i can respond to some of these. I havent been diagnosed yet, but im 90% sure im a covert narcissist (so maybe some of this wouldnt be applicable if you delt with an grandiose narcissist). About whether we believe our own lies or not, i would say mostly yes. But its not really helpful to view things in terms of truth or misinformation, its more important to see it as avoiding danger. We have a specific self image that we HAVE to maintain, otherwise it feels like literal death. So we often will say or do anything to preserve that self image. Its actually a topic im grappling with right now as im typing this, as i only really accepted that i most likely have NPD only a few hours ago (ive been going back and forth on it for years). So do we believe the lies? Honestly, in my case, i often felt self aware that i was bullshitting and that i cant possibley be the victim for every scenario, but i just kinda... shrugged it off. The idea was just so fucking uncomfortable, that i just dissociated and avoided the topic, or flat out rationalized it like "hurr durr, but im not aksually playing the victim!!! this just coincidentally happens to be yet another example of how im 100% right and everyone else is a cruel bully!!!".
Idk, im pretty delusional, and im willing to bet other narcissists are too. We very often believe our lies, and when we are caught in a lie, it feels so gut wrenching that we do back flips and jump through hoops to convince ourselves that we are still the hero or wounded victim yet again. In my case, I definitely would spend hours pondering and crafting a realistic story of myself to sell to people. I needed people to see me the way i saw myself: a wounded victim. Whats crazy is that i didnt even see this as manipulation at the time. I sincerely felt wronged, and that i was simply defending myself and "getting my story straight". In hindsight, it was just image management. I wasnt being my own lawyer, i was just manipulating others. I'm willing to bet other pwNPD also have similar patterns, regardless of overt or covert. We manipulate, but dont see it as manipulation in the moment, or maybe not for a long time afterwards (if at all). Its almost like we sleep walk into abuse/manipulation, and when others inform us of what we are doing, the accusations are too difficult to come to terms with, so in my case, i intentionally ignored it out of ego self preservation, and rationalized it. As for if its conscious or not? Both in my opinion. In my case, i had real moments of self awareness. Like countless times in the past 10 years, the thought occured to me like "Damn i literally just manipulated this person. I just lied through my teeth, for the 100th time. Why do i keep doing this? this is why everyone hates me, oh god im evil. WTF", and then i start to get super defensive and start using my defense mechanisms to make the ego-threat go away. Notice how it isnt followed up with apathy necessarily, the shame gets pretty bad after (id guess for others as well). But acknowlding that I'm being abusive makes me feel like an irredeamable monster, so i just lash out and get angry and rationalize my behavior, i dont take the time to correct it because flogging myself feels more corrective (even though it isnt, it just leads to me continuing the abusive behavior as a defense mechanism to compensate for the flogging im already doing to myself). Its complicated i guess, like a hamster wheel of self hatred and abusive/defensive posturing. It takes a LONG time to notice what youre doing, and an even longer time to acknowledge your own active participation in those behaviors that make it self serving. Once you notice that youre running full sprint on this weird hamster wheel, suddenly hopping off of it feels like youre gonna die, so oftentimes we just go back to continuing the behavior even though running forever feels like shit, but its all we know. This goes for both Grandiose and Covert imo.
as a covert narc, i dont feel villianized often because i put off a pretty good self-pitying image of myself. Most people fall for it unfortunately. However, during the 20% of the time when people see right through me, it feels annihilating. Some relatives and highschool teachers were like that, and I was desperate to get them to view me differently. Online however, yes i feel villianized. When i read descriptions of narcissists and it started feeling relatable, i felt like a fugitive. Like someone who doesnt deserve to be a part of regular society. Thats a big part of why i avoided the label myself, up until super recently. But i also couldnt avoid the topic, for the past 6 years its been such a heavy hitting topic for me, because i related so much to it, and i wanted to "fix myself" and stop being such a monster.
Which is the answer to your other question, would I get rid of NPD? Absolutely. Its ruined my life. Its like if you were sleep walking into abusing people, and then you realize that youre responsible for all of it, for not addressing your sleep walking problem. In your mind, you just had to sleep soooooo badly and couldnt hold it in, so other people had to deal with what you do while youre asleep. I dont know if that makes any sense. But once it starts piecing together that youre a sleepwalking monster, it makes you never want to leave the house. Especially if there was a waste land of broken friendships, relationships, and lost opportunities alongside the way to realizing it. You'll feel like youre cursed. Which is a whole thing on its own regarding NPD, we feel like angels and demons at the same time if i recall correctly. In some ways, i did wish people were more sympathetic, but in my current state of mind, I also would like if that sympathy was from a distance. Both for their sake and mine. The grim reality is that personality disorders like NPD have some genetic predisposition. We are mostly made via trauma, but there is a very real influence of our genetic traits we are born with. In my case, i sincerely believe that i was already pre-disposed to heightened shame sensitivity for example. I dont take criticism well, as an individual. However, i did go through a decent amount of bullying/harassment growing up, that no doubt contributed to my disordered thinking. But all in all, it paints a complicated picture, because smarter people than me cant even parse through nature vs nurture of human existnce, so its best to just leave the topic alone and just focus on the behaviors that are in front of you. For pwNPD, that idea is referred to as integration, where you dont see youself as a split of pure evil or pure goodness/heroism. Youre simply ordinary, in a good way. You integrate both sides of yourself into a coherent and humanizing yet flawed image. An image that can change and not be compartmentalized and tortured by an emotionally volative rollarcoaster mindset. As for does it feel good, yes and no. It makes me feel super powerful and superior, but also it makes me feel like i dont live in reality. Im either a demon or an angel with no space in between. In truth, i hated it more than i liked it. I'd imagine that if my life wasnt in total shambles, id be saying i liked it more than I hated it, so it probably depends. But I will say that there is something so freeing and humanizing about breaking from that habit of splitting. That superior feeling i mentioned earlier oftentimes feels gross and surreal. Like i live in a cartoon where nuance and grey areas dont exist. I know i cant be the only narcissist who feels it. Its like what I imagine taking blood money from the mafia feels like. The boost to your ego feels nice, but its unearned in a weird way... I notice integration gives me a healthier sense of self because i dont have to endlessly cater to a fake image of myself. I just focus on what I am in reality, without all the extra fluff. its less flattering, it makes me feel pathetic in a lot of ways, but the self compassion i feel eases the tension, and I come away with relief almost. Like the world just makes more sense now, im not a demon or an angel, im just another human with problems like everyone else. So no, I hate NPD. I almost feel bipolar, my moods swings wildly everyday because the slightest most neutral interaction can ruin my entire day. And yes, for covert narcissists specifically, id go out on a limb and say that we always feel like imposters and under threat. We are either angels or demons, no in between. Because we feel the world revolves around us, good or bad lol.
I know i typed a lot of slop, but i hope you understand the person in your life with NPD better now. Keep in mind, i have a specific kind of NPD, so much of what i said may not apply. And Im also not a clinician, so may have said some incorrect info here and there. But thats my honest to god experience
@NormallyNeurotic What do you think of this? Do you relate at all?
