Help How to explain to someone why wishes to CTB should be respected?

[FieldsofLavender]

So... I had a discussion today with someone who reacted pretty much the exact opposite of what you'd want; very authoritarian and without understanding; literally saying "You should not be able to choose to give up." and "What you want doesn't matter, getting help is what you need." And I just couldn't seem to explain why it shouldn't be assumed that people suffering should be kept alive against their will, they responded to my attempts with thing like "Do you want to be reason someone is dead?" and insisted that things will get better, always. I... Don't know if I'll ever be able to get through to that person, but I do want to know... How do I convincingly explain to someone why someone with chronic, unending mental illness should be allowed to decide to end their lives? I can imagine an argument of "Their judgement and ability to make good decisions is inherently impaired by mental illness", and I don't really believe that, but I don't know how to respond to things like that...

 

[SilentSadness]

There is really no point trying to reason with them; they don't wish to empathise and are instead determined to keep their ignorant worldview that everything is good. Contrary to their beliefs, life is overwhelmingly negative and people being insensitive is one of the countless reasons. This is why it's much better not to tell anyone about suicidal ideation, they will always find a way to make things worse. You sadly can't trust anyone in this game of lies and deception and I really wish I could leave it all behind. I hope that you find better people to talk to anyway.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd ask them who they think your life- their life- anyone's life belongs to. Ultimately- they may happen to disagree with a lot of people's decisions. How do they feel about people drinking/smoking themselves to death? Should those people be forcibly stopped too? Why?

For whom should any of these suicidal people stay alive for? Themselves? They clearly don't enjoy life though- and have no motivation to try to. For their families and friends? That's a difficult one certainly. I think most of us struggle with that one. Still- ultimately- none of us chose to be born in the first place. We've been given a set of circumstances SO bad to us that ending it all seems like the least painful option. Surely that ought to be empathised with? Should these people stay alive for the wider community? I mean- fine if they're happy being a slave... I'm not.

Lastly, I'd probably use the murder charge comparison. Not many people are given lighter sentences based on an insanity plea. Most killers seem to be convicted as knowing what they did. So- why does a suicidal person not have that same agency? Do they HONESTLY think we're more crazy than a serial killer?

Of course- if they say our lives belong to God- you're kind of screwed. Still- you can just say that without proof- that's just a belief. And that we are all entitled to hold our own beliefs- it doesn't make them true.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Of course- if they say our lives belong to God- you're kind of screwed. Still- you can just say that without proof- that's just a belief. And that we are all entitled to hold our own beliefs- it doesn't make them true.

Then say you had a divine revelation from God and he said it was okay. That's all the authority Mohammed had, for example.

 

[theboy]

It is not possible to
They will not understand

 

[FuneralCry]

There is just no point to trying to make people like that understand, it will just lead to more suffering communicating with people like that. Pro lifers are just so blinded by their delusional worldview and they just don't wish to accept the fact that suicide is the more logical option, as I believe that the thought of death being preferable to existing here scares them. Unfortunately there are so many who are against the right to die so as a result they wish to force people to suffer which is something that disgusts me in a world as hellish as this.

 

[CentreMid]

Depends on who you talk to. If you know the person is not open to learning and has a narrow mindset, don't bother. It's unlikely they'll listen.

But if you are talking to someone who you know may be open to listening to alternative points of view, go for it.

For example, my partner and I had a big conversation about this. She still holds some slightly selfish stances regarding me specifically, but was open to admitting that and was open to listening and learning from my side of things about suicide in general. One of by biggest points was that I told her that I didn't have a choice in being born, so I should at least have the choice to leave.

While I know that having children and abortion aren't related to suicide, I used choice as the common factor between them and made that abundantly clear. I also asked her "why would somebody not want kids? Why would anybody get an abortion? Would you ask them why they would choose not to have kids or choose to have an abortion?" My partner said no because it wasn't her business (we are both very pro-choice in regards to abortion btw). I then asked her why it's different for suicide. Why respect one side and not the other?

To reiterate, it all depends on who you're talking to. I think some people are willing to at least listen, but you have to be careful. I'm sorry if none of this makes sense, I am tired so my coherence may be led than usual, but I'm happy to clear things up if anyone wants!

I should also make one thing clear, I don't want anyone using my comment to debate abortion, I don't think this is a good place for that, I just wanted to share the points that I used for myself in my own discussions with the people in my life as an example of explaining the choice to ctb

 

[FieldsofLavender]

There is just no point to trying to make people like that understand, it will just lead to more suffering communicating with people like that. Pro lifers are just so blinded by their delusional worldview and they just don't wish to accept the fact that suicide is the more logical option, as I believe that the thought of death being preferable to existing here scares them. Unfortunately there are so many who are against the right to die so as a result they wish to force people to suffer which is something that disgusts me in a world as hellish as this.

I know that that specific person probably won't ever understand, but I meant if I were to be talking to someone who is actually open to it. How do I show them that it's more logical, as you said? How do I explain that the wish for suicide isn't just irrational and caused by delusion?...

 

[TimeHasCome6]

Then say you had a divine revelation from God and he said it was okay. That's all the authority Mohammed had, for example.

My parents are Christian, and the ones of that religion would argue that the one who told you so was not God. That's it was the Enemy or Devil. Satan or Lucifer. They are too stuck on something's to realize the reality of the world. There is always a screwed pro-life thing from them.

I know that that specific person probably won't ever understand, but I meant if I were to be talking to someone who is actually open to it. How do I show them that it's more logical, as you said? How do I explain that the wish for suicide isn't just irrational and caused by delusion?...

There was a very good point made about abortion comparison. You should read back through it and use that. I think that might be one of the best arguments I've ever heard on this subject. And somebody compared us to serial killers. Those are both great ways to explain things. Overall, you need to tell them they need to hear you out first if they will.

 

[FieldsofLavender]

Depends on who you talk to. If you know the person is not open to learning and has a narrow mindset, don't bother. It's unlikely they'll listen.

But if you are talking to someone who you know may be open to listening to alternative points of view, go for it.

For example, my partner and I had a big conversation about this. She still holds some slightly selfish stances regarding me specifically, but was open to admitting that and was open to listening and learning from my side of things about suicide in general. One of by biggest points was that I told her that I didn't have a choice in being born, so I should at least have the choice to leave.

While I know that having children and abortion aren't related to suicide, I used choice as the common factor between them and made that abundantly clear. I also asked her "why would somebody not want kids? Why would anybody get an abortion? Would you ask them why they would choose not to have kids or choose to have an abortion?" My partner said no because it wasn't her business (we are both very pro-choice in regards to abortion btw). I then asked her why it's different for suicide. Why respect one side and not the other?

To reiterate, it all depends on who you're talking to. I think some people are willing to at least listen, but you have to be careful. I'm sorry if none of this makes sense, I am tired so my coherence may be led than usual, but I'm happy to clear things up if anyone wants!

I should also make one thing clear, I don't want anyone using my comment to debate abortion, I don't think this is a good place for that, I just wanted to share the points that I used for myself in my own discussions with the people in my life as an example of explaining the choice to ctb

Thank you! This makes sense, but I still feel like I wouldn't really know what to do if someone says something like that it should be fully taken into account because of mental illness causing delusion, or that people deserve to be given another chance to live or something like that... I'm a little bit of dummy, ehehe...

 

[FuneralCry]

I know that that specific person probably won't ever understand, but I meant if I were to be talking to someone who is actually open to it. How do I show them that it's more logical, as you said? How do I explain that the wish for suicide isn't just irrational and caused by delusion?...

I guess that one could talk about how we are all destined to die anyway, all life leads to death where whatever we went through will be long forgotten about, so from that point of view suicide can seem like a logical choice, as it's preventing unnecessary suffering that would had been experienced all for the sake of it. Life is completely meaningless and worthless and after all there is nothing that is so valuable about life to justify forcing people to stay here against their wishes. But I guess that anyway, it's our life and our choice and we have our right to exit, if someone wants to leave it shouldn't matter what others think about it.

 

[FieldsofLavender]

I guess that one could talk about how we are all destined to die anyway, all life leads to death where whatever we went through will be long forgotten about, so from that point of view suicide can seem like a logical choice, as it's preventing unnecessary suffering that would had been experienced all for the sake of it. Life is completely meaningless and worthless and after all there is nothing that is so valuable about life to justify forcing people to stay here against their wishes. But I guess that anyway, it's our life and our choice and we have our right to exit, if someone wants to leave it shouldn't matter what others think about it.

Yeah, that... I mean, it makes sense to me, but I get the feeling someone who's never been suicidal themselves won't agree that life is worthless... Though, part of me doesn't really want to ruin that for them, if they can enjoy life I don't want to push them into despair...

 

[ryo the frog]

you cant. those peoples skulls are too thick to think outside their perspective.

 

[LocalAngel]

Honestly i just.. don't understand people. They claim to want to help others, yet confine us into boxes and force us to smile. Force us to stay, and then get surprised when we get upset over it...

People kill animals constantly. We are animals. People forget this. We are genuinely no different, we just have the ability to communicate, and think more clearly. And yet- despite that, we kill animals constantly and don't really think about it much.

When an animal is in severe pain, they get put down. But i don't count because i'm human, apparently.

I'm not sure how your friend doesn't understand the basics. Maybe they're just afraid to look inward- most people are afraid of dying, maybe they aren't ready to accept that death is just apart of being alive. And yet- there's killing every day, all around us. But we don't even process it as such.

People dying on TV has become so normalized. To the point where no one thinks about it. Same goes for covid, yet, that still kills. CONSTANTLY.

But... no, someone trying to take their own life is immoral, apparently. Personally, i consider it immoral to not be more understanding of someone who wants to just leave this cruel, unforgiving world. I'm ranting now though.

tl;dr people don't think about things around them, they'd rather be trapped in their own little bubble of "It's fine!" and i think that's just your friend in a nutshell. Following the pack, not thinking for themselves.

 

[Lost in a Dream]

You're a lot braver than me to try arguing with someone about this.

When it comes to this kind of stuff, sometimes it's best to let the other person bring it up first and see if they're open to other views. Definitely safer that way, but there's also a possibility of turning a soft pro-lifer into a pro-choicer. @CentreMid came up with good suggestions for possible arguments you can use, but the person mentioned in your post might be a lost cause.

Still, maybe you planted some seeds of doubt and they're realizing they have no good arguments for why someone else shouldn't have the right to die. Either way, it's probably best to leave them be and see if their opinion changes later on. Continuing to argue with them might become stressful for you, so maybe finding someone new to discuss this with would be a good idea, just as long as you think it's safe to do it.