Discussion How's my logic?

[Forever Sleep]

To my mind, life involves some pretty much unavoidable elements. Or rather, avoiding them likely lands you in an even worse position.

For example, the common answer to someone complaining about being a wage slave to capitalism/ consumerism is to go and live off grid. That obviously wouldn't be an easier choice in many cases. There simply aren't always good alternatives in many cases- to my mind. We might be able to mitigate our unpleasant circumstances but, only we can assess whether we're happy to live with the slightly better circumstances.

My mind tends to reason that: life compulsorily contains this... But, I don't want to do that! So- isn't the answer clear? Surely it means that if I don't want to do the vital components that make up life, then, I don't want to live? Isn't that logical?

I think people who have ideation are often seen as illogical. Or at least, their perspective on life is scewed.

Are we really talking about perspective though? I guess things like depression can create an exagerated low mood and obliterate our energy. But surely, a lot of it is simple preference? Depression can probably make you start to tire of a life you once enjoyed but, what if you never massively enjoyed life? It can't be abnormal to hate certain things.

Of course, the answer is to change your life or job until you get to the point where you do like it. But, what if that never comes? Is it really illogical to say- I don't like life. I don't want to participate in it?

 

[derpyderpins]

Generally, your logic holds up imo, as it's something I've mulled over a lot.

An argument on the other side - which you partially hit on but I'll expand upon it - is that it is actually hyperlogical thinking when the information we are working with is limited due to the depression. We are depressed, and the present information we have is how that feels. Sure, we can somewhat remember the past, and what it may have been like to feel good, but when you're hurting your biology is going to focus itself on dealing with the hurt.

Think of it this way: you're running from a tiger. Sure you can remember a time when you felt safe before you were running from that tiger, but that can't make your body re-live the feeling of being safe, because it has to remain scared to motivate you to get to safety.

Apply to depression: sure you can remember that you didn't feel so bad at one point, but you can't make your body re-live it, so you can't give a fair comparison of the good you felt before to the psychic pain you feel now. The present feeling will always trump as the body enters its troubleshooting/diagnostic mode.

You start doing math, then - after all, we're trying to be logical - and you try to add up the good you've felt versus the bad to determine if the sum is positive or negative. But, as explained above, biology will force you to put higher value on the present negative.

One thing I have been trying to do is take significant mental notes when I get relief from depression. It's something you don't think to do, because you're finally relieved and there is no drive to correct anything.

Additionally, one might critique our ability to anticipate what the future holds and possbilities before us.

None of this is to say your logic isn't sound, just offering another perspective.

 

[Aergia]

Are we really talking about perspective though? I guess things like depression can create an exagerated low mood and obliterate our energy. But surely, a lot of it is simple preference?

I don't know if you're familiar with Bryan Caplan, but he's an economist who argues that all mental illnesses are merely socially disapproved preferences. He draws upon the work of Thomas Szasz, a psychiatrist who's best known for rejecting the notion of mental illness (and who I'm guessing has been discussed to some extent here, given his stances on psychiatry and the right to die). I can't say I agree with the idea but I'm linking this piece by the former because I think it's interesting.

Personally, I don't like the term mental illness. I think it's too loaded. I'd prefer discussing "disorders" instead of "illnesses" or using "anomalous" instead of "ill" when referring to a mind. To define sickness entails defining wellness, and I just don't think that's as simple as it seems. I think some members here are fine with acknowledging that they're mentally ill, but I've seen other members who clearly display symptoms of "mental illness" as it's generally perceived (anhedonia, SH, endogenous suicidal ideation, etc.) but spurn the label and who do indeed seem to view their desire to die as, well, a socially disapproved preference.

The question of whether it's logical to want to die because you can't accept necessary aspects of life... just doesn't have an answer, imo—it all depends on the principles you start from, because you simply have to start somewhere. A promortalist would say that suicide is always a good idea, because one their first principles is that the presence of pain is worse than the absence of pleasure. And a so-called normie would say suicide is wrong because one of their first principles is that life is intrinsically good. The rest of us fall somewhere in between, but either way, where you end up generally depends on what your foundations are.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Generally, your logic holds up imo, as it's something I've mulled over a lot.

An argument on the other side - which you partially hit on but I'll expand upon it - is that it is actually hyperlogical thinking when the information we are working with is limited due to the depression. We are depressed, and the present information we have is how that feels. Sure, we can somewhat remember the past, and what it may have been like to feel good, but when you're hurting your biology is going to focus itself on dealing with the hurt.

Think of it this way: you're running from a tiger. Sure you can remember a time when you felt safe before you were running from that tiger, but that can't make your body re-live the feeling of being safe, because it has to remain scared to motivate you to get to safety.

Apply to depression: sure you can remember that you didn't feel so bad at one point, but you can't make your body re-live it, so you can't give a fair comparison of the good you felt before to the psychic pain you feel now. The present feeling will always trump as the body enters its troubleshooting/diagnostic mode.

You start doing math, then - after all, we're trying to be logical - and you try to add up the good you've felt versus the bad to determine if the sum is positive or negative. But, as explained above, biology will force you to put higher value on the present negative.

One thing I have been trying to do is take significant mental notes when I get relief from depression. It's something you don't think to do, because you're finally relieved and there is no drive to correct anything.

Additionally, one might critique our ability to anticipate what the future holds and possbilities before us.

None of this is to say your logic isn't sound, just offering another perspective.

Your logic is absolutely sound and I appreciate your perspective.

I suppose from my own perspective, I'm not even sure I am depressed. Not deeply anyway.

My apetite is normal, my sleep pattern- normal, my sex drive (not that I have anyone to share it with!) normal. I don't feel a deep hatred of myself particularly. I'm annoyed when I screw things up but I don't feel a total failure to myself or my family. I can hold down a job. I can meet demanding deadlines when I need to. I still find certain things enjoyable.

It's more, that the things I hate, I REALLY hate. Like tidying and cleaning. That's what's causing my current tantrum! Overall though, life just contains an endless stream of chores and responsibilities that I simply don't want to do but can't effectively avoid.

It's not to the extreme of being completely constant. When I worked in retail on top, I was reaching for the anti-depressants! But it's enough for life overall to seem- really not worth the effort. Thinking about it, I'm not sure it's ever felt worth the effort. I think I was just a lot more compliant when I was young. I suppose I genuinely did get more out of pursuing my career too.

It's kind of odd actually. I was diagnosed with mild to moderate depression around 15 years ago- during my long stint in retail- unsurprisingly. At the time, the diagnosis actually comforted me as I thought- ok then. This is an illness so therefore, it can be cured. I'm not convinced it's so straight forward as that now. Plus, I think simply disliking a lot about the nature of life doesn't necessarily mean someone is depressed. More that maybe they just can't find enough ways to make life enjoyable for themselves (and survive.)