I believe if you are having issues with SI things have just not gotten bad enough.

[tpboy]

This goes for me as well. I mentioned this in another thread about those poor folks that jumped to their death at the world trade center on 9/11. Technically they all committed suicide and overcame SI. I do not think any were suicidal prior to that day. At that moment the circumstance and impending death by fire was so eminent that they chose to go a little early by jumping.

They made that decision because suicide was a better option than continuing to live and face a worse death in the very near future. When the situation becomes bad enough then SI becomes much less of a hurdle.

 

[DeathWish3301]

Respectfully, hard disagree. I understand the 9/11 comparison but it's an extreme example. I think SI is just extremely difficult to overcome regardless of the severity of your situation. It's hardwired into every living being.

 

[Beyond_Repair]

I agree to some extent. I think people who are severely depressed or otherwise genuinely don't want to continue living, but aren't very impulsive or are careful otherwise, or tend to overthink are going to have a harder time pushing themselves to it.

I know overthinking is my main problem

 

[anhedonya]

I see how you got to this conclusion but would also disagree. Human beings, above all other animals in the entire history of the world, have evolved into a survival mindset so ingrained that the very idea of repeating a traumatic event (taking a shower after drowning, cooking after a house burns down) can be panic attack inducing. Our brains are hard wired to do whatever it takes to survive, and we have the brain size necessary to find many other ways to do so besides the ways other animals do. From the dawn of time, our species has been unique in the sense that we could hunt large animals into a tired state because we had no hair and could endure running for long periods of time due to our ability to sweat.

Simply put, being a human being is not comparable to just about any animal that has ever existed. Yes, a lion wants to survive. But does a lion think about its family and friends when it's bleeding to death? Do they crawl back home and get medical care to keep living? Not really. They sulk off into a corner to hide the shame of the wound and let death take them. We evolved into survival and came past a point where it's about more than that. It's about having a life worth living and seeing what the future may hold. I think it is an unfair example to compare such an extreme (9/11) to regular people in regular situations. It took me a decade of constant suffering and two years of back to back horrific events before I got to the point I am now with my own upcoming CTB attempt: past survival instinct, past self preservation, past fear of momentary pain. That's not an easy feat and cannot be expected from people- many of whom still DO have reasons to live. They just wish their lives were better.

 

[tpboy]

I can say for me my suffering is getting to the point that I'm able to override SI. Its taken a long time to get closer to this point. For the first time i believe if euthanasia were a option, i could go thru with it now. I even think if i had a good peaceful option such as N i could possibly force myself to do it. The worse my situation becomes the more I'm able to repress SI.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Respectfully, hard disagree. I understand the 9/11 comparison but it's an extreme example. I think SI is just extremely difficult to overcome regardless of the severity of your situation. It's hardwired into every living being.

I don't know if si is hardwired into every living being. How can you fear Death if you know you will die anyway? You're living temporarily, suffering daily, risking extreme torture and will die anyway ( that's reality). So why fear Death since it's an impending inevitability and after Death all problems are solved forever, no chance of pain , suffering torture, no chance of unbearable pain ever : that's Death non-existence forever . so why fear no pain no suffering no problems ?

The concept of Death is a complex abstract concept. One must realize that Death is inevitable , universal, permanent , final, irriversible. you must know what it means to be alive and Dead. what these definitions are . And i guess even adult humans have different definitions about what it is to be alive and Dead. To me after Death a human or other animal ceases to exist forever as the thinking and consciousness is only generated inside that 3 pound organ the brain.

imo other animals don't know they will die . so how can they fear Death? imo humans are the only animals that know that they and everyone will die. Although most adult humans seem to not act like that how temporary and insignificant they and their lives are. imo humans were taught these concepts what Death is through language. other animals don't have language so they can never know they and every living creature will die.

Even in human adults there seem to be a great denial of Death. most humans are not constantly aware they will die and sure don't act like it especially the prolifers. why do anything if you will die all your memories things etc will be gone. well that's another denial of Death imo afterlife and reincarnation. no Death is final , the eternal ceasing of existence forever. how can an animal or bug live forvever where's the power source or reason ? that a human is something other than an animal or a bug is imo another lie .

Same for human most human children. They only learn what Death is most around the age of 7-11 years old do they realize that Death is inevitable , universal, final, permanent irriversible.

imo this is taught through language as are most concepts and beliefs.

Understanding death: A child's perspective - Doctor Sam Parenting

Many assume that children who are young “won’t remember” or “won’t understand” death. However, in many cases, children are more perceptive than adults realize. Depending on a child’s level of cognitive development, death can be a challenging topic for parents to discuss with their children...

www.doctorsam.com

from that article :
According to Piaget, children between the ages of 2 and 7 years are in the preoperational stage of development. They think of death as a reversible phenomenon and feel that it must have a cause. Consider a child who loses a grandparent around the age of 5. This child may classically ask to buy their grandparent a gift for their birthday, as the child won't be able to understand the finality of death and the fact that a grandparent is truly gone. They may view the person who died as having gone to sleep and feel that they will wake up.

how can you fear Death if you know really know that you will die anyway? I don't see anyone mentioning that "we are all going to die anyway" . Every single one of the 8 billion humans alive today will be dead in 130 years , 99.9% in 100 years. but we never hear this .

 

[LaughingGoat]

I see how you got to this conclusion but would also disagree. Human beings, above all other animals in the entire history of the world, have evolved into a survival mindset so ingrained that the very idea of repeating a traumatic event (taking a shower after drowning, cooking after a house burns down) can be panic attack inducing. Our brains are hard wired to do whatever it takes to survive, and we have the brain size necessary to find many other ways to do so besides the ways other animals do. From the dawn of time, our species has been unique in the sense that we could hunt large animals into a tired state because we had no hair and could endure running for long periods of time due to our ability to sweat.

Simply put, being a human being is not comparable to just about any animal that has ever existed. Yes, a lion wants to survive. But does a lion think about its family and friends when it's bleeding to death? Do they crawl back home and get medical care to keep living? Not really. They sulk off into a corner to hide the shame of the wound and let death take them. We evolved into survival and came past a point where it's about more than that. It's about having a life worth living and seeing what the future may hold. I think it is an unfair example to compare such an extreme (9/11) to regular people in regular situations. It took me a decade of constant suffering and two years of back to back horrific events before I got to the point I am now with my own upcoming CTB attempt: past survival instinct, past self preservation, past fear of momentary pain. That's not an easy feat and cannot be expected from people- many of whom still DO have reasons to live. They just wish their lives were better.

I agree with the argument that 9/11 is not comparable to typical life but have a few points regarding survival instinct and animals.

1. Animals experience panic and even ptsd, happy I was able to find a cool study I read years back. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685979/

I don't think there is any evidence that our survival instinct is more ingrained in other animals, I would argue the opposite as there are no "fundamentalist" animals who will die for the values of a religion, country, etc. Like you said we've in some ways gone past the point of life just being about survival, at least for those of us who have our basic physical/safety needs met.

2. An animal in some instances may not struggle against something like bleeding out because there is nothing it can do. We have plenty of anthropological evidence of early humans doing the same thing, having gone off and died in a cave from wounds or illness. You, as a modern day human, have knowledge of medical capabilities to treat mortal wounds and may fight to the end but animals have no such understanding or capabilities.

I don't know if si is hardwired into every living being.

The concept of Death is a complex abstract concept. One must realize that Death is inevitable , universal, permanent , irriversible. you must know that it means to be alive and Dead. what these definitions are . And i guess even adult humans have different defintions about what it is to be alive and Dead. To me after Death a human or other animal ceases to exist forever as the thinking and consciousness is only generated inside that 3 pound organ the brain.

imo other animals don't know they will die . so how can they fear Death? imo humans are the only animals that know that they and everyone will die. Although most adult humans seem to not act like that how temporary and insignificant they and their lives are. imo humans were taught these concepts what Death is through language. other animals don't have language so they can never know they and every living creature will die.

Not that we have a complete understanding, but we know that there are parts of our DNA code directly related to survival instinct.

 

[UKscotty]

So true. We can only CTB once all hope is gone and therefore the SI no longer exists.

However the bit about the 9/11 jumpers is very insincere. Anyone would chose to jump and die in seconds than burn to death. They didn't have a choice.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I agree with the argument that 9/11 is not comparable to typical life but have a few points regarding survival instinct and animals.

1. Animals experience panic and even ptsd, happy I was able to find a cool study I read years back. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685979/

I don't think there is any evidence that our survival instinct is more ingrained in other animals, I would argue the opposite as there are no "fundamentalist" animals who will die for the values of a religion, country, etc. Like you said we've in some ways gone past the point of life just being about survival, at least for those of us who have our basic physical/safety needs met.

2. An animal in some instances may not struggle against something like bleeding out because there is nothing it can do. We have plenty of anthropological evidence of early humans doing the same thing, having gone off and died in a cave from wounds or illness. You, as a modern day human, have knowledge of medical capabilities to treat mortal wounds and may fight to the end but animals have no such understanding or capabilities.

Not that we have a complete understanding, but we know that there are parts of our DNA code directly related to survival instinct.

But do other animals know that they are alive and will die ? Do other animals understand what life is that they are a living being and will die . that death is universal , inevitable , final, irriversible ?

Yeah animals fear fire , heights, bigger animals but those software programs are hardwired by evolution and in the Brain but they fear those directly. They don't think i want to eat so i don't die . they just feel hungry and know what food is and a desire for food. i don't think they see a lion and think i want to live no they just feel the fear .

I think even adult humans will differ in the defintion of what life is what it means to be alive. What is your definition of life or to be alive? don't look it up on the internet just off the top of your head.

Most humans are just taught "death bad" "life good ". suicide bad. "and accept that.

Do human children know what Death is ? No. they think death is reversible. Only after age 7 for most do children realize they will die and that it's permanent universal. imo animals don't know what Death is.

from that article :
According to Piaget, children between the ages of 2 and 7 years are in the preoperational stage of development. They think of death as a reversible phenomenon and feel that it must have a cause. Consider a child who loses a grandparent around the age of 5. This child may classically ask to buy their grandparent a gift for their birthday, as the child won't be able to understand the finality of death and the fact that a grandparent is truly gone. They may view the person who died as having gone to sleep and feel that they will wake up.

Understanding death: A child's perspective - Doctor Sam Parenting

Many assume that children who are young “won’t remember” or “won’t understand” death. However, in many cases, children are more perceptive than adults realize. Depending on a child’s level of cognitive development, death can be a challenging topic for parents to discuss with their children...

www.doctorsam.com

 

[tpboy]

For me soon to be all alone, homeless, with extreme pain, bedbound, losing all motor functions and vision is starting to approach the fear a burning building.

 

[LaughingGoat]

But do other animals know that they are alive and will die ? Do other animals understand what life is that they are a living being and will die . that death is universal , inevitable , final, irriversible ?

Yeah animals fear fire , heights, bigger animals but those software programs are hardwired by evolution and in the Brain but they fear those directly. They don't think i want to eat so i don't die . they just feel hungry and know what food is and a desire for food. i don't think they see a lion and think i want to live no they just feel the fear .

I think even adult humans will differ in the defintion of what life is what it means to be alive. What is your definition of life or to be alive? don't look it up on the internet just off the top of your head.

Most humans are just taught "death bad" "life good ". suicide bad. "and accept that.

Do human children know what Death is ? No. they think death is reversible. Only after age 7 for most do children realize they will die and that it's permanent universal. imo animals don't know what Death is.

from that article :
According to Piaget, children between the ages of 2 and 7 years are in the preoperational stage of development. They think of death as a reversible phenomenon and feel that it must have a cause. Consider a child who loses a grandparent around the age of 5. This child may classically ask to buy their grandparent a gift for their birthday, as the child won't be able to understand the finality of death and the fact that a grandparent is truly gone. They may view the person who died as having gone to sleep and feel that they will wake up.

Understanding death: A child's perspective - Doctor Sam Parenting

Many assume that children who are young “won’t remember” or “won’t understand” death. However, in many cases, children are more perceptive than adults realize. Depending on a child’s level of cognitive development, death can be a challenging topic for parents to discuss with their children...

www.doctorsam.com

My case isn't that other animals and us have an equal understanding of death, it's just that the survival instinct isn't necessarily stronger in us. Piaget's stage theory is great and all, but it's not applicable to the discussion of animals having a survival instinct if you are looking at the preoperational stage. It's more relevant if you are looking at the sensorimotor stage of humans in comparison of animals. Everything you've referenced shows that human children are taught ideas about death. This is not the case with animals, there is only instinct and some level of pattern recognition, far more comparable to age 0-2 in humans where advanced cognition is not yet relevant.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't believe that at all. Things have gotten bad enough for me. Life is undesirable for me and always will be. I'm overwhelmed by SI because I'm weak, not because I want to live or that things aren't bad enough for me. I believe that most people would be suicidal if they had to live a life like mine. My suffering is valid and it's more than enough to make most people not want to live life

 

[UnbelievableJelly]

I think OP is right, unfortunately. That being said, people who jumped during 9/11 were in a state of extreme terror with adrenaline pumping like crazy. It is difficult to recreate the same phisiological condition as that if, let's say, you are weakened by depression or illness and have no extreme visual threat in front of you. So I guess OP is right but with a significant caveat.

 

[Edpal247]

The comparision to 9/11 isn't fair. They were going to burn alive. Jumping was a rational decision.