Venting I don’t understand the people who force the view that suicide must be the “last resort” onto everybody

[FuneralCry]

Because I don't see suicide as the "last resort" and if someone does then that's a personal belief that can only be applied to their own situation, I don't understand those who insist that suicide must be the last resort as not everyone sees value in something so meaningless and harmful as existence.
In my case I see suicide as self care and I see it as a logical solution no matter what, suicide is the way to prevent all future unnecessary suffering and find safety from suffering in an existence where there is unlimited potential to suffer, ceasing to exist would solve everything for me and I'd always prefer to not exist.

And we are all going to die anyway so I'd see it as better to die peacefully on my own terms than to suffer for decades just to be tormented by very old age and die anyway. To me, permanently ceasing to exist is all that's desirable, I don't see what is supposedly so beneficial about this cruel and futile existence to justify suicide always being the "last resort", in fact I find it such a horrific tragedy how life even exists at all.

All that existence does is just create harm, pain, torment and problems that there was never a need for in the first place. In fact I see existence itself as the true problem which can only be solved by ceasing to exist, I don't see value in prolonging suffering as much as possible but rather beauty in the eternal release from it.

 

[Chinaski]

Suicide is final. It is the last resort by definition.

 

[DreamEnd]

suicide cant be self care. There will be no self to care about.

 

[4.I.2.Must.Die]

Suicide is final. It is the last resort by definition.

You gotta admit hes gotcha there @FuneralCry .
Besides, the same arguement can be made that you're ignoring other peoples right to believe that it is the final solution (which is probably a majority view). You can vent about whatever you like on here (short of indirectly attacking sasu or the moderators) but you need to better accept that what you're saying is an opinion, not a fact!

 

[dinosavr]

You gotta admit hes gotcha there @FuneralCry .
Besides, the same arguement can be made that you're ignoring other peoples right to believe that it is the final solution (which is probably a majority view). You can vent about whatever you like on here (short of indirectly attacking sasu or the moderators) but you need to better accept that what you're saying is an opinion, not a fact!

Exactly! Good for you that suicide is what you really want and that you wouldn't have to go through all this therapy, antidepressants and psych wards and all that crap before your death, if it wasn't for the lack of reliable and peaceful methods, BUT still, the majority of people have to take this road. It's due to how we were raised. And it's not easy to let go of something you had been treating as the only truth for your entire life.

 

[mortuarymary]

Because it is the last resort!

 

[Exiled]

I understand what you're saying. I think people push the notion that things can get better and if you don't try everything humanly possible first, you might miss out on what could've been. If I understand correctly, you're stating that people don't necessarily need to be at rock bottom for their desire for CTB to be valid. That's actually a pretty good take.

However, I think that just as you have different views on what should or shouldn't be okay, the rest of the world operates upon its own opinions as well. When coming onto a controversial forum like this, especially on a topic this heavy, you've got to be open to all types of responses you're going to get. I personally would feel like suicide is my last resort because I want to give things the fighting chance they deserve. You might not want to do that.

If we are truly pro-choice, then we must be okay with other peoples choices not being the same as ours.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Suicide is final. It is the last resort by definition.

Just because a successful suicide attempt is the last thing one would do doesn't necessarily mean that it's a last resort. For suicide to be a last resort, it would mean that you would rather pick suicide instead of anything else (i.e. living) and, for many people, suicide is a last resort because they tried their best to live but failed and hence see suicide as the only option. For somebody like FC who wished for death as soon as she learnt more about it however, suicide can't be considered as a last resort in her case as she never chose the alternatives (i.e. to live) to begin with. It's the choices here that are used in the OP to determine if something is a last resort or not, not the action itself

suicide cant be self care. There will be no self to care about.

This is true but you're considering this case in a vacuum instead of looking at the alternative scenario where FC continues to live. Since everyday brings her misery, the longer she lives, the more she will have to suffer and, if she were to kill herself now, she would ultimately save herself from decades of suffering were she to live on and die by natural causes. In that sense, suicide is self care as years of suffering can be prevented and she knows this. I mean, this isn't really an opinion but rather a mere fact. I just wish that she can rest peacefully one day and that I do too

 

[DreamEnd]

Just because a successful suicide attempt is the last thing one would do doesn't necessarily mean that it's a last resort. For suicide to be a last resort, it would mean that you would rather pick suicide instead of anything else (i.e. living) and, for many people, suicide is a last resort because they tried their best to live but failed and hence see suicide as the only option. For somebody like FC who wished for death as soon as she learnt more about it however, suicide can't be considered as a last resort in her case as she never chose the alternatives (i.e. to live) to begin with. It's the choices here that are used in the OP to determine if something is a last resort or not, not the action itself


This is true but you're considering this case in a vacuum instead of looking at the alternative scenario where FC continues to live. Since everyday brings her misery, the longer she lives, the more she will have to suffer and, if she were to kill herself now, she would ultimately save herself from decades of suffering were she to live on and die by natural causes. In that sense, suicide is self care as years of suffering can be prevented and she knows this. I mean, this isn't really an opinion but rather a mere fact. I just wish that she can rest peacefully one day and that I do too

Suicide is the last resort by definition. If someone decides to ctb, that means they looked at all the options of living and decided that it's better to go. They don't have to try to live out those options as the evaluation of those options is an act in itself. You can have a plethora of options but if you think that acting on any of them will not give you what you need to live then suicide will still be the last resort as nothing else will bring you satisfaction. It's the final act of desperation for a better outcome

 

[Captive_Mind515]

Suicide is final. It is the last resort by definition.

That merely means it's your last act. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a last resort… it could have always been your first preference above other choices.

Last resort definition: a final course of action, used only when all else has failed.

Some people were not of a mind to give other options a chance, because death was the logical choice for them when they weighed everything up. The prospect of toiling away in a pointless struggle was simply not for them.

I actually agree with FC, that society generally speaking, views suicide as a terrible option that only the most desperate people would ever choose.

This is despite the fact that death is inevitable for everyone, no matter how much you love/value this life… and so ending your life slightly early on your own terms can be seen as a highly logical decision for many people.

Framing suicide as a terrible and illogical choice in everything except the most dire of circumstances, is simply a pro-life bias that is rarely questioned by most people in society. It's just assumed to be true, because it's a majority stance - without actually examining the logic that underpins it.

Suicide is the last resort by definition. If someone decides to ctb, that means they looked at all the options of living and decided that it's better to go. They don't have to try to live out those options as the evaluation of those options is an act in itself. You can have a plethora of options but if you think that acting on any of them will not give you what you need to live then suicide will still be the last resort as nothing else will bring you satisfaction. It's the final act of desperation for a better outcome

Considering a course of action is not in and of itself an action. It's just that, a consideration.

If I consider suicide, but don't act on it… then I have not taken any action.

Suicide is a final act by definition, but not necessarily always a last resort.

It really depends on the individual in question.

 

[DreamEnd]

That merely means it's your last act. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a last resort… it could have always been your first preference above other choices.

Last resort definition: a final course of action, used only when all else has failed.

Some people were not of a mind to give other options a chance, because death was the logical choice for them when they weighed everything up. The prospect of toiling away in a pointless struggle was simply not for them.

I actually agree with FC, that society generally speaking, views suicide as a terrible option that only the most desperate people would ever choose.

This is despite the fact that death is inevitable for everyone, no matter how much you love/value this life… and so ending your life slightly early on your own terms can be seen as a highly logical decision for many people.

Framing suicide as a terrible and illogical choice in everything except the most dire of circumstances, is simply a pro-life bias that is rarely questioned by most people in society. It's just assumed to be true, because it's a majority stance - without actually examining the logic that underpins it.


Considering a course of action is not in and of itself an action. It's just that, a consideration.

If I consider suicide, but don't act on it… then I have not taken any action.

Suicide is a final act by definition, but not necessarily always a last resort.

It really depends on the individual in question.

I mean I think the logic is simple. If we talked about suicide as a reasonable option in face of life's conflicts then there would be more people thinking its okay to end it whenever they feel like. I don't think it should be that way. I think that suicide should be an option, but only in cases where a person has decided that any other course of action will not lead to the desirable outcome.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

I mean I think the logic is simple. If we talked about suicide as a reasonable option in face of life's conflicts then there would be more people thinking its okay to end it whenever they feel like. I don't think it should be that way. I think that suicide should be an option, but only in cases where a person has decided that any other course of action will not lead to the desirable outcome.

If you think it should be an option, then there is no way around the choice to let people openly discuss it.

Prohibition simply doesn't work, and that includes shutting down people's ability to talk about an issue.

At the end of the day, it's not your choice or mine to judge who should be allowed to end their life. Trying to gatekeep the whole thing is morally wrong.

Some people think it should only be a last resort, fine that's THEIR opinion regarding THEIR life. It shouldn't have any bearing on other people's life or choices.

If people want to end THEIR life "whenever they feel like it"… that's THEIR choice. It's none of my business really, as I'm not walking in their shoes or experiencing their life!

 

[DreamEnd]

If you think it should be an option, then there is no way around the choice to let people openly discuss it.

Prohibition simply doesn't work, and that includes shutting down people's ability to talk about an issue.

At the end of the day, it's not your choice or mine to judge who should be allowed to end their life. Trying to gatekeep the whole thing is morally wrong.

Some people think it should only be a last resort, fine that's THEIR opinion regarding THEIR life. It shouldn't have any bearing on other people's life or choices.

If people want to end THEIR life "whenever they feel like it"… that's THEIR choice. It's none of my business really, as I'm not walking in their shoes or experiencing their life!

You can say the same thing about drug addiction or alcoholism. Its their choice, none of your business really as you arent walking in their shoes or their life. But they are actively making wrong choices and destroying their lives and the lives of their family members. And people who are compassionate around them will try to help them. There is a reason, if someone goes through a break up lets say and becomes suicidal, we as a society try to help them get through this instead of saying" well if you want you can always end it". This is cruel and actually the opposite of compassion. Its not really your business who commits suicide if they are unrelated to you. But it crushes families and affects their lives. This is why we have so much suicide prevention in our society. And I say this as someone with permanent and untreatable mental illness who is planning to leave a good and loving family. My opinion has always remained the same, suicide should be allowed, not encouraged, but only for the cases where all the options for a desirable outcome are exhausted and the quality of life is so low that it isnt worth living. This is by no means "gatekeeping" suicide. This is the reality of it which is uncomfortable for people to talk about.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

You can say the same thing about drug addiction or alcoholism. Its their choice, none of your business really as you arent walking in their shoes or their life. But they are actively making wrong choices and destroying their lives and the lives of their family members. And people who are compassionate around them will try to help them. There is a reason, if someone goes through a break up lets say and becomes suicidal, we as a society try to help them get through this instead of saying" well if you want you can always end it". This is cruel and actually the opposite of compassion. Its not really your business who commits suicide if they are unrelated to you. But it crushes families and affects their lives. This is why we have so much suicide prevention in our society. And I say this as someone with permanent and untreatable mental illness who is planning to leave a good and loving family. My opinion has always remained the same, suicide should be allowed, not encouraged, but only for the cases where all the options for a desirable outcome are exhausted and the quality of life is so low that it isnt worth living. This is by no means "gatekeeping" suicide. This is the reality of it which is uncomfortable for people to talk about.

I'm not against offering people help.

And yes, you are attempting to gatekeep who should be permitted to end their life. It's not your choice.

Just because something might be sad or upsetting, is not a good enough reason to gatekeep or prohibit who can do it.

You think it should be a last resort. That's YOUR opinion about life, nothing more nothing less. You don't have the right to impose that view of life/suicide onto others.

You should try to respect other people's views. And some people do not view suicide as merely a last resort… for some people it's their preferred option.

Allowing someone to have complete autonomy over their own life and body, is a compassionate choice.

Telling someone, I don't think you should be allowed to have the option of suicide, because they haven't satisfied YOUR criteria - that's not compassion. That's attempting to control other people, and force your will onto them.

The logic is very simple, if we truly own our lives… then we should be free to end our lives whenever we wish and for any reason we wish. If we don't have that choice, then we don't truly have freedom. We're prisoners to other people's view on life.

 

[DreamEnd]

I'm not against offering people help.

And yes, you are attempting to gatekeep who should be permitted to end their life. It's not your choice.

Just because something might be sad or upsetting, is not a good enough reason to gatekeep or prohibit who can do it.

You think it should be a last resort. That's YOUR opinion about life, nothing more nothing less. You don't have the right to impose that view of life/suicide onto others.

You should try to respect other people's views. And some people do not view suicide as merely a last resort… for some people it's their preferred option.

Allowing someone to have complete autonomy over their own life and body, is a compassionate choice.

Telling someone, I don't think you should be allowed to have the option of suicide, because they haven't satisfied YOUR criteria - that's not compassion. That's attempting to control other people, and force your will onto them.

The logic is very simple, if we truly own our lives… then we should be free to end our lives whenever we wish and for any reason we wish. If we don't have that choice, then we don't truly have freedom. We're prisoners to other people's view on life.

You just admitted that its my opinion. If its my opinion then how am i gatekeeping suicide? I am not prohibiting anyone from doing what they want to do. I just think they need to have reasons for it because it can affect other people around them. Not just upset them. Literally destroy the lives of multiple family members. I think most members here are against impulsive suicide. Its literally the last decision of your life. It should be treated like that too. That is again, my opinion of course, people can do what they want.

I think we dont fundamentally disagree. We are just talking about different things. People already have autonomy over their lives. They can end their lives at any point. Yes, suicide is generally treated negatively in sociey. But that is because of what I mentioned above. Suicide is tragic for people related to the person dying. It creates more suffering. Thats why its treated that way. But people can do how they like, and they do already.

I never said someone shouldnt be allowed to commit suicide. There is a big difference between saying" No man, you cant die because you havent tried everything you possibly can" versus" Hey man, have you tried this? It worked for me, it may work for you". One is forcing, the other is helping. I am talking about helping.

Your last sentence isnt really true. What if the person is in a manic episode or in the midst of the drug effect and they are trying to die? Should we not stop them then? After all, its their decision to die. See how that logic doesnt really work. Same is for anything not drug related. How do we know if the person is in the right state of mind when they say to want to commit suicide? Should we just assume automatically that they are because they say so? We should just leave alone that person standing on the bridge because we should assume that he is right about his decision? That doesn't sound like helping to me. That sounds like ruthlessness and cruelty.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

You just admitted that its my opinion. If its my opinion then how am i gatekeeping suicide? I am not prohibiting anyone from doing what they want to do. I just think they need to have reasons for it because it can affect other people around them. Not just upset them. Literally destroy the lives of multiple family members. I think most members here are against impulsive suicide. Its literally the last decision of your life. It should be treated like that too. That is again, my opinion of course, people can do what they want.

I think we dont fundamentally disagree. We are just talking about different things. People already have autonomy over their lives. They can end their lives at any point. Yes, suicide is generally treated negatively in sociey. But that is because of what I mentioned above. Suicide is tragic for people related to the person dying. It creates more suffering. Thats why its treated that way. But people can do how they like, and they do already.

I never said someone shouldnt be allowed to commit suicide. There is a big difference between saying" No man, you cant die because you havent tried everything you possibly can" versus" Hey man, have you tried this? It worked for me, it may work for you". One is forcing, the other is helping. I am talking about helping.

Your last sentence isnt really true. What if the person is in a manic episode or in the midst of the drug effect and they are trying to die? Should we not stop them then? After all, its their decision to die. See how that logic doesnt really work. Same is for anything not drug related. How do we know if the person is in the right state of mind when they say to want to commit suicide? Should we just assume automatically that they are because they say so? We should just leave alone that person standing on the bridge because we should assume that he is right about his decision? That doesn't sound like helping to me. That sounds like ruthlessness and cruelty.

If enough people have your opinion in society, they tend to then oppose things like assisted suicide legislation etc… which then effectively gatekeeps the whole process and prevents people from having the freedom to peacefully end their life.

And they very often frame this as being about "compassion" and "caring"…. When in reality they are just imposing their opinion or view on the whole of society.

If it was just merely an opinion, with no consequences to anyone else's life that would be fine… but we all know that's not how life works. Majority opinions very often dictate the viable options and choices that people have available to them.

If it was truly just your opinion, then why apply it to anyone else's life except your own? It's your standard with regards to suicide, so why should it apply to anyone else's life or circumstances?

You're applying your standard onto other people's lives… that's not just your opinion. That's an attempt to control others. Yes granted, it's a soft attempt, but still an attempt nonetheless.

You're clearly not pro-choice. At best, you could be described as "selectively pro-choice".

I respect your view on suicide being a last resort. But I disagree with you. And I think many others would disagree with your stance on here too.

 

[DreamEnd]

If enough people have your opinion in society, they tend to then oppose things like assisted suicide legislation etc… which then effectively gatekeeps the whole process and prevents people from having the freedom to peacefully end their life.

And they very often frame this as being about "compassion" and "caring"…. When in reality they are just imposing their opinion or view on the whole of society.

If it was just merely an opinion, with no consequences to anyone else's life that would be fine… but we all know that's not how life works. Majority opinions very often dictate the viable options and choices that people have available to them.

If it was truly just your opinion, then why apply it to anyone else's life except your own? It's your standard with regards to suicide, so why should it apply to anyone else's life or circumstances?

You're applying your standard onto other people's lives… that's not just your opinion. That's an attempt to control others. Yes granted, it's a soft attempt, but still an attempt nonetheless.

You're clearly not pro-choice. At best, you could be described as "selectively pro-choice".

I respect your view on suicide being a last resort. But I disagree with you. And I think many others would disagree with your stance on here too.

So let me get this one thing straight. There will never ever be a society that upholds the values you set forward and for one simple reason. When it comes to suicide there is a fundamental distrust toward the person committing the act. Like I said before to which you haven't responded yet. A person committing suicide may not be in the right state of mind doing it, it may be impulsive, emotional response to something, result of intoxication or drug influence. This is why we have baker acts, psych wards etc. To sober up the person, albeit psych wards are terrifying and nobody should ever be there, there is one thing they can do. They can help sober up the person from the mindset they had when they told themselves it was their time to go. They give time to people to rethink their sometimes irrational decision. And many people do rethink it. And are thankful to those who saved them.

If pro choice means allowing anyone, under any circumstances and under any state of mind to commit suicide then I wont be that label, but it doesnt mean that. You are accusing me of having standards. Well, guess what, EVERYONE has standards. Unless they are a psychopath because you know what, if a child, a 6 year old child comes to you and says, "hey i have decided to kill myself, please let me open the window". Will you let them? After all its their choice, their autonomy, their decision, they dont have to consider other options do they?. But after all, if you have any sense in you, you would probably think well, something isnt right here. Why is a 6 year old wanting to kill themselves. THATS CALLED HAVING STANDARDS
Thats why A truly rational and moral society is the one that HELPS the person who is suicidal get better and only after the person has shown a clear and longstanding goal of killing themselves, allow the person to go ahead and be free. And here is the thing, pro lifers think that no one should be allowed to commit suicide because life is precious etc. Pro choicers think they should have it as an option, but only after some options are exhausted. What options or what help is dependent on the pro choicers beliefs and STANDARDS.

 

[breezeboy]

I be needing popcorn for Fc threads be like Avengers Civil war in here.

 

[ctbcat]

... honestly, i get what you're saying a little, because of my own circumstances. this is no where near the worst i've ever been, i'd in theory still have a 'potential' whatever that means for future endeavors and yet i'm still going to kill myself in a few weeks. i could in theory just live, but this is something i feel i need to do - die like a soldier, methodical, prevent any further agony i might have to feel. i guess in a way it's a last resort but i dont know, haha. a g h english language damnnn youuu!!!!!!

 

[Captive_Mind515]

So let me get this one thing straight. There will never ever be a society that upholds the values you set forward and for one simple reason. When it comes to suicide there is a fundamental distrust toward the person committing the act. Like I said before to which you haven't responded yet. A person committing suicide may not be in the right state of mind doing it, it may be impulsive, emotional response to something, result of intoxication or drug influence. This is why we have baker acts, psych wards etc. To sober up the person, albeit psych wards are terrifying and nobody should ever be there, there is one thing they can do. They can help sober up the person from the mindset they had when they told themselves it was their time to go. They give time to people to rethink their sometimes irrational decision. And many people do rethink it. And are thankful to those who saved them.

If pro choice means allowing anyone, under any circumstances and under any state of mind to commit suicide then I wont be that label, but it doesnt mean that. You are accusing me of having standards. Well, guess what, EVERYONE has standards. Unless they are a psychopath because you know what, if a child, a 6 year old child comes to you and says, "hey i have decided to kill myself, please let me open the window". Will you let them? After all its their choice, their autonomy, their decision, they dont have to consider other options do they?. But after all, if you have any sense of you, you would probably think well, something isnt right here. Why is a 6 year old wanting to kill themselves. THATS CALLED HAVING STANDARDS
Thats why A truly rational and moral society is the one that HELPS the person who is suicidal get better and only after the person has shown a clear and rational goal of killing themselves, allow the person to go ahead and be free. And here is the thing, pro lifers think that no one should be allowed to commit suicide because life is precious etc. Pro choicers think they should have it as an option, but only after he options are exhausted, according to their personal definition of what the options should be

No, I'm not accusing you of having standards.

I'm saying you are trying impose your standards with what you consider to be acceptable grounds for suicide, onto other people's lives. That's not pro-choice.

Why not just live your own life by that standard, and allow others to live by their standards?

I respect your choice to only consider suicide as a last resort. That's your choice and your right.

But do you respect people who would consider suicide as a viable choice in circumstances that would not be considered "last resort" territory.

Because that's really what being pro-choice is all about. Respecting people's free will.

This doesn't stop you from offering advice or help, but you shouldn't attempt to get in the way of people's right to choose their own destiny.

Also, you were trying to frame things earlier as a choice between being offered help and being encouraged to die. This seems quite disingenuous on your part.

I don't know if that was deliberate or not?

Being pro-choice isn't about being opposed to someone getting help or encouraging someone to kill themselves.

 

[DreamEnd]

No, I'm not accusing you of having standards.

I'm saying you are trying impose your standards with what you consider to be acceptable grounds for suicide, onto other people's lives. That's not pro-choice.

Why not just live your own life by that standard, and allow others to live by their standards?

I respect your choice to only consider suicide as a last resort. That's your choice and your right.

But do you respect people who would consider suicide as a viable choice in circumstances that would not be considered "last resort" territory.

Because that's really what being pro-choice is all about. Respecting people's free will.

This doesn't stop you from offering advice or help, but you shouldn't attempt to get in the way of people's right to choose their own destiny.

Also, you were trying to frame things earlier as a choice between being offered help and being encouraged to die. This seems quite disingenuous on your part.

I don't know if that was deliberate or not?

Being pro-choice isn't about being opposed to someone getting help or encouraging someone to kill themselves.

But everyone literally imposes their own standards onto each other? If someone is killing themselves and you dont think they are in the right state of mind to do so and you try to stop them. You are imposing your own standard onto them. Why do you think you have the right to stop them? Because you dont think their decision is rational. And that is like that with literally everything I have mentioned. From 6 year old kids wanting to ctb, to manic episodes prompting suicide attempts, to drug effects making people want to die. When you decide to help them that means you think they shouldn't die. The reason you think they shouldn't die is that by YOUR STANDARD it isn't acceptable.
Having NO STANDARDS means letting everyone die whenever they want. This is plain cruelty.
Yes I have standards and my standards are what I mentioned before.
By helping them you are literally interfering with the peoples right to choose their own destiny. If you are actually helping them you arent encouraging them to die. You are actively preventing them from doing so aka interfering with their right because you think its wrong. And literally every normal person does that. And again, it means actively imposing your standards onto them. I dont understand whats so hard to comprehend here. Again, if someone has a manic episode and is actively trying to jump out of the window, by stopping them you are interfering with their freedom to choose their own destiny. By your own logic, should you not interfere and just let them do it?

And holy shit man, respect peoples free will? If somebody actively tries to kill you, will you respect their free will too? After all its their free will and they have the autonomy to do as they please? They choose their own destiny too and their destiny is to kill you. There are circumstances when you dont respect peoples free will and the circumstances are what comes from the standards every single person has. Everyone has standards

No, I'm not accusing you of having standards.

I'm saying you are trying impose your standards with what you consider to be acceptable grounds for suicide, onto other people's lives. That's not pro-choice.

Why not just live your own life by that standard, and allow others to live by their standards?

I respect your choice to only consider suicide as a last resort. That's your choice and your right.

But do you respect people who would consider suicide as a viable choice in circumstances that would not be considered "last resort" territory.

Because that's really what being pro-choice is all about. Respecting people's free will.

This doesn't stop you from offering advice or help, but you shouldn't attempt to get in the way of people's right to choose their own destiny.

Also, you were trying to frame things earlier as a choice between being offered help and being encouraged to die. This seems quite disingenuous on your part.

I don't know if that was deliberate or not?

Being pro-choice isn't about being opposed to someone getting help or encouraging someone to kill themselves.

and i just realized. You literally said earlier in the conversation that we should be able to end our lives whenever we wish. So everything I gave before as an example applies here. If you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, in a manic episode etc, very young and impulsive, you should be able to end your life if you want to and nobody should be able to stop you. Holy shit I cant believe what I am reading.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

But everyone literally imposes their own standards onto each other? If someone is killing themselves and you dont think they are in the right state of mind to do so and you try to stop them. You are imposing your own standard onto them. Why do you think you have the right to stop them? Because you dont think their decision is rational. And that is like that with literally everything I have mentioned. From 6 year old kids wanting to ctb, to manic episodes prompting suicide attempts, to drug effects making people want to die. When you decide to help them that means you think they shouldn't die. The reason you think they shouldn't die is that by YOUR STANDARD it isn't acceptable.
Having NO STANDARDS means letting everyone die whenever they want. This is plain cruelty.
Yes I have standards and my standards are what I mentioned before.
By helping them you are literally interfering with the peoples right to choose their own destiny. If you are actually helping them you arent encouraging them to die. You are actively preventing them from doing so aka interfering with their right because you think its wrong. And literally every normal person does that. And again, it means actively imposing your standards onto them. I dont understand whats so hard to comprehend here. Again, if someone has a manic episode and is actively trying to jump out of the window, by stopping them you are interfering with their freedom to choose their own destiny. By your own logic, should you not interfere and just let them do it?

No, I don't think imposing your own opinions or standards on someone else is the correct approach.

I think many people dislike this approach and find it highly frustrating behaviour.

Talk to people, try to comfort them and listen. Ultimately they have the free will to make their own choices.

I disagree with your stance and approach to things.

But we're probably just going around in circles now. I don't want to fall out with anyone on here, so perhaps it's best if we leave it there. I think we've both expressed our opinions on the topic quite robustly at this stage.

 

[DreamEnd]

No, I don't think imposing your own opinions or standards on someone else is the correct approach.

I think many people dislike this approach and find it highly frustrating behaviour.

Talk to people, try to comfort them and listen. Ultimately they have the free will to make their own choices.

I disagree with your stance and approach to things.

But we're probably just going around in circles now. I don't want to fall out with anyone on here, so perhaps it's best if we leave it there. I think we've both expressed our opinions on the topic quite robustly at this stage.

okay it was great talking to you, sorry it got heated

 

[Captive_Mind515]

okay it was great talking to you, sorry it got heated

Hey, It's all good.

Nice talking with you too.

 

[4.I.2.Must.Die]

Exactly! Good for you that suicide is what you really want and that you wouldn't have to go through all this therapy, antidepressants and psych wards and all that crap before your death, if it wasn't for the lack of reliable and peaceful methods, BUT still, the majority of people have to take this road. It's due to how we were raised. And it's not easy to let go of something you had been treating as the only truth for your entire life.

I definitely wouldn't say suicide is really what I want, it's a tragically necessary means to escape my problems and a last resort having been helped as best as I can by antidepressants. Therapy did little for me. Other than being incarcerated in a psych ward (which does few any flavours) I'd definitely want EVERYONE to have tried therapy and some antidepressants or other mental health drugs before they conclude that suicide is the best option. Most do but some don't and it kinda saddens me that this is the case as you should never give up easily, but only a pro-lifer would simply tell you to never give up, period.

 

[mortuarymary]

Of course it's a last resort for some and for others it isn't. Day by day I wake up, take my meds and hope for a better day.
If you've not sought any type of help before CTB then try. I'm not pro lifing you. I just want you to see what's out there. When you have resourced every avenue then CTB.

 

[dinosavr]

I definitely wouldn't say suicide is really what I want, it's a tragically necessary means to escape my problems and a last resort having been helped as best as I can by antidepressants. Therapy did little for me. Other than being incarcerated in a psych ward (which does few any flavours) I'd definitely want EVERYONE to have tried therapy and some antidepressants or other mental health drugs before they conclude that suicide is the best option. Most do but some don't and it kinda saddens me that this is the case as you should never give up easily, but only a pro-lifer would simply tell you to never give up, period.

I'm sorry then, you're right. From mine and OP's point of view, it's a choice, it's something we desire. It's actually a million times sadder when you want to live but you can't :(
I hope one day you'll find peace you deserve, one way or another!