Discussion How much altruism resides in 'saving' or stopping a suicidal person?

[Forever Sleep]

To put it another way- what motivates someone to try and 'save' or stop a suicidal person?

Just HOW much are they thinking about that person and their circumstances? I think there may be some altruism there. Some belief that the person's life COULD improve. (Depending on the circumstances of course.) I suppose- if this particular person attributed ALL suicidal ideation to mental illness and they believed ALL mental illness was curable- it would be reasonable TO THEM that the person could be 'saved'.

Maybe I'm just cynical but I wonder if the primary motivation is more selfish than that though. If it's a live situation- someone is just about to CTB- I suspect it's fear. Fear of being implicated legally if they don't try and stop them. Fear of the guilt that comes after- that maybe they COULD have stopped them- if the person was acting impulsively. If it's a loved one- then I imagine it's the fear and dread of guilt, shock and grief. As an outsider, I suppose there could also be an element of virtue signalling in trying to 'save' people.

How much of it do you suppose is conditioning though? It's not like everyone is living some blissful life. It feels more like- this isn't an option ANY of us can take- it's against the rules- don't step out of line type thing. I suppose the more religious folk out there may be wanting to save us from hell- if they happen to believe in all that. Those of them that TRULY believe we are all crazy and incapable of making decisions for ourselves likely feel justified in making decisions for us. (Unjustly I would say in a lot of cases.)

VERY cynically- I think it is also a financial and professional 'problem' for the healthcare and pharamceutical companies. Dead patients don't seek therapy or buy Prozac. It can't look good for a therapist when their patient CTB.

What do you think though? There's that saying: 'There's no such thing as a selfless act.' How much does that apply to preventing suicide? I'd argue that- in the majority of cases- preventing suicide is done for selfish means...

If people REALLY cared so much- they would be more interested in what causes people to be suicidal in the first place rather than putting ALL their focus on trying to stop people going through with the act. Suicide is merely the symptom indicating that that person had something terribly wrong with their life. WHY isn't more emphasis placed on that rather than- oh- it was mental illness. Even if it was mental illness- why weren't they given treatment? If they were- why did the treatment fail?

 

[yufei]

我发现，对于活着的人来说，真正恐惧的不是死亡，而是失去——失去至亲、爱人、朋友，就等于失去了自己的某一部分。我们无法接受的，不是那个人的离去，而是我所拥有的感情，永远消失，无法挽回。当我们挽留一个想轻生的人，其实是在"自私"地挽留着一些我们不想失去的东西。或者只是出于对陌生人的遗憾。可你的后悔在对方长久以来承受的巨大痛苦面前，真的是一文不值。

 

[FuneralCry]

I believe that many of the people who 'save' others from suicide are so blinded by their delusional life valuing beliefs to the point that they force them onto others. I do think that extreme selfishness could play a part in it, if it's a family member or a friend so unfairly stopping a suicide attempt, like they save that person just because they don't want their death to affect them.

But anyway, no matter what interfering with a suicide attempt is something that is disgusting and unacceptable and other people should have no right to interfere, existing isn't an obligation and they don't own the person even if they think differently. Stopping a suicide attempt really is just prolonging suffering, especially in the horrific cases of people ending up with damage because of this.

 

[TAW122]

From my perspective, research, and experiences in life, I would say MOST people are selfish and are doing it for selfish reasons (barring very, very few altruistic people and perhaps close members of that person's circle (e.g. family members, close friend, people who know said person really well, etc.).). It IS definitely very selfish and as far as liability is concerned, I think there may even be a misunderstanding of whether a person is responsible or not. Sure, if the person was a mandated reporter in a particular setting (e.g. a mental health professional and he/she knows beyond a reasonable doubt that his/her patient will imminently CTB, I could see "why" the MHP will report said patient or at the least make some interventions and break confidentiality.), then said person would do so to not only protect his/her livelihood (job/career), but also to avoid legal consequences (criminal chargers, civil litigation from third parties, etc.).

With regards to personal conditioning, social programming, socialization with others, and indoctrination, I would say that plays a big role in how people behave, their beliefs, and views on life and death in general. Furthermore, due to the current modern society's attitude towards death, censorship around topics of suicide and death, glorifying life at all costs (regardless of the circumstances an individual(s) face), these attitudes and heroic mindsets formed in a lot of people. I do find it problematic and illogical that MOST people would presume that people who are mentally ill are also mentally incompetent to make decisions for themselves. If we use that logic, then (just about) all people who commit crimes or does ill actions would never be responsible because they can just claim 'mental illness' and incompetency as a defense and never be held responsible. However, that is clearly not the case and most people still see those who commit crimes or does actions not approved by society (outside the context of CTB) to be mentally competent to be held responsible. (This is a clear example of picking and choosing, hypocrisy simply put).

Therefore, I agree with you, CTB prevention is primarily and solely done out of selfish motives, and very, very rarely done out of other reasons. One could even go as far to argue that one protecting one's own livelihood is innately selfish for said individual as well, and besides very close family members and the extremely rare 'true empath', almost everyone else who does CTB prevention does so out of selfishness, maintaining the status quo (a disgusting and inhumane one too), and to fill their ego ("I did a great thing and showed them help, I'm so proud of myself, yay!" -prolifers). It's a damn shame indeed.

Finally, yes, I agree with you that if people really wanted to help suicidal people, they MUST focus more of why the person wants to CTB rather than ignoring the reasons and causes for said person to want to CTB and only focusing on preventing said person from CTB'ing, and dismissing and invalidating said person's grievances by reducing them to just labels and stigmas. By only doing the latter, they only further alienate the suicidal person, only for the suicidal person to repress said feelings and still (likely) end up attempting to CTB, oftenly causing more damage to unwilling participants. I don't deny that mental illness doesn't exist (it is a thing) but I think the term has been widely thrown around so much it loses it's meaning and starts to become too ubiquitous in describing anyone who is perhaps having a normal reaction to the shitty world around them.

 

[Sapphire]

I don't think that the average person is being selfish when they try to save someone. When most people see someone in trouble, it is their natural instinct to try to help them. They are reacting in the moment and saving someone from immediate danger. They just assume the person will be able to get help for their problems afterwards.

 

[ksp]

you always like to ask the toughest questions

There's that saying: 'There's no such thing as a selfless act.'

that applies to everyone, and in all circumstances - by instinct

humanity is not altruistic: not because we're all evil, but we are built that way - nature
every person is selfish; at every level, at one point or another, depending on circumstances

it takes almost super human powers to achieve altruism - same as voluntary euthanasia, to override natural instincts (this is how i divert my guilt from me, to nature: it's not me being evil - it's nature being evil. period. so now i will continue my existence guilt-free! :)

i have a lot to say about the subject, but i'm trying to restrict the answer to OP…

'How much of it do you suppose is conditioning though?'
100%, pure instinct:
- 100% personal selfish reasons
- 100% society selfish reasons

builtin self-preservation: nature doesn't survive because it learned to give up, or admit defeat
defeat is conceded by any being, only after the last neuron is dead

trying to analyze myself critically: someone is just about to commit suicide

my first automatic steps, in my mind:

- for a stranger, my first thought would be to 'stop':
—- i also want to die, but is your method painless? (don't want you to suffer needlessly)
—- do you need to be understood? (i want you to be at peace, and i don't want to judge you)

if they answer yes to both, i will force myself to step away, but i'm still not selfless: i feel good that i wasn't cruel and indifferent to someone else's pain; i'll also feel good that society will not judge me

- for a loved one: the same two questions, so my first instinct is to stop it, but obviously i'm also trying to avoid my own pain of loosing someone close to me (this is even more selfish of me). but i will still force myself to step away

all your other points are very valid - you constantly make conscious efforts to be objective, impartial, level-headed, reasonable, and fight your internal instincts; you're very diplomatic, but you're also very doubtful about your conclusions; but all your points are always a reflection of your internal struggles

short answer: you need superhuman power to accept someone else's suicide

 

[Euthanza]

How many suicide prevention actually caused permanent damage that if the attempts were not stopped by outside force it should succeed deliberately?

I don't think we have these statistic due to wrong fundamentals of suicide prevention in the world today.

I remember where a guy was saved with brain damage (vegetative) for years before then actually died by starving.
The selfishness of parents is nauseating. How can she stand there smiling next to her son suffering?!

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[Unending]

How many suicide prevention actually caused permanent damage that if the attempts were not stopped by outside force it should succeed deliberately?

I don't think we have these statistic due to wrong fundamentals of suicide prevention in the world today.

I remember where a guy was saved with brain damage (vegetative) for years before then actually died by starving.
The selfishness of parents is nauseating. How can she stand there smiling next to her son suffering?!

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

That article is SO messed up. It ends with "When Helen asks her son if he still wants to die, he blinks twice."
Twice means yes.

This should literally be considered inflicting torture on someone to "Save them" in this circumstance because that is exactly what it is.
I can understand wanting to save somebody but come on now... Your son is saved from a suicide attempt, his life is now ruined, and you still have the audacity to have an article published online (with pictures) talking about your emotions...

Yeah and people question why I want out.
If someone ever tried to save me only for there to be indication that they made the wrong decision but they still felt like they were right, I would be livid.

Anyways, I think there's a big difference between certain circumstances though when it comes to "saving" people but I believe that it's generally more emotionally fueled and the thought process behind it can, at times, be skipping important considerations.

 

[JM2RXA]

I have stopped someone from committing suicide, whilst being on a psych ward myself.

The first thing I'll say is that me stopping the person ate me up a lot, because I knew in that moment that I had taken away someone's right to die, but I would also say that I don't necesarily think it was the wrong decision to stop that person.

The whole situation was fairly slow paced, it wasn't an immediate gut reaction to suddenly stop that person, because ultimately I was and still am in the same position as them.

I know for a fact that if someone stopped me, even if I re-attempted the second they disappeared, I wouldn't blame that person for stopping me because I think there's an element of natrual coding/survival instinct that forces us to want to help and having had a conversation with the person in length the day after, they also agreed.

It's why you might stop in the street and provide first aid; I didn't know this person, if they died it wouldn't impact me in the slightest.

I like the quote, "The only people who are able to look favourably on the question of why not commit suicide, are the fortunate and the ignorant".

Yes, I can see entirely why it can be easy to think people are being selfish and blindsighted to save someone from suicide, however it is a case of ignorance and fortune... I don't think in the immediate situation they are taking the time to think, "I'm doing this to save face".

Having said that, in cases of medically assisted suicide for degenerative illnesses where there is the time to think and talk to the person, I would treat differently. (E.g. I think a distinction needs to be made between spotting someone committing suicide, and disagreeing with someone's decision to commit suicide).

 

[SamTam33]

...I remember where a guy was saved with brain damage (vegetative) for years before then actually died by starving.
The selfishness of parents is nauseating. How can she stand there smiling next to her son suffering?!
...

Because the love for herself is greater than the love for her son. That's how it is for most parents, regardless of what they say. Actions are louder than words.

THEIR wants for you will take precedence over YOUR wants for yourself.

She explicitly says he wanted to die, then nonchalantly shares that she prayed for the opposite to happen.

Then she goes on to talk about how horrible the ordeal is for her, even though it's her doing.

I wouldn't be surprised if the personality disorder he suffered from was inherited from her.