were four pillars that were the single highest value for the company. Basically integrity, success, service and winning. I did a large study on hiring and traits from an org psychology perspective on what made a success. What we learned is that basically the best sales people from a success perspective were the rock bottom of integrity. They were total weasels. They could avoid breaking the law but what the organization needed was a person who when they cold called at a hospital or bank with a sign that says "no soliciting" they would smile and tell the receptionist "yes I have an appointment with your chief IT officer, I think is name is Dan" and she would say you mean "Andy" and they would say "yes, Andy, that's right".

The point was that when I shared this with the HR people they were aghast that anyone with lowered integrity scores would be a good hire and when I showed it to executive management they realized that success wasn't simply a measure of having the highest personal integrity if the sales had to be made. I wasn't arguing the right vs wrong. It is all data and what you decide to do with it.

We have a suicide forum on the "white shiny side" of suicide discussion. No talk about thoughts if you think you might be planning a suicide, no discussion of alternative sites, and no questioning the status quo of the current scripts, treatments and discussions.

I it possible that we can take the full data set of everyone on both types of sites and really apply learning. If there are tens of thousands of people on these sites all considering, contemplating and posting about suicide then we can begin to understand what the outliers are and how things are not perfect.

I feel that if you are running one of the sites with admin based only on one narrow set of views then it's not really a way to provide help, it's a pet project of your own bias.

I am more then willing to help, I have a MD and PhD. I was a professor of materials engineering and epidemiology at a major medical school and then moved to a larger internal hedge fund within a bank and now lead internal data science, AI and process control for the largest private computer company in the world.

As far as what I could offer to do, I would sign a full non disclosure pact with both forum sites and set up an API to both sites and make the data completely anonymous and encrypted and then run dozens of analyses to characterize people, understand their interactions build semantic and syntax natural language processing models and then publish the findings so that we could ask the question at the clinical level if the current script and treatment options for suicidal people should be reviewed.

That's where I would start. This data is rich, deep and obviously there is a gap somewhere in the treatment or psychological discussions associated with this subject.

 

[oopswronglife]

There used to be several forums where you could discuss things openly in all regards. Those forums did more good than any support group or therapist. Between trolls and companies caring about image and money that landscape has been pretty much wiped out. This is the best option and it has some major issues. To me there is nothing worse than victims belittling, invalidating, and taking their shit out on other victims. It should never happen. It's unconscionable and it's wrong it happened to you. I also get sick of the "what did you expect" sort of reply you got. It's odd how people seem to so often jump to defend bad behavior at the expense of the victim...when the victim isn't them. It's odd how much time and energy is spent invalidated those who suffer, explaining and justifying those who cause it, and so often this is done by other people who should "get it" which makes it hurt worse and prove that ultimately most people are in it all for themselves...and just because one suffers and is a victim too doesn't make them kind, empathetic, or good. Lots of mean and selfish people in even forums like this...lots of unstable ones too.

 

[Pan]

I am asking for sympathetic response, but when it involves anger and rage, I have to draw a line; when tintypographer vents her spleen, that's great, I guess, but not-so-great in the final analysis. Tintypographer wants so desperately to be loved and nurtured; she is crying out to be healed. Unfortunately, this cry goes unanswered; that is, finally, the luck of the draw. Sorry, but there are limits.

I actually expect the world to start shifting away from the median assumptions. I lead data science for the largest tech firm in the world. I honestly can't believe how many things in this world are based on the gaussian assumption of what typically world best. Here is one example: we have 183 thousand employees and we designed out benefits to fit what helps most of them from the perspective of childcare, maternity and what would be called special causes. That's fine when you have 50 thousand employees but when you reach our numbers your tails on the outer edge become enormous not in terms of hundreds of people but thousands of people. When I showed the way we could segment the care to include these special cases and leverage our size to apply changes to include single parent childcare hours we were able to close those gaps.

So if we assume that the number of severely depressed suicidal people has increased and assuming that population of those searching for either a site we are on right now or help in sorting out their current feeling is beyond a point where normal is capturing that best case of the population, can we look at what the size of the groups are who are outside of that "best practice need". If the script that says "I'm so sorry you feel that way, can you tell me what is making you down" is a trigger and non help or even increase in depressive episode for 2 percent of the population and we are talking about 1 million people at a given time then for those 2000 people in a suicidal depressive state couldn't there be a pre question that asks, "are you in an emotional state where neutral language and redirects of how you feel are not helping because of dichotomous (black and white, all or nothing) thinking and need to speak to a different trained specialist?"

One thing I've learned is that when you have an ache or pain or though pattern it is part of what a group of other people have already. I'm betting that on this forum right now are a lot of people who have been in situations about to take their own life whose thought pattern from borderline personality or OCPD or simply severe depression had them in a loop of "I either go back in time and make the xx event go away or I kill myself". In that situation which is a common thought pattern in the above (say 2 percent of the population including myself) what you absolutely do not want to hear is the standard diffusive redirect. That likely works in the broadest cases.

I'm not speaking of what I expect from the suicide volunteer; you are correct, they are just volunteering just like the poor human resources benefits services providers at my company. When I approached management with a detailed study that showed the number of people affected the benefit was shown and we made changes

I believe it is ok to say "I hate the script" and I believe that if we polled people on a site like this we would find that a group of them go into a further spiral with the "grey language medium chill" language and script.

To say it costs money is and is not true. What I found is that the expense was offset by other things in the benefit world. In this case a pre chat decision tree asking some pre questions using something like zingtree to classify the people. It's like the questions of "are you in immediate danger if so call 911"

I'm curious, is 911 in the states more equipped to deal with in a near suicide attempt or do the paramedics dispatched have the same level of suicide training that most people have, again this middle of the road medium chill and assertions that "we need to talk and I'm here to talk to you"

I don't expect someone to cater directly to me. Ever. But I do expect that the process and state of the art approach to care take into account fringes. When you have a disease, doctors do not try to bring your severe abdominal pain problems back to what they learned about headaches just because that's what most people have as a problem.

You are grandiose; you IMAGINE that you lead a big tech firm, that you have a PhD. And m.d. get real.
Prove it, other words —- show us the certificates of your accomplishments. I know that neither are forthcoming. Your grandiosity is showing; you will more than likely be on the defensive, in a vain attempt to prove what you are NOT. Face it; deal with it, embrace it, love it, even if it hurts.
The Gaussian number? I am quite familiar with it. Shall we discuss it?
I don't buy a word of it.

 

[Suez]

I discussed the support I've gotten here and the lack of judgement and my thread got shut down and my account got blocked for 24 hours.

No one here has ever been anything but supportive of me. You all understand what it's like to be completely trapped.

My feelings are in order as absolutes:

1) I do not at all want to talk to someone from a suicide resource group or a counselor. I've been there, I've had those sstudpid discussions and they can't help.

2) I want the choice left to me

3) I will acknowledge that I could feel better but I have tried for 20 years from depression therapy and psychiatry to random attempts to just feel better with wellness and nothing works.

I live in a terrible abusive situation and I won't leave unless I can be guaranteed that I won't make others feel bad, not my kids, not my wife the abuser, not my parents or family and I don't want to hurt anyone in the immediate or long termsense.. that's complete! I don't want anyone to be upset, hurt, feel bad, cry and I've tried everything I can and with these rules in place which are the only way I will make the change I can't do it.

So I am left trying to find a way to take away the pain and this site has helped me while the other has banned me. Really fast and angrily too.

So I will leave them to their rules and judgements and I will take my bus.

Im confused, as a star pupil how did you manage to get yourself kicked out?

 

[Tintypographer]

I was kicked out of a forum called suicide forum for discussing this site and the support I received here.

That other forum doesn't allow discussions of sites that are pro choice.


I discussed the support I received here and how good it makes me feel.

 

[Pan]

Then, go to that other site...why clutter this site with your baggage? Enough, already!