I don’t understand why people want to ‘gatekeep’ suicide

[Givenuponlife]

I think life should be the first choice so already we disagree.
In saying that i am completely pro-choice and support everyone's right to there own destiny.
Age, economic factors, location all change with some effort and are the downfall of alot of people unfortunately.
Others are riddled with pain, health issues and mental health, there is a million problems that will never go away.

I find OP quite disturbing, though.
How many people have you assisted to kill themselves with 13,500 posts and this attitude?

I agree @Surgeon . I am also pro-choice here but, to add to my previous comment, suicide is NOT something to rush into or encourage in such a cavalier way without ANY thought as to why one is doing it. As I alluded to previously, I think it's often done implusively without much thought. I like individual autonomy, but one has to have a sound mind and be able to capable of long-term planning over this most final decision!

 

[👁️👃👁️]

First post here! Just typing my (probably muddled) thoughts here.

One reason is pragmatism. Assisted dying/assisted suicide/voluntary euthanasia campaigners who want to focus on legalising it for people for whom the public picture most when it comes to this topic e.g. the elderly cancer patient with less than 6 months to liveregardless and wish for an ease. It's much more of a hard sell to support assisted suicide for the non-terminally ill, let along for those who are physically healthy but wish for a peaceful death. Even extending it to the latter groups of people is controversial even within campaigns to legalise assisted suicide in countries like the UK.

There is also the issue of mental capability. Many, myself included, do not think that children should be allowed this for any reason due to insufficient emotional maturity and have less capacity to make autonomous situations. Also many within the public and medical professionals, mental illness is seen as something that, even if not, is broadly treatable e.g. depression, BPD, and that anyone who is in this category is seen as irrational and incompetent to make decisions.
To be fair, there is actually a plausible argument to prevent these suicides if someone cannot comprehend what they are doing e.g. cannot understand an action will result in their death, psychotic episodes, manic states which cause people to change their position like the wind. Again, in my view, such people are not capable of making decisions for themselves. In these cases, gatekeeping is done to protect those who people see either those who are vulnerable or open to being exploited, or think that with treatment e.g. Lithium for Bipolar disorder, the mental suffering can be alleviated to the extent that most have a stronger desire to live.
As for the general argument to gatekeep mentally ill people from suicide, I think is medical paternalism, which assumes that the mentally ill are always irrational (hell, many people think suicide itself is inherently irrational!). For example, the clinically depressed, while primed to see the world in a negative manner, aren't inherently irrational. While many do indeed see reality in a negative manner and it can impact their ability to think clearly (and thus stopped from going ahead), there are definitely depressed people for whom there is enough clarity to think through one's decisions and engage in long-term planning, even if their illness marrs their capabilities in other areas. I also think the lack of understanding around mental health also causes people to gatekeep as well, due to caution and worries about the instabilities of the mental illness sufferers.

Many think that suicide is broadly "A permanent solution for a temporary problem", even if the set of problems isn't temporary and think it irrational a priori, and something that people can work through, unless suffering from a terminal disease. In fairness, a large number (perhaps the vast majority) of people do choose suicide as a implusive way out of their problems and do so, with little planning and forethought going into completing the deed. For them, the phrase rings true and for them suicide is indeed not the answer.
For the minority who consistently plan for long periods of time, this doesn't quite fit, but the implusive irrational stereotype persists as a blanket assumption amongst the public, suicide prevention etc.

You're awesome!

 

[Givenuponlife]

You're awesome!

Thanks

 

[Euthanza]

but what about a small child? I have heard of successful suicides as young as six years old. I could not stand by and let that happen or support them in such a choice. It's no choice at all at such a young age.

Ok, let's get down to this without attacking/blaming any suicide forum member as the cause of the children suicide nor encouraging children to any suicide.

I read the case of 6yo, not one but two of them. Did these children access this forum? No, I know they didn't, probably they commited suicide because of school bullies or may be also it's anti-suicide culture that makes those children won't ask for help, it's illogical and unreasonable to expect they would come out knowing their suicide wish will be rejected instantly. Does suicide prevention prevent them? Absolutely not. So, how do you want to prevent such impulsive suicide? How can people expect some children to call 988 and report that they want to commit suicide while they know beforehand their own parents will never support the wish? I leave the answers for the NPC and semi-pro choice.

As for me I would never call 988 to prevent me from me, what an oxymoron of me to do that. First, I would sort out parasuicide from suicide, because I know suicide is unassailable, even if you're 6yo, especially in a suicide-hating life-loving-only society.

It's only parasuicide that's preventable, I repeat "Only parasuicide is preventable". Majority of people, educators, governments and life savers are all wrong all of these times, do they even recognize this "suicide is preventable" stigma is their exact problem that puts everyone in the loop except the real suicides? Are they humble enough to commit this mistake, honestly like a suicide did? I can say the societies are drowning in lies, dogmas and bad propagandas.

 

[obafgkm]

Why has this thread become focused on children? If children are the main concern, people can gatekeep children and make euthanasia available to adults.

If children's brains are not fully mature before 21, it's the responsibility of parents, guardians, family, friends and perhaps teachers, to look after and protect them. There are many dangers for children growing up: playing with fire, knives, sticking a fork into the wall socket, taking adults medicine, climbing out window of tall building, extreme sports... Suicide is just one of these things for children. Maybe they just play with it, or they don't know the risks and consequences. Does the nanny state want to put a hotline in every wall socket?

 

[want2dienow]

gatekeeping? who? you must mean euthanasia, I would assume, cause nobody gatekeeps suicide. Anybody can do it at any time.
The painful factor, well, that's up to them, Cry.
You'll only prolong the pain by resisting.

 

[obafgkm]

gatekeeping? who? you must mean euthanasia, I would assume, cause nobody gatekeeps suicide. Anybody can do it at any time.
The painful factor, well, that's up to them, Cry.
You'll only prolong the pain by resisting.

The anti suicide advocates are making suicide more difficult. Comfortable methods: sleeping pills, helium have become ineffective. Nitrogen, sn... are more difficult to get. People are left with more painful and violent methods. Even then, there are more high barriers, fences and window frames up high places. If suicidal people happens to fall under mental health law they can be locked up indefinitely against their will.

I don't know if these count as gatekeeping.

 

[Funeralprincess]

Neither I don't want to be around your children, we want to die peacefully, remember? That means I'm gonna leaving you and all your children altogether.

But guess what? Some children are suffering more than I do, and some of them are smart enough to escape forced living even without reading this forum, they resorted to some freely available traditional methods like jumping or hanging because the peaceful means are all prohibited by the adults, those poor children in a happy shiney society that forces living.


That's not my words, I will just sit and listen to the unfortunate story, and then tell the parents about the story of Danny Bond. Bond was born with a bowel disease that caused him excruciating pain. At thirteen years old, he started talking about killing himself. Indeed, he did try to kill himself three times. When his mother resuscitated him after his third suicide attempt, he told her that she had let him down by saving him. His condition worsened shortly after he turned twenty-one, and he told his parents that he wanted to die and that he wanted their help. But they knew that assisting him would be a crime. Ultimately, he starved himself to death and asked his parents to stay by his bedside to make sure that his doctors did not treat him. "All he wanted was the privilege to be given an injection that would kill him instantly in seconds, and I had to watch him die in days," his mother lamented.


The burden of proof is all in you, looks like it makes you happy to add more uneccesary suffering. May be you are just fulfilling your selfish ego by giving others a perfect reason to leave this life wholeheartedly.

Or may be the arguments are all factual and too honest to be refuted.
Don't worry about access to sour grapes, it's actually sour according to high profiles' suicides. All great thinkers from Buddha to Nietzsche to Harari, all agreed that life is suffering and it's real.

What bothers me is how some of these idiots on here are bringing their children into this lol. Nobody cares about their children, we are just trying to die haha. Some parents will drag their kids into everything and try to make some point. Also why is that user on this site if they enjoy life so much? lol and they have the audacity to call other people's pain comical. What's comical is them being a parent and neglecting time with their babies to be on here harassing people who are unhappy

gatekeeping? who? you must mean euthanasia, I would assume, cause nobody gatekeeps suicide. Anybody can do it at any time.
The painful factor, well, that's up to them, Cry.
You'll only prolong the pain by resisting.

Lots of people gatekeep it but aside form gatekeeping, there are legitimate advocates who want peaceful methods removed. Pro life anti suicide protestors are the reason medicinal companies have changed how they craft sleeping meds, the reason why helium is hard to find at its purest form (same with nitrogen) and so much more. There have always been people who want suicide methods restricted mainly the peaceful ones, but my issue is why not restrict everything then, because so many things in life could create a death, yet the advocates only go after certain methods and they tend to be the methods that get the most traction right now

 

[👁️👃👁️]

What bothers me is how some of these idiots on here are bringing their children into this lol. Nobody cares about their children, we are just trying to die haha. Some parents will drag their kids into everything and try to make some point. Also why is that user on this site if they enjoy life so much? lol and they have the audacity to call other people's pain comical. What's comical is them being a parent and neglecting time with their babies to be on here harassing people who are unhappy

Lots of people gatekeep it but aside form gatekeeping, there are legitimate advocates who want peaceful methods removed. Pro life anti suicide protestors are the reason medicinal companies have changed how they craft sleeping meds, the reason why helium is hard to find at its purest form (same with nitrogen) and so much more. There have always been people who want suicide methods restricted mainly the peaceful ones, but my issue is why not restrict everything then, because so many things in life could create a death, yet the advocates only go after certain methods and they tend to be the methods that get the most traction right now

First off, the only reason these "idiots" even brought up children to begin with, it's because OP said anybody of any age can die whenever they want, when clearly they're teenagers and children that are going through issues that are solvable most of the time and trying to commit suicide on impulse.

Also, who the fuck said this user was enjoying life & who the fuck are you to come on here being arrogant and calling people idiots to begin with?

What's comical is when people put words in other people's mouth that they never even said to begin with and then try to talk shit based on it.

Nobody has harassed anyone we're allowed to speak our mind and that's why this post is public and there is a commenting section.

I think you need to have seen enough of life to make the right decision. The frontal lobes - the seat of human reason - don't stop developing until around 25/30, right? Even setting that aside because the evidence is shaky, I just don't think a child dependent is mature enough to make a rational decision. Your guardians control too much of your life during this time.

Even though I have contemplated suicide since age 12, 19 was IMO the right age to go for it, 24 even better. I had seen enough of life by then to know that most of it just isn't for me.

Suicide is a permanent decision after all. Outside extreme circumstances where there is unrelenting pain and suffering, I think everyone should give life a good shake before catching that final bus trip or kicking that bucket.

When we picture someone who is "not old enough" in your question, most of us will picture a teenager, but what about a small child? I have heard of successful suicides as young as six years old. I could not stand by and let that happen or support them in such a choice. It's no choice at all at such a young age.

I just want to say thank you for having common sense unlike some people here. I've noticed that they're very narrow-minded people here that can't see past their own lenses.

 

[Surgeon]

Well, i'm being censored and having posts deleted.

Kudos OP, you win.
Keep up the creative writings, you're fantastic at it.

>makes a thread about me
>continuously misinterprets everything i've said and attacks me for being a "pro lifer"
>gets my posts deleted because he's sensitive just not when it comes to taking other peoples lives :(

 

[want2dienow]

I think the reason people see suicide as a last resort is our connections to people. Loss hurts. Death hurts. Missing people hurts.

Connection to who? is this an assumption that everyone has a 'connection'. I've been told, just by alexander or zach that i need to kill myself, not should, need. killing myself will do a huge favor. people hate my presence, but to him, 'a whole is a hole'. and there was a hole here, it's gone now.
Death is seen as a positivity, riding this world of a slug/parasite no one wants lingering around with the potential to continue to disrupt peace.
Nobody will miss me (a slug). I attest
weird the anniversary of fk is coming up yet im still alive, why?

Suicide is a permanent decision after all.

and there it is again. yeah, and living is permanent as well. or is not? are injuries that are problems not permanent too.
Simple, you have no control to tell the pain of another. all this is traced down to a single source: control. Others wanting control of another.

in fk
there's a term known as Puppeteer's (redacted) an epitome of the control others have and wish to have especially when it comes to suicide.
Let me control you, take away your ever volition, and i'll decide when to remove your crown, giving you a will back.

Lots of people gatekeep it but aside form gatekeeping, there are legitimate advocates who want peaceful methods removed. Pro life anti suicide protestors are the reason medicinal companies have changed how they craft sleeping meds, the reason why helium is hard to find at its purest form (same with nitrogen) and so much more. There have always been people who want suicide methods restricted mainly the peaceful ones, but my issue is why not restrict everything then, because so many things in life could create a death, yet the advocates only go after certain methods and they tend to be the methods that get the most traction right now

If suicidal people happens to fall under mental health law they can be locked up indefinitely against their will.

bs. but as i pointed above, same. but torture. literally wanting to and these are strangers too who just come and
i have no words
it took me a while to accept their words, alx and zach, they tell me to do it so i wont be subjected to this here quote. but its hard becuase of the lack of effective methods. zach wont let me go by firearm, so what is there left? i showed my room, i cant hang or partial hang in here

 

[Celerity]

Connection to who? is this an assumption that everyone has a 'connection'. I've been told, just by alexander or zach that i need to kill myself, not should, need. killing myself will do a huge favor. people hate my presence, but to him, 'a whole is a hole'. and there was a hole here, it's gone now.
Death is seen as a positivity, riding this world of a slug/parasite no one wants lingering around with the potential to continue to disrupt peace.
Nobody will miss me (a slug). I attest
weird the anniversary of fk is coming up yet im still alive, why?


and there it is again. yeah, and living is permanent as well. or is not? are injuries that are problems not permanent too.
Simple, you have no control to tell the pain of another. all this is traced down to a single source: control. Others wanting control of another.

in fk
there's a term known as Puppeteer's (redacted) an epitome of the control others have and wish to have especially when it comes to suicide.
Let me control you, take away your ever volition, and i'll decide when to remove your crown, giving you a will back.




bs. but as i pointed above, same. but torture. literally wanting to and these are strangers too who just come and
i have no words
it took me a while to accept their words, alx and zach, they tell me to do it so i wont be subjected to this here quote. but its hard becuase of the lack of effective methods. zach wont let me go by firearm, so what is there left? i showed my room, i cant hang or partial hang in here

Controlling children is acceptable because they can't reason like adults can. How can you not understand this? I'm glad such fringe views are not taken seriously by the mods.

 

[9BBN]

To me suicide doesn't need a reason or needs to be justified … Suicide could never be wrong

To me, suicide should be an informed choice. This implies that suicide can be wrong in certain circumstances. Specifically, it is wrong exactly when it's not a choice or when it's uninformed. Unless you disagree that suicide ought to be an informed choice, your belief that suicide can never be wrong boils down to, "suicide is always an informed choice," which I think is very reasonably disputable.

What you call "gatekeeping" is really just people who believe that suicides can be uninformed choices and who also think that using certain criteria to withhold suicide as an option will consequently do more good than harm. I wouldn't personally call this gatekeeping, simply because people in this category wouldn't think of themselves as doing that. They aren't motivated by the gatekeeping mentality, they are motivated by pro-choice principles. Pro-lifers, on the other hand, would clearly self-identify as gatekeepers of suicide.

The idea that suicide could be wrong under certain circumstances suggests that there is some purpose or value to being alive

This is incorrect. Someone can believe suicide is wrong under certain circumstances without also believing there must be some purpose or value to being alive. As a simple counterexample, anyone who thinks toddlers shouldn't be allowed to commit suicide does not have to believe that life has an objective purpose. Said person doesn't even have to believe that toddlers exclusively make uninformed decisions. I suspect that this is the root cause of your "never understanding" those who believe in age-limits.

The idea that suicide is wrong is based on delusional beliefs about the reality of this existence.

Assuming "delusional" strictly means "illogical" here, I'll use it that way too: I think some of your reasoning is delusional. Your post is an (innocent) misrepresentation of those who believe suicide can be wrong.

Finally, a few words about why some people, including myself, think your post is harmful, beyond it being a misrepresentation of others. If you claim that suicide is always an informed choice, then in the eyes of those who believe otherwise, you are erroneously affirming some people's uninformed choices, literally telling people their wish to die cannot be uninformed. Remember, this is in eyes of those who believe suicide can be an uninformed choice. I'm explaining this explicitly because I don't want you to misunderstand some of the backlash as 'not very pro-choice.'

I don't think anyone is qualified to say that you "assisted" any suicides for voicing your deluded opinion. I do, however, think it's honest to admit that some fraction of people here probably take your word for it, which is why I think you should be more cautious about representing others, especially when you know you don't understand them.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

Controlling children is acceptable because they can't reason like adults can. How can you not understand this? I'm glad such fringe views are not taken seriously by the mods.

I think it depends on the child and the adult. Sometimes adults aren't much better than kids at reasoning their way out of situations or problems, and there are some kids who can out-reason the adults. It depends entirely on the situation.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't just let everyone under the age of 18 commit suicide or have access to euthanasia any time they want, especially when their life experience is limited and they don't have all the facts, but not every case is the same. What if someone under the age of 18 is terminally ill and their odds of recovery are low and they're in pain?

If they decide they want out and have access to euthanasia or some other peaceful method, but their parents say no, should the decision of the parents come first by default? What if doing so simply prolongs the suffering of that child and they die anyway? I realize this is an extreme hypothetical scenario, but perhaps every situation should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I imagine it would be, if we lived in a society where voluntary euthanasia was legal and treated as a human right, but sadly we don't.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Hmmm... Please elaborate on how someone who believes that everyone has the right to inflect death upon themselves if they feel it is best for their own being is even in the same realm as someone who inflects forced death upon someone who does not want to be dead?

I guess since I believe that suicide is an individual's human right, I should have been sentenced to the chair years ago.

Classifying killers and people whom hold particular beliefs in the same category is basically what Hitler did...

• #22

Respectfully, you are no different to a serial killer to me.
Your defense is disgusting. I hope you're investigated.

Hmmm... Please elaborate on how someone who believes that everyone has the right to inflect death upon themselves if they feel it is best for their own being is even in the same realm as someone who inflects forced death upon someone who does not want to be dead?"
===================================================================
I copied and pasted this post because it shows an example of what is going on in this thread : user Surgeon accusing OP of being a serial killer for posting an opinion. Several posters on here are accusing OP of being a serial killer, assisting suicide etc. I don't see a difference between what they are saying and what fixthe26 say that we here cause suicides with this little obscure forum where most threads get less than a hundred views. 1 million commit suicide worldwide per year and 20 million attempt per year world wide without consulting this forum.

This website is the only place where people can say life is bad. Everywhere else or 99.99999999999% of the websites, TV ,news,media, irl, work, friends, family , movies etc all we see is "Life is good" ,"Death is bad", "suicide is bad". How is one little website or post going to counter that 99.99999%? I've been purposefully trying to defeat my own si for years and still no progress so me reading one post is going to change things ? It is my goal to commit suicide for me only . That's all i want. That's the fallacy that fixthe26 keep repeating that a website is going to change minds make people commit suicide. They have no idea how the human brain works. To commit suicide a human has to defeat Si. Defeating si takes years of the correct kind of purposeful practice every day imo. Reading a single post is not going to do it.

How many people are suffering in this world i for one . And are finding it very difficult to commit suicide because for one thing they made it a crime for anyone to assist you as in Dr. Kervorkian who they put in prison?

The most fundamental right is for a person to be able to move away from suffering in a guaranteed way. How are we going to make even a small progress toward that goal of being able to move away from suffering in a guaranteed way if we are not able to discuss anything and say life is bad. Yes i think life is bad and i think non-existence is good for me only . It's none of my business what others do if they want to live etc good for them if they want to live. It's only my opinion and what i wish for me only to not exist so that then i won't suffer , grow old , no diseases, no pain ever etc.

i don't feel safe posting my opinion for fear of getting attacked like this on a suicide forum . For example others accusing me that i'm assisting suicide etc for saying that "life is bad". @RainAndSadness @Symbiote if you could please lock this thread as there several posters on here attacking OP and anyone posting similar ideas all relating to saying "Life is bad".
I think the accussations that people on here are assisting suicide by posting philosophical posts is an attempt to censor people posting new ideas on this forum to scare people into not posting for fear of getting investigated for "assisting suicide".

 

[Givenuponlife]

I for one am not attacking OP, which would be pretty silly of me to do as a newbie, but merely putting forward explanation as to why unconditional assisted suicide is opposed by (and gatekept) society at large, whether rightly or wrongly. I think this conversation is getting needlessly aggressive and bad faith, and some should step back and listen to one another here. I understand many of us, myself included, are shattered, broken and flat out disappointed with what life has to offer, and wish to make that final exit, but we get nowhere by dunking on those who disagree, which only plays into the hands of the "pro-life" "anti-suicide" types who wish to make more peaceful methods of death illegal and would like nothing more to shut down sites like these, which provide a rare and frank discussion about suicide that isn't chock full of feel-good, cliched bullshit. Remember that no-one in this thread is fundamentally opposed to the pro-choice, but where that choice begins and ends. All that said, I also think saying that the OP,or those who agree, are serial killers, is very unhelpful and also doesn't help matters at all.

As I've said before, I'm pro-choice regarding suicide (including assisted suicide) and would like to see the laws in my country be extended to all who have (the admittedly hard to define quality ) sound mind. I also the control of one's own manner of death to be a right of vital important e.g. in Switzerland, rather than be vigourously gatekept by professionals and petty bureaucracy and am furious with the paternalist do-gooders who want these, or to interfere with choice because of what they feel, dismissing the people they try to help (again, rightly and wrongly). I also don't think things like mental illness are disaqualifiers, but do accept that in some cases, those who aren't able to make a coherent decisions should be dissuaded at the very least!

That said, for most people, life is worth living and we ought not to dismiss that. I get that most of us, myself included, disagree with this and are here to call it quits. While I think it patronising and ignorant to preach about the wonders of life to the chronically suicidal, I personally think, if one is able to live life in the way they themselves see fit, then sure, although they should have the right to assisted suicide if they so wish (I am pro-choice), given they are of sound mind. I wish I could live and enjoy life to the extent that I think prolonging it is worth doing, but I cannot, but envy those who can and would be loath to take away their hope because I have none. After all, life has many opportunities for many people, although those vary per person.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

I for one am not attacking OP, which would be pretty silly of me to do as a newbie, but merely putting forward explanation as to why unconditional assisted suicide is opposed by (and gatekept) society at large, whether rightly or wrongly. I think this conversation is getting needlessly aggressive and bad faith, and some should step back and listen to one another here. I understand many of us, myself included, are shattered, broken and flat out disappointed with what life has to offer, and wish to make that final exit, but we get nowhere by dunking on those who disagree, which only plays into the hands of the "pro-life" "anti-suicide" types who wish to make more peaceful methods of death illegal and would like nothing more to shut down sites like these, which provide a rare and frank discussion about suicide that isn't chock full of feel-good, cliched bullshit.

If the pro-lifers were going for the divide and conquer strategy, then it seems to be working unfortunately. It's easy to forget that most of us here are on the same side when it comes to this stuff, because like you said, it's really hard to define what it means to be "of sound mind", and it's just as difficult to define what is or isn't a good reason to commit suicide.

I get why gatekeeping happens - most of us (myself included) don't want to see someone end their life prematurely if it means missing out on the opportunity to fix their problems and recover. It just gets frustrating when conversations like this turn into a game of "my reasons are better than yours" and it's hard to have an actual conversation about it.

Also, welcome to SS, newbie. We're happy to have you aboard for as long as you can stand to stick around.

 

[Jrmull1993]

most of us (myself included) don't want to see someone end their life prematurely if it means missing out on the opportunity to fix their problems and recover.

I agree that fixing the root cause and not ending life early is a best case scenario, but I don't understand society's desire to forcibly intervene and interrupt. A successful suicide has zero consequences for the decedent. The only ones who may be mourning are the ones who are still living.

 

[want2dienow]

Controlling children is acceptable because they can't reason like adults can. How can you not understand this? I'm glad such fringe views are not taken seriously by the mods.

Who's talking about children here, certainly not me.

 

[IanUK]

I never understand those who feel a need to gatekeep suicide, suggesting that it's only acceptable for those of a certain age and/or those who fit a certain criteria of suffering. To me suicide doesn't need a reason or needs to be justified. None of us asked for this life in the first place anyway so why should we be expected to exist against our wishes. The idea that suicide could be wrong under certain circumstances suggests that there is some purpose or value to being alive which there isn't. Life is just a pointless, unnecessary experience which is basically just endless problems and suffering. There really is no overall benefit to being alive. Humans suffer and struggle all for no purpose just to die eventually and be forgotten.

Suicide could never be wrong as there is nothing bad about being dead, dying takes away all problems and prevents future suffering. The idea that suicide is wrong is based on delusional beliefs about the reality of this existence. As long as someone stays alive, things could get much worse and they could end up in the worst pain imaginable.

I also don't really understand the view that suicide must be a 'last resort' and that you must try everything else first. Nobody has to. For someone to want to ctb they don't even have to suffer and even if there is a potential solution to someones problems they are not obligated to wait and see if their misery would be reduced. Some people simply have no interest in living. Having hope often just leads to more pain as in a life like this suffering is inescapable. Non existence will always be preferable to any life for me, no matter the life lived. I envy those who are gone and I wish that I left much sooner. I don't see dying as tragic, sad or negative. To permanently be free of all suffering is the best thing possible. Suicide is only sad for those left behind, not those that have died. After all, our only purpose as humans is to die.

Well put. People never understand me when I say I'm planning my own death. I'm not Ill I'm quite sensible, well educated, comfortably off and simply want the right to chose when I go. There are painless drugs they deliberately make impossible to access or ridiculously expensive. I think they are the sick ones - they are clearly so terrified that people might

I never understand those who feel a need to gatekeep suicide, suggesting that it's only acceptable for those of a certain age and/or those who fit a certain criteria of suffering. To me suicide doesn't need a reason or needs to be justified. None of us asked for this life in the first place anyway so why should we be expected to exist against our wishes. The idea that suicide could be wrong under certain circumstances suggests that there is some purpose or value to being alive which there isn't. Life is just a pointless, unnecessary experience which is basically just endless problems and suffering. There really is no overall benefit to being alive. Humans suffer and struggle all for no purpose just to die eventually and be forgotten.

Suicide could never be wrong as there is nothing bad about being dead, dying takes away all problems and prevents future suffering. The idea that suicide is wrong is based on delusional beliefs about the reality of this existence. As long as someone stays alive, things could get much worse and they could end up in the worst pain imaginable.

I also don't really understand the view that suicide must be a 'last resort' and that you must try everything else first. Nobody has to. For someone to want to ctb they don't even have to suffer and even if there is a potential solution to someones problems they are not obligated to wait and see if their misery would be reduced. Some people simply have no interest in living. Having hope often just leads to more pain as in a life like this suffering is inescapable. Non existence will always be preferable to any life for me, no matter the life lived. I envy those who are gone and I wish that I left much sooner. I don't see dying as tragic, sad or negative. To permanently be free of all suffering is the best thing possible. Suicide is only sad for those left behind, not those that have died. After all, our only purpose as humans is to die.

i agree well put I think society is terrified that there are people that don't want to be part of their society and want the choice to leave it. The whole concept of being healthy, mentally all there and sensible yet could wish to chose when to check out is so alien to them. I've left society in the way I live my life. I don't have friends or acquaintances because I'm not interested in other people and their lives and have little interest in sharing my life. All I want is to safely and painlessly go when I'm ready. Surely that's a human right? Why does society talk about human rights but deny people like me the very basic choice?

I never understand those who feel a need to gatekeep suicide, suggesting that it's only acceptable for those of a certain age and/or those who fit a certain criteria of suffering. To me suicide doesn't need a reason or needs to be justified. None of us asked for this life in the first place anyway so why should we be expected to exist against our wishes. The idea that suicide could be wrong under certain circumstances suggests that there is some purpose or value to being alive which there isn't. Life is just a pointless, unnecessary experience which is basically just endless problems and suffering. There really is no overall benefit to being alive. Humans suffer and struggle all for no purpose just to die eventually and be forgotten.

Suicide could never be wrong as there is nothing bad about being dead, dying takes away all problems and prevents future suffering. The idea that suicide is wrong is based on delusional beliefs about the reality of this existence. As long as someone stays alive, things could get much worse and they could end up in the worst pain imaginable.

I also don't really understand the view that suicide must be a 'last resort' and that you must try everything else first. Nobody has to. For someone to want to ctb they don't even have to suffer and even if there is a potential solution to someones problems they are not obligated to wait and see if their misery would be reduced. Some people simply have no interest in living. Having hope often just leads to more pain as in a life like this suffering is inescapable. Non existence will always be preferable to any life for me, no matter the life lived. I envy those who are gone and I wish that I left much sooner. I don't see dying as tragic, sad or negative. To permanently be free of all suffering is the best thing possible. Suicide is only sad for those left behind, not those that have died. After all, our only purpose as humans is to die.

Well put. People never understand me when I say I'm planning my own death. I'm not Ill I'm quite sensible, well educated, comfortably off and simply want the right to chose when I go. There are painless drugs they deliberately make impossible to access or ridiculously expensive. I think they are the sick ones - they are clearly so terrified that people might

You're awesome!

it why should it be? I don't want to get old and be terminally Ill before I get that choice. Why can't a healthy, mentally capable person have the human right to say ok I've had enough, I'm done, I don't want to carry on any more? The world as it is now is not one I chose to live in. I've always believed I was born into the wrong era. I don't belong in this time and everything about is anathema to me. Why have I got to be forced to live in and partake in a world I have no interest in? Todays values are not mine. My life effectively ended in 2000 and the last 20 years have become more and more intolerable to the extent Ouse Covid as the excuse now to avoid everyone. I pretend I'm terrified of something I was never scared of!! You would think with all the focus on human rights people like me should have our rights respected.

 

[9BBN]

and there it is again. yeah, and living is permanent as well. or is not? are injuries that are problems not permanent too.

Everyone here agrees that "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" as an argument against every suicide is unreasonable. I also agree that it's often used disparagingly since it minimizes all suffering as "temporary", rhetorically making suicide sound worse. But I don't think anyone can dispute it as factually incorrect on its own. Same goes for "Suicide is a last resort." It's factually correct, but it doesn't negate the fact that it should still be a choice.

I agree that fixing the root cause and not ending life early is a best case scenario, but I don't understand society's desire to forcibly intervene and interrupt.

Sure, as long as you understand that there aren't only two camps here: "No suicide allowed" and "Unconditional suicide allowed."

A successful suicide has zero consequences for the decedent. The only ones who may be mourning are the ones who are still living.

Suicide doesn't have "zero" consequences, it literally kills the person. Of course that doesn't negate the fact that it should still be a choice.

I think a lot of people take issue with the wrong part of anti-suicide arguments, which frankly is not a good look.

 

[Jrmull1993]

Suicide doesn't have "zero" consequences, it literally kills the person. Of course that doesn't negate the fact that it should still be a choice.

Of course some successful suicides have impacts on the living, however those that succeed in ending their own life, have no consequences at all as a result of their actions.

Someone who is dead because of suicide has no desires, regrets, pain, wishes, etc...

Sure, as long as you understand that there aren't only two camps here: "No suicide allowed" and "Unconditional suicide allowed."

I'm in complete agreement.

 

[9BBN]

Of course some successful suicides have impacts on the living, however those that succeed in ending their own life, have no consequences at all as a result of their actions.

Someone who is dead because of suicide has no desires, regrets, pain, wishes, etc...

Well there's a difference between "consequences" and "suffering the consequences." Suicide objectively has consequences, even on the person who commits suicide, but that individual is not, technically, "suffering the consequences", sure.

I don't think it even makes sense to say, "suicide should be a choice because the person who commits suicide can't technically suffer the consequences of it." I think there are much better pro-choice arguments.

 

[Jrmull1993]

Well there's a difference between "consequences" and "suffering the consequences." Suicide objectively has consequences, even on the person who commits suicide, but that individual is not, technically, "suffering the consequences", sure.

I don't think it even makes sense to say, "suicide should be a choice because the person who commits suicide can't technically suffer the consequences of it." I think there are much better pro-choice arguments.

I do understand what your saying. I suppose my argument is more against nonconsensual forced "interventions" and inpatient imprisonment than it is in support of the right to choose.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[9BBN]

I suppose my argument is more against nonconsensual forced "interventions" and inpatient imprisonment than it is in support of the right to choose.

I don't really think it's a good argument for that either. What makes suicide interventions wrong isn't the fact that we can't suffer the consequences of our own suicide. It's the fact that in many cases, suicides are informed decisions that should be respected.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Euthanza]

Everyone here agrees that "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" as an argument against every suicide is unreasonable. I also agree that it's often used disparagingly since it minimizes all suffering as "temporary", rhetorically making suicide sound worse. But I don't think anyone can dispute it as factually incorrect on its own. Same goes for "Suicide is a last resort." It's factually correct, but it doesn't negate the fact that it should still be a choice.

I like to spread these words to counter

"(Today's) suicide prevention is temporary solution to permanent problems"

And loving the idea of "suicide in the last resort"

To me, suicide should be an informed choice. This implies that suicide can be wrong in certain circumstances. Specifically, it is wrong exactly when it's not a choice or when it's uninformed. Unless you disagree that suicide ought to be an informed choice, your belief that suicide can never be wrong boils down to, "suicide is always an informed choice," which I think is very reasonably disputable.

What you call "gatekeeping" is really just people who believe that suicides can be uninformed choices and who also think that using certain criteria to withhold suicide as an option will consequently do more good than harm. I wouldn't personally call this gatekeeping, simply because people in this category wouldn't think of themselves as doing that. They aren't motivated by the gatekeeping mentality, they are motivated by pro-choice principles. Pro-lifers, on the other hand, would clearly self-identify as gatekeepers of suicide.

This is incorrect. Someone can believe suicide is wrong under certain circumstances without also believing there must be some purpose or value to being alive. As a simple counterexample, anyone who thinks toddlers shouldn't be allowed to commit suicide does not have to believe that life has an objective purpose. Said person doesn't even have to believe that toddlers exclusively make uninformed decisions. I suspect that this is the root cause of your "never understanding" those who believe in age-limits.

Finally, a few words about why some people, including myself, think your post is harmful, beyond it being a misrepresentation of others. If you claim that suicide is always an informed choice, then in the eyes of those who believe otherwise, you are erroneously affirming some people's uninformed choices, literally telling people their wish to die cannot be uninformed. Remember, this is in eyes of those who believe suicide can be an uninformed choice. I'm explaining this explicitly because I don't want you to misunderstand some of the backlash as 'not very pro-choice.'

I somewhat agree that the best method of suicide should always be an informed suicide, but not everyone wants or is capable to reach to that extent of perfection, many people just do it nevertheless what information/reasons they want/need to keep for themselves.

The ones who gatekeep the information about suicide methods are those majority of people, the pro-lifer NPC, they brainwash the population with their stigmas against suicide as if all suicide are bad suicide.

I think children also have the right to know that there's rational suicide and they can exercise their right after certain age or under special circumstances.

I think it depends on the child and the adult. Sometimes adults aren't much better than kids at reasoning their way out of situations or problems, and there are some kids who can out-reason the adults. It depends entirely on the situation.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't just let everyone under the age of 18 commit suicide or have access to euthanasia any time they want, especially when their life experience is limited and they don't have all the facts, but not every case is the same. What if someone under the age of 18 is terminally ill and their odds of recovery are low and they're in pain?

If they decide they want out and have access to euthanasia or some other peaceful method, but their parents say no, should the decision of the parents come first by default? What if doing so simply prolongs the suffering of that child and they die anyway? I realize this is an extreme hypothetical scenario, but perhaps every situation should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I imagine it would be, if we lived in a society where voluntary euthanasia was legal and treated as a human right, but sadly we don't.

Agree. The responsibility for a child is returned to the parent/s or the family who raises them until they're on their own. Bear in mind this is assuming I know the parent/s or family, if I don't know then I don't know; I can't prevent suicide in today's system of law, it requires too much lies and burdens that I can't help for myself.

 

[Celerity]

Who's talking about children here, certainly not me.

See OP's post for one

 

[want2dienow]

See OP's post for one

I'm not.

Everyone here agrees that "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" as an argument against every suicide is unreasonable.

Everyone here agrees?

 

[9BBN]

Everyone here agrees that "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem" as an argument against every suicide is unreasonable.

Everyone here agrees?

Everyone here should agree, otherwise they believe this argument nullifies rational suicide. Who are you obliquely referencing?

 

[Celerity]

I'm not.

Everyone here agrees?

Yeah, I always comment on posts by completely ignoring what the OP says……Makes complete sense.