Discussion I feel like if people were allowed to kill themselves they would want to kill themselves less

[TheFool]

Basically because they wouldn't be getting all the stigma around suicide thrown at them constantly. They would feel comfortable opening up and then they would be more likely to get help. But as it is people just wanna say suicide is selfish and immoral. And that's where we are right now.

 

[mattwitt]

Human nature can be goofy !

 

[Limbo]

Of course. If the option is there, there is no rush. Its like when I was quitting alcohol by tapering. When I didnt have the bottle ready in front of me I wanted to go and get a drink asap and once I did, I would many times leave it unopened for an hour or two. My desperation before was only the anxiety of not having the drink ready. Works the same with suicide.

edit* i see you were making a different point, nevermind. Although its related

 

[Lifeisatrap]

Exactly, the more trapped I feel, the more I want to excape and I'm sure others feel the same way. Nothing makes me more suicidal than societies reaction to it. Is there a right to live or a duty to live? The current state of affairs suggests the latter. Life would be far more bearable if it weren't mandatory.

 

[Rocky M]

Basically because they wouldn't be getting all the stigma around suicide thrown at them constantly. They would feel comfortable opening up and then they would be more likely to get help. But as it is people just wanna say suicide is selfish and immoral. And that's where we are right now.

Great points. I agree

 

[TheFool]

Of course. If the option is there, there is no rush. Its like when I was quitting alcohol by tapering. When I didnt have the bottle ready in front of me I wanted to go and get a drink asap and once I did, I would many times leave it unopened for an hour or two. My desperation before was only the anxiety of not having the drink ready. Works the same with suicide.

edit* i see you were making a different point, nevermind. Although its related

Nah I think that's comparable. When you know you can always end it and that doesn't mean anything bad about you, you're not adding the belief that you're a terrible selfish person for wanting death on top of whatever other problems made you consider suicide in the first place.

Specifically the fantasizing about suicide is comparable to having another drink. If you don't hate yourself more for every drink you have that's an important step, because the self hatred is what makes it so easy to rationalize in the first place. "I'm a bad person anyway, I'll never get better, what does it matter anyway?" Have another drink, and then you think, "Yep, I'm hopeless, otherwise I wouldn't have reached for the bottle. Might as well keep drinking."

I've never been at a point with drinking or any other substance to where I'd say I'm an addict, so maybe I'm saying shit that doesn't make sense, but that's how I see it anyway.

 

[TiredHorse]

I agree completely.

The one time I spoke (guardedly, obliquely) with a therapist, she didn't bat an eye that I had a tank of N2 at home, or that I occasionally looked at a gun. She nodded and agreed that contemplating suicide as a realistic option was a common and effective safety relief valve to prevent ones self from actually comitting suicide. Knowing it is an available choice helps us feel less trapped, and able to consider other options.

If we all knew we had that option, and that it wasn't taboo to talk about taking that option, or a stigma to have considered it, I feel would considerably reduce the number of people who availed themself of that option.

 

[TheFool]

Exactly, the more trapped I feel, the more I want to excape and I'm sure others feel the same way. Nothing makes me more suicidal than societies reaction to it. Is there a right to live or a duty to live? The current state of affairs suggests the latter. Life would be far more bearable if it weren't mandatory.

Exactly, you are suicidal for understandable reasons and yet society wants to shame you for even feeling that way, which makes you feel even more worthy of death. That's their message. Society is insane.

I don't know you, so perhaps people are right to say your leaving would be a real loss and that it's worth it for you to stay alive if you can, or perhaps they're wrong. But either way, they generally don't respect your right to choose for yourself, and that's a serious injustice. I believe that the right to death is a basic human right, and it goes hand-in-hand with the right to life, which is the most basic human right. Nobody is allowed to kill you without some crazy serious justification, so why should they be allowed to force you to live without some crazy serious justification as well?

The right to death might even be more basic than the right to life, because nobody chooses to be alive, and the only thing that balances that out is that we can choose to reject life after the fact.

 

[Schopenhauer]

I reach the opposite conclusion. If you lower the cost of something, it increases demand. Right now many people want to die, but are prevented by paternalistic laws. That's Econ 101.

It's not a bad thing, though. People will get what they want. Look at the lengths we have to go to achieve a peaceful death. The amount of human suffering on display here is staggering.

 

[TheFool]

I reach the opposite conclusion. If you lower the cost of something, it increases demand. Right now many people want to die, but are prevented by paternalistic laws. That's Econ 101.

It's not a bad thing, though. People will get what they want. Look at the lengths we have to go to achieve a peaceful death. The amount of human suffering on display here is staggering.

I think you're right but only in the short term. Given that our prime directive as humans is to survive, death is not really comparable to a Big Mac. Plus, with suicide there are no repeat customers, assuming the product puts out obviously. So if society collectively decided suicide was acceptable and used taxpayer dollars to provide the means, we'd see an initial spike followed by a gradual decrease until it stabilized at a low rate, mainly for people who were hopelessly ill and have no chance of living a good life.

I also think that the initial spike would be a wake up call for society and we'd start taking many issues more seriously, thus creating a better support system for all.

edit: actually death is kind of comparable to a Big Mac

 

[Schopenhauer]

I agree with the spike followed by a lower rate prediction. However, I still think the "base rate" will be higher than with current draconian laws. It's a fact that many people stay alive because they lack a peaceful method to die. I've lived 36 years because of this.

But the world would be a better place for those who choose to stay, I think. Knowing that you have an exit available can have wonderfully positive effects on quality of life. And it shouldn't even cost much to taxpayers. N is cheap to manufacture. A truly peaceful pill would cost less than $50.

 

[Ghab]

I'd only support free peaceful and accepted death methods if they were restricted by age, probably about 21. The adolescent mind does too much stuff on impulse, I believe it would be catastrophic. Of course under aged terminally ill kids would get the choice, but no I don't believe all kids should have the choice, it would have to be accepted by parents first before they could buy and use the methods until they're about 21.

 

[TAW122]

Exactly, well said. Most, if not all of the stigma around suicide is because society has decided that it is immoral and unacceptable. When people say "why didn't they open up" well the answer to that is "because society has either turned a blind eye to someone suffering until it's too late" or "they wouldn't listen to them without judgment and an open mind, but instead threaten them with involuntarily commitment (being held against one's will)." Personally, I think if there has been less of that, then there will be more people willing to open up and be honest.

As far as demand increasing initially, yes, the initial wave of people would be the ones who wanted to die but haven't been able to die peacefully and legally (without being locked up against their will for planning or even attempting). However, when there are mostly happy people left and very few sad people and with the population dwindling significantly (e.g. we are at almost 8 billion people in the world, and then imagine that number dropping to about 1 billion). Thus, as a result of that, there will be more incentive to treat people better, more resources for the remaining humans around, and of course less stigma overall.

 

[TheFool]

I agree with the spike followed by a lower rate prediction. However, I still think the "base rate" will be higher than with current draconian laws. It's a fact that many people stay alive because they lack a peaceful method to die. I've lived 36 years because of this.

But the world would be a better place for those who choose to stay, I think. Knowing that you have an exit available can have wonderfully positive effects on quality of life. And it shouldn't even cost much to taxpayers. N is cheap to manufacture. A truly peaceful pill would cost less than $50.

You may be right. It's kinda hard to speculate about specific rates though I feel, just because there are so many factors. Plus I don't think that suicide should be as simple as buying an Arizona tea at Walgreens. I don't see at as simply anybody should be able to commit suicide on a whim.

Either way I do agree that the world would be a better place though, even if suicide was that simple, because as I stated before it would be a bit of a wake up call for the rest of the world. In that scenario, if society doesn't want people killing themselves, they have to convince them by using reason and incentives rather than force.

And I especially agree that the fact of knowing you can leave improves quality of life. That's my original point in a nutshell.

 

[TheFool]

Really it comes down to the fact that there is an abundance of anti-suicide dogma in the West, and I think a lot of it stems from Christian dogma about souls and the afterlife. Yet Jesus himself committed suicide by Jew, so that's weird.

 

[TheFool]

I'd only support free peaceful and accepted death methods if they were restricted by age, probably about 21. The adolescent mind does too much stuff on impulse, I believe it would be catastrophic. Of course under aged terminally ill kids would get the choice, but no I don't believe all kids should have the choice, it would have to be accepted by parents first before they could buy and use the methods until they're about 21.

Yes, I agree completely. I tend to think 25 just because that's when they say the brain is fully developed, but really the brain is always changing so it'd be hard to pin down an exact age, and there definitely should be exceptions. But I think at least 20 as a general rule.

 

[TAW122]

Yes, I agree completely. I tend to think 25 just because that's when they say the brain is fully developed, but really the brain is always changing so it'd be hard to pin down an exact age, and there definitely should be exceptions. But I think at least 20 as a general rule.

That sounds like a fairly reasonable baseline for a start. I think that if people can vote at 18, smoke cigarettes and use tobacco products, almost old enough to have a drink (at age 21 -- but before 1984 drinking age was lower), enlist in the military to risk one's life in active duty, etc., then I believe a person can make a rational decision in regards to ctb.

The right to death might even be more basic than the right to life, because nobody chooses to be alive, and the only thing that balances that out is that we can choose to reject life after the fact.

Exactly, and on point.

 

[worldexploder]

If they selled Nembutal in vending machines I'd be fucking gone!

I would also be gone if they passed a law that you could obtain Nembutal if you still want to die after 6 months of intense therapy. Now that may be a deterrent for some people.

 

[bigj75]

Knowing human nature i feel people would abuse the fuck out of this.

People will Rob,steal, etc as long as possible then off themselves before they get caught. People who genuinely want to ctb because of depression or illness will get caught between it all.

 

[TheFool]

Knowing human nature i feel people would abuse the fuck out of this.

People will Rob,steal, etc as long as possible then off themselves before they get caught. People who genuinely want to ctb because of depression or illness will get caught between it all.

Fair point, but I'm not advocating making suicide booths like in Futurama. I think there should be hoops to jump through before that becomes an option. Plus, suicide is easy enough in some places at least that I feel like if that were really an issue then we'd see people doing that sort of thing now, and yet the only example I can think of is school shooters or other forms of murder-suicide.

 

[bigj75]

Fair point, but I'm not advocating making suicide booths like in Futurama. I think there should be hoops to jump through before that becomes an option. Plus, suicide is easy enough in some places at least that I feel like if that were really an issue then we'd see people doing that sort of thing now, and yet the only example I can think of is school shooters or other forms of murder-suicide.

That makes sense.