Discussion Humans aren't meant to live so long anyway

[Ta555]

I feel we have this strange idea in our modern society that it is absolutely normal and should be everyone's goal to live to the oldest age they possibly can. I've read about this before but to be honest, the human body was not made to live into the sixties and beyond. I think one of the reasons CTB seems so unnatural especially if you're under sixty is this belief that you SHOULD be living till a much older age, that this is natural. But actually it's not. I've been reading about this lately and like this interview with Rolf Zinkenagel (Nobel Prize winning physiologist). He said "I would argue that we are basically built to reach 25 years of age. All the rest is luxury." Here's an excerpt from the interview:

HIV, SARS, multiple Drug-resistant tuberculosis, Ebola – the list is endless. We never had them until a few years ago. Why do we continue to grapple with all of these diseases despite our scientific prowess?

This is simply because the life span of human beings has far exceeded what it was intended for. The main function of human beings in evolution is procreation, which is usually completed by the 25th year of age. With our scientific prowess, we have prolonged our age, thus inviting a host of new diseases. I would add autoimmune diseases to the ones that you have mentioned. However, from an evolutionary point of view, this is perfectly fine. Most of the diseases affect man after the age of 25, by which he has procreated in any case. So it doesn't really matter if you die after then; your contribution to evolution is complete! The irrational behavior of human beings has also significantly contributed to the above-mentioned predicaments.

So, in a way, nature is trying to shift the mean age group back by a couple of decades through these diseases?

Yes. Biology has always been and still remains the driving and limiting force for human survival. In vitro fertilization may postpone the age limit for procreation, but this is not for general application. Therefore, I argue that the biological function of humans is basically over with at 20–25 years, and that is what nature is used to as well. Through the various balancing forces, it will always try to maintain the mean age around this.

 

[FuneralCry]

Yes, the life expectancy is too long. In my opinion, there is nothing good about reaching an old age watching yourself decay physically and mentally. I see it as being cruel how society denies people a peaceful exit and they are expected to live until they die from natural causes. Many people die a slow, painful death from disease and it is horrifying to think about.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

I've read about this before but to be honest, the human body was not made to live into the sixties and beyond.

Oh absolutely. The concept of heart disease? That didn't exist until people started living long enough.

 

[chocolatebar]

It's confirmed. I'm too old and shouldn't be here anymore

 

[Crocodiledundee]

I've read basically the same thing in a book about primitive cultures once, but the author said around 30yrs, and said that people older than that were given more respect because it was much rarer than now.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I feel we have this strange idea in our modern society that it is absolutely normal and should be everyone's goal to live to the oldest age they possibly can. I've read about this before but to be honest, the human body was not made to live into the sixties and beyond. I think one of the reasons CTB seems so unnatural especially if you're under sixty is this belief that you SHOULD be living till a much older age, that this is natural. But actually it's not. I've been reading about this lately and like this interview with Rolf Zinkenagel (Nobel Prize winning physiologist). He said "I would argue that we are basically built to reach 25 years of age. All the rest is luxury." Here's an excerpt from the interview:

HIV, SARS, multiple Drug-resistant tuberculosis, Ebola – the list is endless. We never had them until a few years ago. Why do we continue to grapple with all of these diseases despite our scientific prowess?

This is simply because the life span of human beings has far exceeded what it was intended for. The main function of human beings in evolution is procreation, which is usually completed by the 25th year of age. With our scientific prowess, we have prolonged our age, thus inviting a host of new diseases. I would add autoimmune diseases to the ones that you have mentioned. However, from an evolutionary point of view, this is perfectly fine. Most of the diseases affect man after the age of 25, by which he has procreated in any case. So it doesn't really matter if you die after then; your contribution to evolution is complete! The irrational behavior of human beings has also significantly contributed to the above-mentioned predicaments.

So, in a way, nature is trying to shift the mean age group back by a couple of decades through these diseases?

Yes. Biology has always been and still remains the driving and limiting force for human survival. In vitro fertilization may postpone the age limit for procreation, but this is not for general application. Therefore, I argue that the biological function of humans is basically over with at 20–25 years, and that is what nature is used to as well. Through the various balancing forces, it will always try to maintain the mean age around this.

The human brain does actually start to decline and decay at age 25. This lends credence to your theory.

Inductive reasoning starts to decline at 25

Online MPH and Teaching Public Health | SPH

sphweb.bumc.bu.edu

 

[Ta555]

@pthnrdnojvsc It's not my theory haha! It's been around for a long time. I'm just reading about it. It makes sense though. Life expectancy until the late 19th century was around 50 or a bit less. Well, that's if you made it past childhood which half the people didn't.

 

[Insomniac]

which is why I despise elderly people. they are people with zero dignity, clinging up desperately to life, burdening their children. so pathetic and lam- shit, I guess I'm still not over my hate for them, I thought I was.

 

[xyzblahh]

Does the amount of research being made into artificially extending our lifespans stress anyone else out?

Like, I can't even imagining having to live until 80 or 90, let alone 100+ years.

Just let me die at 30, as I'm supposed to

 

[summers]

I have a problem with Zinkenagel - yes, you can procreate by the age of 25, hell, some girls are fertile around 10 years old. But, if everyone died at 25, who would raise the children? A 5 year old with no parents is going to die.

Also, there are plenty of people 25-45 who are better, stronger, smarter, faster than people 25 or younger. A healthy 25 year old dying is a waste of potential.

In another thread, I proposed that 40-45 years old would be an optimal age for people to die. I think with some modification to the education system, people could enter the workforce around 15 (people completing HS only) to 20 (people with a bachelors or masters), and have 25 solid, productive years. There would have to be a law where both parents are at most 25 years to have a kid (so they would at least finish HS).

One of the main benefits of this would be all of the resources that go into keeping elderly people alive and healthy could be redirected to keeping children or those who are productive. Imagine if all the research that goes into dementia would be redirected to helping those with mental health issues. I'm not saying everything would be perfect, but I bet at least some members would be better off.

 

[Alan James]

This is one of the reasons for euthanasia: a person grows old, reaches the age when life becomes painful and wants to end it. The mistake of many is that they believe that euthanasia and assisted suicide are needed only by a very small number of people in the world who are terminally ill. But the right to euthanasia can be necessary for every living person, only a masochist wants to slowly and painfully die from the effects of old age (and everyone will inevitably grow old). There should be an opportunity to painlessly legally end your life at any moment, control over your life, and not let everything go by itself.

 

[Rational man]

Life expectancy is a myth. Before the day is out, thousands of young people will be dead by accidents, murder, etc. To expect 80 Years is Just that but no one knows if they will be dead tomorrow!. The thought of being old terrifies me, depending on other's. Unable to control Pissing and shiting. Walking around like a zombie and gaga. Many people are desperate and cling on to life by any means. Futile medical treatment that prolongs life for a while but makes you sick. We all face one guarantee of life. That is WE ALL DO DIE.

 

[Ligottian]

Even the gods hate old age.
- ancient Greek saying

-

 

[Mr2005]

35-40 I would say. 25 isn't old enough to have a child and raise it until it's ready to do the same unless we're supposed to do that at 13

Does the amount of research being made into artificially extending our lifespans stress anyone else out?

Like, I can't even imagining having to live until 80 or 90, let alone 100+ years.

Just let me die at 30, as I'm supposed to

The only 007 would have been George Lazenby. The rest were 30+

which is why I despise elderly people. they are people with zero dignity, clinging up desperately to life, burdening their children. so pathetic and lam- shit, I guess I'm still not over my hate for them, I thought I was.

Kind of agree with you on this tbh even if it's a bit harsh

 

[Ligottian]

I watched both of my parents die slow, hard deaths in their 80's. I have no intention of getting even close to that point.

 

[NormaJeane]

I do not believe that humans are created to live more than 30 - 35 years, like the stone age man did because our bodies have not changed much since then. It is awful to grow old and look like a wandering corpse. Some people live until they end up in wheelchair, which is terrible, a life without dignity. People in the society only follow the laws when they prolong human life, but many people are stupid - they are so programmed to live that they will do anything to prevent death. Old people are trying to force their children to live so that they can continue their lives without dignity. I do not understand how anyone can want to live 120 years - humans live longer than the body can handle. Overpopulation is the cause of all evil that affects us so it is not appropriate for everyone to have children. Only the best of our pets may reproduce but all humans can have children. Every time someone has a child there will be a person who have to choose between suicide and lifelong suffering.

 

[gottago222]

my grandma had her last child at 42, great grandma had last child at 53. obviously no ivf involved as it didn't exist. i have some really robust genes and i gotta go now because i dont want to live that long as a mentally ill person. my body is strong but my brain is all the way fkd up

 

[Depressed Cat]

I've often heard the following in the American mainstream media, "This generation might be the first who may not outlive their parents". My first thought was that it might not be a bad thing after all!

Average life expectancy has probably reached the limit to which life can be "enjoyed" in the First World countries, and average life expectancy in Third World countries is approaching that limit quite fast.

 

[little helpers]

Oh absolutely. The concept of heart disease? That didn't exist until people started living long enough.

or cancer. heart diseases can be congenital. though it being one of the leading causes of death is a product of longer life expectancy.

"This generation might be the first who may not outlive their parents".

hail captalism! neoliberalism saves us all! (FYI, this is pure fucking sarcasm).

It is awful to grow old and look like a wandering corpse.

actually what you'd see in modern-time hunter gather societies is a lot of the elderly are fit AF. work has destroyed us. being strapped to the chair, death from inactivity; or being worn out through manual labor that goes without a break, death from having no rest at all.

 

[random_observer]

I have a problem with Zinkenagel - yes, you can procreate by the age of 25, hell, some girls are fertile around 10 years old. But, if everyone died at 25, who would raise the children? A 5 year old with no parents is going to die.

Also, there are plenty of people 25-45 who are better, stronger, smarter, faster than people 25 or younger. A healthy 25 year old dying is a waste of potential.

In another thread, I proposed that 40-45 years old would be an optimal age for people to die. I think with some modification to the education system, people could enter the workforce around 15 (people completing HS only) to 20 (people with a bachelors or masters), and have 25 solid, productive years. There would have to be a law where both parents are at most 25 years to have a kid (so they would at least finish HS).

One of the main benefits of this would be all of the resources that go into keeping elderly people alive and healthy could be redirected to keeping children or those who are productive. Imagine if all the research that goes into dementia would be redirected to helping those with mental health issues. I'm not saying everything would be perfect, but I bet at least some members would be better off.

Yes, this is a gaping hole in his logic. Historically I believe 16 or so was when people started pairing, and procreation happened soon after. So the average "completion" age would have been in the 30s-40s, depending on the number of kids, since by then they would also be adults.

However, while many did die in the 30s-40s, if they didn't, they still helped through their roles in extended families: grandmothers helping with young children, grandfathers still helping pass the trade down to their grandsons, and so on.

Having people delay the "child" stage until their mid-20s amongst precarious financial prospects and living on to be 70++ changes this whole equation in a way that I don't think we've thought about and addressed well enough.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

I've often heard the following in the American mainstream media, "This generation might be the first who may not outlive their parents". My first thought was that it might not be a bad thing after all!

Wait what? I haven't heard this at all. (Granted I don't watch or read anything from the mainstream media directly.) What generation are they referring to? The millenials or the zoomers?

actually what you'd see in modern-time hunter gather societies is a lot of the elderly are fit AF.

Yeah. By the time they got to the age of being a mummy who can't do much? They were REALLY fuckin' old.

 

[little helpers]

What generation are they referring to? The millenials or the zoomers?

not really anyone specific. just a cross section look at young people overall. the remark was made about physical health, totally ignoring how many years we get deducted due to poverty, isolation, social traumas etc.

Yeah. By the time they got to the age of being a mummy who can't do much? They were REALLY fuckin' old.

hey hey don't panic lol. I was only commenting on there being better ways to grow old than in a capitalist society.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

hey hey don't panic lol. I was only commenting on there being better ways to grow old than in a capitalist society.

I wasn't panicking! I agree with you! I'm saying like the elders of hunter gatherer societies lived to a ripe old age, the age where you're supposed to need help to continue living. They weren't completely spent at 50 or 60. There have been skeletons of homo erectus where the person didn't have teeth, but they still lived to an old age, because their family, their society, would find ways to mash up the food and help them to physically eat.

 

[summers]

They weren't completely spent at 50 or 60.

There you go, what a goal! Let's live to where you're only 80% an invalid. /sarcasm

 

[Sherri]

My nana is 89, going 90, she still drives her car, doesn't stop cleaning the house , has more energy than me. And looks so much younger. No one ever guesses her age and when she tells they are so surprised. I always say you are like the queen of England. Two powerful elderly ladies. Personally I don't wanna pass 50.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

There you go, what a goal! Let's live to where you're only 80% an invalid. /sarcasm

I mean, I don't know, the prospect wouldn't be that bad if I had a loving family with grandchildren and stuff. But again thats just a dream.

 

[Trattkantarellen198]

Well, this is actually not true =/ Even in the bible, it says people lived sometimes to 120 years of age, and jesus died on the cross in his 30's, and was in good shape.

 

[Alan James]

The only way out of humanity from this whole vicious circle of hell is the change of biological bodies to artificial ones, transhumanism. This is artificial evolution when the tyranny of biology is finally overcome. If you think about what is the root cause of most of the suffering of people in the world, then this cause is a shitty wretched human body. Often the cause of mental disorders is also in the defects of the body.

 

[summers]

I mean, I don't know, the prospect wouldn't be that bad if I had a loving family with grandchildren and stuff. But again thats just a dream.

The only way I would want to live to 50 or 60 is if I could hook up with a 20 year old, and it not be gross. Shit, that's not even the case at 40, so I'm out soon.

 

[Ta555]

Wow thanks for all the interesting and well thought out responses!
Of course it's not logical to die at 25 if you procreated at say, 17. I think Zinkernagel was talking from a purely biological standpoint, not a social one. But I think he's not far off. I think 40-45 is probably a good limit and what nature intended.
Society and the medical establishment have become obsessed with the quantity of life rather than the quality to the point they'd rather see a person in diapers hooked up to tubes coming out of every orifice and on a ventilator than just let them pass. It's horrific. I think often the media tends to romantacise old age like old people are these wise, content counsellors with so much life experience that we go to for wisdom etc when in reality for most elderly, obviously not all, it's just a world of various aches and pains and taking ten different medications a day just to function even if they don't have any severe illness. No wonder so many elderly commit suicide and then psychologists and their ilk wring their hands and wonder how we can improve the mental health of these people so they don't want to die. It's fucking ridiculous.