LONG MESSAGE ALERT
If this is too much to ask, please ignore. I believe I grew up with a narcissist. Asides from regular bullying, they often lied about or to me. Either gas lighting- so- stuff like: 'We agreed to this- don't you remember?' Type of thing- to get their own way. Or, outright accusing me of (serious) things I hadn't done. To friends, teachers and parents.
I'm not sure you even participate in this kind of behaviour but, if you do, I suppose my question is: Do narcissists believe their own lies? But then- how? Do they just imagine stuff that hasn't happened at all? Or, do they realise it's a lie but, convince themselves the lie is reasonable?
So, you definitely can't tell if someone is a narcissist just from whether they are selfish and gaslit you. Unfortunately, media has told us that those two things coincide with NPD, when they've existed in abuse for years and narcissists aren't really more likely to do it than any run-of-the-mill controlling abuser.
I did have a tendency to lie when I was younger, but they were mostly to make myself seem more important. I would often one-up others because the moment I was in the presence of someone with more impressive experiences than me, I felt inferior—especially since I haven't actually had that many normal human experiences to begin with. I never even step foot in a high school!
I have met those who either have NPD or narcissistic traits tha do lie in the way you experienced, but the main variable wasn't the NPD, but the privilege they experienced that enabled them to act that way. Privilege corrupts any human, narcissist or not.
I've been a total bitch as a teen and I definitely lied and likely did minor gaslighting at least once. But more so because I was too afraid of the consequences of my actions, so I tried to convince then it never happened. Sort of a tactic to avoid responsibility and the helplessness you can feel when faced with the fact that you hurt someone?
I never really gaslit for fun, it was always to avoid reality as a whole. I was the KING to denial as a kid
As for believing the lies, it depends. I didn't believe most of the "one-upping" lies I did to look talented.
There were, however, lies that I would try to convince myself were real. When I fucked up friendships, sometimes it would be "they started it" or something. You don't genuinely believe it, it's not psychosis... you just... bury the truth in your mind and refuse to look at it. Deep down you know it's there. Schrödinger's truth?
This is actually an experience I have met other narcissists who do not relate to this, by the way. NPD presents in many ways, some that most would never believe in NPD. My constant need to feel useful and feel like my life isn't stagnating is a current symptom of my NPD now that I'm less snobby, for example.
If the lie is to manipulate, again- how conscious is it? Do they know they are trying to manipulate the person? Is the whole process conscious? They work out the most effective thing to say to get what they want? Or, is it just a desperate need for something that drives them?
There's a sort of spectrum of consciousness here. We're almost always aware to a certain extent, save for a few exceptions.
Those are:
- Young, developing narcissists (teens and kids often have a harder time controling actions, and can fall into patterns faster because their brainnis more survival oriented)
- Narcissists who are still currently victims in an abusive situation (since NPD is a survival mechanism, this can make it harder for the person to keep themselves grounded enough to recognize ally from foe)
- People who grew up in/exist in an environment that discourages taking accountability for actions (e.g. one of the many reasons autism is comorbid with narcissistic traits is because some "autism moms" will let their autistic sons get off scott-free for everything—then that combined with the emotional/medical neglect and trauma those kids experience with a mom like that, it can make the kid more likely to develop NPD as he grows)
- Maybe a few other examples I can't think of?
Over all, most of us are aware to a certain extent by the time we reach adulthood, even if we are subconsciously or consciously burying the truth in an attempt to not question our very being. It's a trauma response.
And I want to specify, NPD doesn't actually coincide with a higher rate of abusers like media claims.
When I say "we are aware," I don't mean "when we abuse," I mean "when we do any sort of shitty action." Most often times it's just showing a snobby, self-righteous attitude (if the narcissist has that trait, as not all do), or something benign but selfish.
Oh and another important thing is to understand how NPD works. It's caused by the fact that we essentially have no self esteem. It's an empty jar that we fill with the praise of others or empty with the criticisms of others. Our self-esteem only exists in relation to others and how we are perceived, we cannot regulate normally.
So we subconsciously try to make ourselves seem "important" in hopes that others see us that way. Or we genuinely fall into the delusion that we are that way (like I said, usually happens with adolescents).
If a narcissist does choose to abuse, though, the likelihood is that they abuse for the same reasons as all non-narc abusers. Power.
Do you feel villainized often? I have to be honest and say I have such negative connotations with (suspected) narcissists. The whole reason I developed ideation to begin with was because of this one person. So, I find it hard to overcome my bias.
I try to reason that something must have happened to make them like that. That they most likely suffered/ suffer too but I struggle to feel so much sympathy if a person has caused so much damage themselves. (Not to say you have.) Do you wish people were more sympathetic towards you?
I do have the inherent knee-jerk reaction to feel villianized. Funny story, though. I'm a disabled, queer, transgender person in a conservative state with a shitty wxtended family. In a way, I am being actively villianized by the government and my family.
So I've had to walk the line of reminding myself "they aren't villianizing
me, just marginalized people
like me." It's a tough process to not slip into bad patterns when someone genuinely harms me. DBT is helpful for avoiding this type of black and white thinking, I find.
I want to touch on the topic of youe abuser now for a second. First, thanks for talking to me and asking questions. I know it's kinda weird to thank someone for that, but if your bias was truly unmanageable, you wouldn't be here. Or like. You'd be insulting me or something
would you believe that some people genuinely do that on AMAs like this
MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Whether your abuser was hurt or not in the past did not "make them like this." Maybe it gave them traits, maybe NPD if you are correct. But trauma survivors are still responsible for their actions.
For years I tried to explain away what my dad did to me. Looked in diagnostic texts and studies and deluded myself into believing that was the answer. But here's the thing. Whether he has any sort of disorder or not... he chose to hurt me. You don't do that to a human, let alone a child, just because you're "like that."
One of the hardest pills to swallow in abuse recovery is that many abusers don't have or need a reason. They abuse you because they like power. Just like all the power-grabbing people in the world. They hurt you because they didn't give a shit about you enough to
not.
It's long and grueling, but reframing your thoughts of your abuser is the one thing that helped me the most. Neither of us deserved the way we were treated, and even if our abusers were hurt by others, it's not our responsibility to feel sympathy about that. We can acknowledge, we can understand that it played a PART, but we can also say "at the end of the day... you chose to do this to me."
So, no. If I hurt someone badly, I don't want "sympathy." There was a time where I thought I did, but I realized later that it's just misdirected trauma response. I want people to feel sympathy for my existence, my experiences, the things that I cannot control—
not any fucked up actions I chose to make afterwards.
Do you think there are levels of narcissism? To some extent, perhaps we all have traits. But, do you find yourself looking at others and thinking they are more affected than you?
We sort of all do? Keep in mind that personality disorders are just collections of symptoms caused by trauma reframing our brain. The reason they're common enough to put in the DSM is because the human brain already has default "paths" on how to react to trauma.
Lashing out or avoidng abandonment like thise with Borderline Personality Disorder do is an inherently human reaction.
Desperately trying to find a sense of control like those with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder do, is an inherently human reaction.
Viewing ourselves as better—or worse, a lot of people forget that grandiosity just means you see yourself as "a lot" of or "unique" in something, so "I am uniquely bad :(" is still a valid NPD experience—in an attempt to regulate or understand what happened to us is an
inherently human reaction.
As a narcissist, your only way to survive abuse or trauma might end up being "I'm better than them, so obviously they just envy me. That's why they're hurting me."
Or it might end up being "I am uniquely evil and bad, so they abused me because I am that way. I am the most hated person ever. Please feel bad for me."
The idea of being unimportant, that we were just so damn unimportant that they didn't care whether we were hurting or not... that's one of our worst nightmares. And sometimes that's something a kid can't survive knowing. That we were just a notch in a belt for the abuser—that we suffered for no reason. Some kids need a reason. And for those kids, their brain protects them.
We need to be important, because otherwise why do we exist?
NPD is just a section of a diagnostic book that shows you when natural human traits become maladaptive. So many disorders boil down to "too much/too little (blank)" and NPD is no exception. So yes, everyone sort of has narcissism, it's part of our inherent animalistic drive to survive.
If you could be rid of your NPD, would you be? Or, are there elements of it that are nicer? Do you feel genuinely confident in yourself or, does it feel fake and, always under threat?
Had to pause to process this question because it really ties into a lot of the trauma processing I've been doing lately and the feelings that I'm ruined because of my trauma as a kid.
I don't know. I genuinely don't know. Life would certainly be easier. I wouldn't wish NPD on anyone honestly. Yeah, it feels extra nice to be praised as a narcissist, but that's lnly because the baseline if our self esteem is nonexistent. Like when you eat shitty food and it tastes like a 5 star dinner because you're hungry, yaknow?
Plus I deal with so much guilt regarding me feeling good when people praise me since my Moral OCD decided to be a bitch and latch my obsessions onto my narcissism. Now I try to obsessively "humble" myself when I get "too happy with being praised" which obviously is not how that fucking works lmao. I'm just feeling the same amount of happiness that non-narcs get from praise, but for me it's water in a desert. Still, it feels like more so my brain hates me for it (people really need to talk about how trauma disorders interact with eachother more).
I'd say "under threat" is a pretty accurate term for multiple reasons. I could feel on top of the world, but the higher I get, the more dread I feel because I know one off-handed comment could make me fall flat on my face. All narcissists are fragile, deep down. We can't really escape it. I can't imagine who I would be if I was actually strong.
Therapy does help. I just have to hold on to that.
I have massive admiration for people who identify their own issues and try to work on them. Thank you for the opportunity to ask these questions. Obviously- feel free to ignore any that push too far. Also- they are based off of a person I believed was/ is a narcissist. They may not even be relevant to you.
No problem, and thanks for asking them! Sorry for the super rambly breakdown of your entire message though
What are the most annoying common misconceptions about NPD that you stumble upon on the internet? Do you know any movies, tv shows or books that depict characters with NPD accurately?
Most common misconceptions
oh boy, want an essay? Just kidding.
Mostly that we supposedly see others as subhuman and step on every person in our way. Media basically Disney villain-ified a super nuanced topic about grandiosity and ran with it.
Also "narcissistic abuse" as a whole.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... there's a reason that almost every "narc abuse expert" is selling a class or a book. It taps into the inherent urge we have as trauma survivors to believe that our abuse "bad enough" by telling us "Your trauma was this super insidious types of abuse that is super severe and done by the evilest of people." As someone who has a cultish background, I can fully say that almost every "narc abuse" oriented space is essentially a cult.
Every "narc abuse tactic" they list has existed for decades before they even came up with the term itself. Gaslighting was once an important term. Now it's just boiled down to "when narcissists lie" to some people.
Almost every abuser will have hurt you in a way that qualifies for "narc abuse." That is for a reason. They give vague tactics that all controlling abusers (especially groomers) do and say "if you experienced this, you're in on our special group!"
Ironically, it breeds narcissism. I know multiple narcissists who only realized that they themselves have NPD after escaping the "narc abuse" mindset and realizing that they were drawn to it because it made them feel as if their trauma was special, validated.
OH gosh and don't get me started on "people with no empathy." Here's a tip: If someone tells you that having no empathy makes you evil, but they don't even know that there are multiple types of empathy... immediately discard their opinion.
Narcissists (often, but aren't required to) struggle with emotional/affective empathy and sometimes compassionate empathy. Studies show most of us can show high levels of cognitive empathy.
And overall, having empathy doesn't matter. Affective Empathy is just literally feeling someone's emotions, them spreading to you. Cognitive Empathy is logically understanding why the person feels that way. Compassionate Empathy is just the urge to help when someone is hurting.
But I can still try to understand even if I don't FEEL it.
I can still be respect it, even if I don't UNDERSTAND it.
I can still HELP you even if I don't have the urge to.
Because we all do things we don't "want" to do. That's life. I've had moments where I'm so emotionally exausted that I temporarily lose Compassionate Empathy, but if you are in need I'll still try my best. Or at least tell you that I care, even if I can't help yet.
Lack of empathy is not evil. Even those with no urge to show compassion can and do regularly. Not to mention that "not showing compassion" doesn't automatically mean "hurting someone." Sometimes, it's seeing that someone is crying and going "I have too much on my plate right now"
Anyway. So glad you asked about characters. I know of no good canonical narcissist representation. Buuuuut...
I really like Ride the Cyclone. And Ocean and Noel are two sides of the same narcissistic coin. (Sort of spoilers for the ending but no details, just character development)
Ocean wants desperately to be seen as better by others, to be useful, successful. She gets mad at those who don't constantly chase success, she positions herself as the "righteous one" in all situations. She's envious that she can't just enjoy her life as it is and lashes out because of that.
In the end? She realizes that perfection was not the goal. That she doesn't have to be "important" to be admired, nor admired to be
loved. She takes her role as leader of the group, and instead of using it as a badge to feel better about herself, she uses it as a badge to help the people. A true leader.
On the flip side, Noel is obsessed with tragedy. He moans and complains about his life as the only gay man in Uranium (which is a traumatic experience obviously, but the musical makes it clear that he's WALLOWING in the grief, not processing it), and daydreams of living a life of sin, drugs, alcohol, sex, all to die tragically at the end. He desperately wants to be important, even if it's just to be "tragic enough" to be noticed.
And in the end, his lesson is similar to Ocean's.
Grandiosity shows in many forms. Ocean is a stereotype. Noel is not. But if you look at them both side by side, they have the same issue—and the same solution.
But yeah Ocean's last speech and parts in the finale song made me cry what of it
