How many people here, given the choice of whether or not to be alive, would not have chosen life?

[Darkover]

I would not have chosen to exist. What really is there? being a wage slave dealing with dumbasses and assholes against my will and probably will be to the point of death because retirement is a thing of the past. Everyday is basically me just following a routine, hoping to avoid trauma and stress all the while trying not to dwell on my existential dread and remembering past traumas and regrets.

I would have preferred nonexistence but nobody got my consent before thrusting me into this word. A sort of existential rape has occurred.

A child never gives its consent to be dragged kicking and screaming into this reality, and forcing it to is unconscionable.
The only certainty in life is death, The most terrifying thing to a human is death. By bringing a child into the world, you force another being into a form of existential bondage where it is perpetually frightened of and certain of its own impending death. It's completely unjustifiable.

 

[reallysleepy]

Same. I'm mad at my parents for having the selfish idea of having a kid

 

[Forever Sleep]

No, if we do indeed get the choice to come here (which I doubt,) I reckon the life agent or whoever promoted it lied. Maybe they have these glossy magazines full of only the very best things in life.

The only reason I imagine we would choose this is if where we were was some place worse. People don't seem to consider that much. If they even believe we do come from somewhere- why should it be any better?!! Just because we don't remember it. Maybe I was in hell before and this was a step up!

The only other thing I imagine that would have 'sold' it to me is if they had told me about my parents. My Mum especially wanted children. I hope maybe the compassionate part of me made that come true for her. Not so sure in retrospect that I would be so generous. She died 3 years later anyhow. Maybe I'd let someone else volunteer in retrospect. I wasn't the best candidate for my life.

Do you really believe that though? That we do get the choice? Seems to hinge on religion. Maybe that we are supposed to learn or experience something. That's the thing though- if it is towards something- presumably we knew what that was. Either life appeared to be more interesting than non existence. If you actually think you're conscious but in some black void for however long- that's got to be boring. Or, there is in fact a greater purpose to it all that we knew at that point.

 

[doneforlife]

I would not have chosen to exist. What really is there? being a wage slave dealing with dumbasses and assholes against my will and probably will be to the point of death because retirement is a thing of the past. Everyday is basically me just following a routine, hoping to avoid trauma and stress all the while trying not to dwell on my existential dread and remembering past traumas and regrets.

I would have preferred nonexistence but nobody got my consent before thrusting me into this word. A sort of existential rape has occurred.

A child never gives its consent to be dragged kicking and screaming into this reality, and forcing it to is unconscionable.
The only certainty in life is death, The most terrifying thing to a human is death. By bringing a child into the world, you force another being into a form of existential bondage where it is perpetually frightened of and certain of its own impending death. It's completely unjustifiable.

True. Only if there is non existence on the other side. At the end of the day, we don't know. I am not saying there is an after life, but I am not denying it either.

When I look at the arrangements of this world, it's hard for me to digest that everything fell into place conveniently to form life. From what I observe, life forms seem to be a continuous endeavour of trying to better itself from the previous life form. For example a virus , known to be the boundary between living and non living...it can't reproduce. It doesn't have the mechanism necessary in its own cell and depends on the host. So the next life form is to have everything packed into 1 cell where you can create proteins, grow and duplicate (binary fission). There might have been some restrictions there as well, hence mitosis came into picture. Then multi celled organisms followed. Life forms have been built brick by brick to reach the most complex forms. I mean , who knows, there might be some other life form somewhere else experimenting on planet earth .

 

[Darkover]

Do you really believe that though? That we do get the choice?

absolutely not i don't think we have any choice in being born

True. Only if there is non existence on the other side. At the end of the day, we don't know. I am not saying there is an after life, but I am not denying it either.

i can 100 percent say without any doubt that once you die everything you are dies along with it thats not to say you can't be reborn somewhere somehow

 

[doneforlife]

No, if we do indeed get the choice to come here (which I doubt,) I reckon the life agent or whoever promoted it lied. Maybe they have these glossy magazines full of only the very best things in life.

The only reason I imagine we would choose this is if where we were was some place worse. People don't seem to consider that much. If they even believe we do come from somewhere- why should it be any better?!! Just because we don't remember it. Maybe I was in hell before and this was a step up!

The only other thing I imagine that would have 'sold' it to me is if they had told me about my parents. My Mum especially wanted children. I hope maybe the compassionate part of me made that come true for her. Not so sure in retrospect that I would be so generous. She died 3 years later anyhow. Maybe I'd let someone else volunteer in retrospect. I wasn't the best candidate for my life.

Do you really believe that though? That we do get the choice? Seems to hinge on religion. Maybe that we are supposed to learn or experience something. That's the thing though- if it is towards something- presumably we knew what that was. Either life appeared to be more interesting than non existence. If you actually think you're conscious but in some black void for however long- that's got to be boring. Or, there is in fact a greater purpose to it all that we knew at that point.

The sad reality is...we will never know. From where we came, to where will we go.

absolutely not i don't think we have any choice in being born

i can 100 percent say without any doubt that once you die everything you are dies along with it thats not to say you can't be reborn somewhere somehow

Yes , everything dies. But if I am reborn, I am still carrying me to another life. What's that "me".. it's not my previous body or my previous memory or my previous relationships. But it's still "me".

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Most of the posts in this thread seem to me to be overshadowed by the assumptions of pessimism. I'm not advocating for optimism by any means, but only a neutral approach, devoid of our will to meaning (I.e., to see good and bad in everything despite the universe being indifferent). Many people feel life is a gift. It isn't for me, but I think most people don't have it so bad and that's part of what makes it insidiously unfair; a lot of people are well-adjusted. I just ended up being one of the exceptions :(

That's all to say that the moral ascriptions of conception are probably not all that comparable to some egregious crime, but is far more complex given that you're forcing a potential gift, with some small likelihood of immense suffering. This is not the same as the various crimes that transgress bodily autonomy, or the right to self-determination for example. There is perhaps a moral hierarchy whereby people are complicit when they choose to have children while being in circumstances (mentally or externally) that are not suitable for child-rearing.

Then there are accidents of conception which confuse the nature of moral responsibility.

Either way, I think it is absurd to deny an adult the right to ctb. Along the lines of the right to self-determination...

 

[Forever Sleep]

The sad reality is...we will never know. From where we came, to where will we go.

Yes , everything dies. But if I am reborn, I am still carrying me to another life. What's that "me".. it's not my previous body or my previous memory or my previous relationships. But it's still "me".

We probably won't know in this life. I guess we'll either find out eventually- if we do somehow live on or- we'll go to sleep one day and not wake up to have another thought.

Most of the posts in this thread seem to me to be overshadowed by the assumptions of pessimism. I'm not advocating for optimism by any means, but only that maybe some people feel life is a gift. It isn't for me, but I think most people don't have it so bad and that's part of what makes it insidiously unfair; a lot of people are well-adjusted. I just ended up being one of the exceptions :(

You won't be an exception here... I imagine the majority of people here would view life as a curse rather than a gift.

That said- I've always found the whole idea so weird- that we choose to come here and maybe choose the level of difficulty to play at! You're right though- maybe we aren't pessimistic at that point. Presumably, we're not entirely human either. We don't have a physical body presumably. What if we'd never been human though. That's pretty unfair- to expect us to make a decision we can't even comprehend.

I don't know- I don't subscribe to this line of thought. However- for some that do- I don't think they see it as just some lucky dip deal- 'You wanna have a go at being mortal?' I think some believe we actually know what our life on earth will have in store for us. That we choose to encounter these particular set of difficulties. God knows why though. That's why I think we would have to know what it was all for. If we willingly entered into a life with lots of suffering in it- we must have seen good reason to do that. Or, maybe we're just dumb and gullible at that stage. Or- hugely optimistic.

 

[doneforlife]

Most of the posts in this thread seem to me to be overshadowed by the assumptions of pessimism. I'm not advocating for optimism by any means, but only a neutral approach, devoid of our will to meaning (I.e., to see good and bad in everything despite the universe being indifferent). Many people feel life is a gift. It isn't for me, but I think most people don't have it so bad and that's part of what makes it insidiously unfair; a lot of people are well-adjusted. I just ended up being one of the exceptions :(

That's all to say that the moral ascriptions of conception are probably not all that comparable to some egregious crime, but is far more complex given that you're forcing a potential gift, with some small likelihood of immense suffering. This is not the same as the various crimes that transgress bodily autonomy, or the right to self-determination for example. There is perhaps a moral hierarchy whereby people are complicit when they choose to have children while being in circumstances (mentally or externally) that are not suitable for child-rearing.

Then there are accidents of conception which confuse the nature of moral responsibility.

Either way, I think it is absurd to deny an adult the right to ctb. Along the lines of the right to self-determination...

Religions mostly deal with this aspect. Why is someone born into a family of wealth, great parenting and why is someone born into poverty , absent parents, and a life full of struggles. Practically, there is no answer. So instead of attributing this to random distribution, human mind came up with a good reasoning. The only way this makes sense is , if you have prevailing karmas. Your karma determines where you are born, what you face , how you die. I do have my reservations about this theory , but at times this makes sense.

 

[Rhizomorph1]

Religions mostly deal with this aspect. Why is someone born into a family of wealth, great parenting and why is someone born into poverty , absent parents, and a life full of struggles. Practically, there is no answer. So instead of attributing this to random distribution, human mind came up with a good reasoning. The only way this makes sense is , if you have prevailing karmas. Your karma determines where you are born, what you face , how you die. I do have my reservations about this theory , but at times this makes sense.

It's still an a-priori assumption, and at best reflects the very will to meaning (wanting to make a positive interpretation) I mentioned before. Notions of karma may also culturally restrict and reproduce real-world conditions of suffering by preventing more thorough critical theoretical analyses of social inequality. It may not appear that way on the surface as it encourages individuals to do good to reduce their karma, but it does prevent systems-level accountability via cultural influence. Implicit assumptions guide behavior en masse.

I'm a Buddhist, but I've really lost touch with Buddhist cosmology as I contemplate and mature my reasoning... I now practice it for the aesthetics/to pass the time. As of right now I have no explanation as the cosmological question remains further out of reach. The mystery is so incredibly beautiful and terrifying simultaneously, but I have to concern myself with material things in front of me like the pain to wake up and feed myself; it's hard to create independent meaning from something that the rest of the world has codified into various ideologies despite the fact that symbolic interpretations seem impossibly unrealistic. It doesn't do me anything to sit outside the confines of good and evil and admire this mystery; my body tells me it needs food and social connection, but I'm an alien to everyone so it just... hurts.

What came before god? and before that? ad infinitum.
What came before the big bang? and before that? ad infinitum.

All I know is the confines of good and evil are too redundant and over-simplistic for there to be any all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful god (one that according to Abrahamic logic would cast me to hell). As such, my death cannot reasonably result in predictable increases in my suffering; if I have a soul, its future is undoubtedly as abstract as its genesis into this body. It seems more likely that I'll end up in the void, though. But that's just my hunch since all the alternative hypotheses seem to be ripe with codification/the will to symbolic & emotional meaning.

Hope this made sense, I'm gonna go masturbate.

 

[k1w1]

Sitting in the warm dark theatre of my daddy's gonads with all my brothers & sisters. Watching the LIFE marketing promo that showed childhood joys, my unique job of 30 years, lots of love, sex, drugs, travel & ecstatic moments. I simply would have swum my tail twice off to have it all. It didnt get hard until my late 50's.

 

[WAITING TO DIE]

I would have chosen not to be born because I think the human body is flawed and causes too much suffering.
I also don't like human nature in general because we are largely a stupid and selfish species .
We also live in a predatory system both in the natural world and in society in general.
I find most things about human existence unpleasant.

 

[doneforlife]

At the end of the day, everything is a belief system. A coping mechanism perhaps. Being too curious about the cosmological queries might be a curse in itself. The normal mundane life may be the real blessing. Get busy living..

 

[just_a_guy]

I think a lot of people view this question as a choice between life and death. I don't like either option, I've always leaned towards just not existing

 

[Rhizomorph1]

At the end of the day, everything is a belief system. A coping mechanism perhaps. Being too curious about the cosmological queries might be a curse in itself. The normal mundane life may be the real blessing. Get busy living..

You're absolutely god damned right.

Thank you. I needed to hear this more than you know

 

[Manfrotto99]

I would of chosen not to exist. The older I get, the more I realise just how much we are a product of an unfair and unjust society that dictates our life from the moment we are born. I believe in chaos and chance and not a "just world philosophy" based on karma or some other belief that says "good things happen to good people" . It can make logical sense, makes us feel good or makes us ashamed and feel bad and it takes a sense of responsibility away from the advantaged in society....ie your responsible for your own luck. But its just another human construct to boost the ego. Sadly its everywhere and ingrained in everything in this existence.

 

[Unattainable666]

I would never have chosen to be born. My life has been nothing but a shit show. Now due to fear of failure I have to continue living this horrendous life until I finally die. Death will not come soon enough

 

[doneforlife]

I would of chosen not to exist. The older I get, the more I realise just how much we are a product of an unfair and unjust society that dictates our life from the moment we are born. I believe in chaos and chance and not a "just world philosophy" based on karma or some other belief that says "good things happen to good people" . It can make logical sense, makes us feel good or makes us ashamed and feel bad and it takes a sense of responsibility away from the advantaged in society....ie your responsible for your own luck. But its just another human construct to boost the ego. Sadly its everywhere and ingrained in everything in this existence.

I sometimes have faith in karma. And "those" sometimes are when we know with absolute guarantee that we are doing something wrong and still go ahead and do it. But then there are so many instances where we do wrong either because of circumstances or because of indoctrination. How does karma operate in such scenarios? Take example of Sati system. Wife used to burn themselves alive in the husband's pyre. This system was brutal. But people still did it due to indoctrination that they were doing something great. So is the example of animal offerings and the list goes on. People commit crimes without knowing that it's crime. I don't know how karma operates in such cases.

 

[Manfrotto99]

I sometimes have faith in karma. And "those" sometimes are when we know with absolute guarantee that we are doing something wrong and still go ahead and do it. But then there are so many instances where we do wrong either because of circumstances or because of indoctrination. How does karma operate in such scenarios? Take example of Sati system. Wife used to burn themselves alive in the husband's pyre. This system was brutal. But people still did it due to indoctrination that they were doing something great. So is the example of animal offerings and the list goes on. People commit crimes without knowing that it's crime. I don't know how karma operates in such cases.

"I don't know how karma operates in such cases."

I guess that depends on what belief system you choose to adhere to.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

Depends on the parameters...

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I'd really prefer to live if I found a way out of the hole I'm trapped in. If I can find a way to generate means for a good life according to my definition I'd really prefer to live.

 

[FuneralCry]

Never. I only wish for nothingness, only nothingness is desirable. I see no value in being enslaved in this existence, I don't believe that life should had ever existed at all. I don't get why anyone would prefer the harmful burden that is existence over the peaceful eternity of nothingness. Only never existing prevents all suffering, more than anything I wish I never existed.

I see it as criminal to burden one with the ability to suffer in this decaying flesh prison where they cannot easily free themselves in peace, the fact that we cannot easily die despite the fact we were cruelly forced here in the first place just makes existence even more hellish.

 

[cryvinglightning]

i would choose to be alive with a few "adjustments" to my life to not make it such a pain. but then it would turn into a "ship of theseus" situation.

 

[Dead Ghost]

If this were possible, how would you know which option to choose without having first tasted life? In any case... can you make this decision without being born, alive or having lived?.

In any case, I have a personal belief that if we are here it is because we wanted to, because otherwise it would mean that we are just irrelevant.

//

Si això fos possible, com sabries quina opció triar sense haver fet abans un tast de vida?, en tot cas... es pot prendre aquesta decisió sense nèixer, estar viu o haver viscut?.

En tot cas tinc la creença personal de que si som aquí es perquè ho hem volgut, perquè sino significaría que només sóm irrellevants.

 

[doneforlife]

If this were possible, how would you know which option to choose without having first tasted life? In any case... can you make this decision without being born, alive or having lived?.

In any case, I have a personal belief that if we are here it is because we wanted to, because otherwise it would mean that we are just irrelevant.

//

Si això fos possible, com sabries quina opció triar sense haver fet abans un tast de vida?, en tot cas... es pot prendre aquesta decisió sense nèixer, estar viu o haver viscut?.

En tot cas tinc la creença personal de que si som aquí es perquè ho hem volgut, perquè sino significaría que només sóm irrellevants.

I don't believe we are here because we chose to. If that was the case and our choice was what brought us here , then we should also go back to oblivion the moment we choose not to continue any more.

 

[Dead Ghost]

I don't believe we are here because we chose to. If that was the case and our choice was what brought us here , then we should also go back to oblivion the moment we choose not to continue any more.

Hopefully.
//
Tant de bo.

 

[Sans]

That depends. Would I have the knowledge of the horrors and the injustices of existence?

 

[𝗟𝗼𝗻𝗲𝗹𝘆]

If you mean it in a way of not being born at all then I wouldn't choose life for sure. If I was never born I wouldn't even know that.

 

[disabledlife]

I have already created lots of threads in SaSu forums to tell my life story. I also see the unhappiness and despair of many members here in SaSu, I have lost faith in human beings. Yes, I never asked to be born, especially since I was born disabled, to selfish parents, in a rotten place and country, which only thinks about mass procreation, helped by generous allowances, reductions for large families, etc!!!

 

[tiger b]

i can 100 percent say without any doubt that once you die everything you are dies along with it thats not to say you can't be reborn somewhere somehow

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion, and a very plausible one. But 100% sure?

Maybe everything that we are not, rather than what we actually are, dies 'along with it'.

On the question: 'It's not that I can find worth in anything...it's just that I can't find worth in enough'.