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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
I'm sure many of the people here consider life to be generally meaningless. My question is: how do you live your lives with that belief? Do you just drift around without any objectives? After all, everything that people obtain is going to disappear in due time. I'm certainly struggling with what to do with my life. I don't think I'm depressed, my life is decent; I'm mainly confused on what to make of myself.

Thanks for any responses. This is my first post by the way !!
 
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UKscotty

Doesn't read PMs
May 20, 2021
2,451
Depression for me is like a wave, sometimes it's there and life and existence is pointless, the next I see the miracle and joy of life.

When the depression hits all life seems pointless and there is no energy for anything, mindset is all negative and I see only bad.
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
Depression for me is like a wave, sometimes it's there and life and existence is pointless, the next I see the miracle and joy of life.

When the depression hits all life seems pointless and there is no energy for anything, mindset is all negative and I see only bad.
If you don't mind me asking, what do you do when you have these waves of depression?
 
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MyChoiceAlone

MyChoiceAlone

sleep deprived and/or drunk
Jul 23, 2023
1,183
certainly. i feel the same. why accumulate/achieve when you you can't take anything with you?
 
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thinvy

thinvy

Woefully Yours, Luka
Aug 7, 2023
197
I'd call myself an existential nihilist, but yeah. To not live is to die, ya feel? I live life by existing meaninglessly, yeah. But this doesn't have to be a depressing thought. Do jellyfish care that they practically do nothing their entire existences in the ocean?

While I am horrifically depressed, that has very little to do being a meaningless speck of dust to our solar system, our solar system a meaningless speck of dust to our galaxy, and our galaxy a speck of dust to the universe. I personally think the ephemerality of life is what makes it special. I've lived a hard life, and gone through many horrid things, and I'm just simply too tired to continue on much longer.

I think others find meaning to their lives in the ephemeral as well. They know deep down that one day they will be space dust again, but currently, they exist. In a web of massive coincidences one after the other, they exist, and so do those around them. The fact that anyone exists at all is an insane improbability. But they do, and so do you. We won't matter in 50 years, 100 years, 1000 years, but to most people, the connections we made while alive matter. If existence was permanent, no one would care about how special it is to exist and be able to interact with one another.

Does it matter that I found a vendor online who is selling the exact pair of toy bunnies my sister and I had as children? No. Are they even particularly special? As far as I can tell, no. I could barely find any information on them at all. But the sentimentality that will be erased with my death (most likely) still matters to me now. I could've gotten any little bunny toy, or a real rabbit, and no one would care or bat an eye.

to change direction slightly, why life life uncomfortably? because it is easier, less effort? why do anything at all? why buy nice things if they don't last?
satisfaction is satisfaction, long term or short. why smoke if you get cancer? why drink if you get hungover/liver failure? why party late at night if you wake up exhausted, sticky, and sore? because to be alive is to pursue satisfaction.

TL;DR: it's my deeply held belief that nothing really matters but like.... that can be a good thing. My traumas will not exist forever. The bad things that happened to me will be over when I die, never tormenting me or anyone else again. Do whatever, as long as you don't intentionally harm others! Live life until you're done in whatever way you can.

Insane reading all that I just wrote and also knowing that I don't plan to be here same time next year, haha
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
certainly. i feel the same. why accumulate/achieve when you you can't take anything with you?
Agreed, why does society frame life as so achievement focused...
 
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UKscotty

Doesn't read PMs
May 20, 2021
2,451
If you don't mind me asking, what do you do when you have these waves of depression?
It's really random day to day. Sometimes wake up hating life, some days feel so grateful to be alive and look forward to the day.

Been like this for 25 years so I am used to it 😆
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
It's really random day to day. Sometimes wake up hating life, some days feel so grateful to be alive and look forward to the day.

Been like this for 25 years so I am used to it 😆
The duality of man as they say :))
I'd call myself an existential nihilist, but yeah. To not live is to die, ya feel? I live life by existing meaninglessly, yeah. But this doesn't have to be a depressing thought. Do jellyfish care that they practically do nothing their entire existences in the ocean?

While I am horrifically depressed, that has very little to do being a meaningless speck of dust to our solar system, our solar system a meaningless speck of dust to our galaxy, and our galaxy a speck of dust to the universe. I personally think the ephemerality of life is what makes it special. I've lived a hard life, and gone through many horrid things, and I'm just simply too tired to continue on much longer.

I think others find meaning to their lives in the ephemeral as well. They know deep down that one day they will be space dust again, but currently, they exist. In a web of massive coincidences one after the other, they exist, and so do those around them. The fact that anyone exists at all is an insane improbability. But they do, and so do you. We won't matter in 50 years, 100 years, 1000 years, but to most people, the connections we made while alive matter. If existence was permanent, no one would care about how special it is to exist and be able to interact with one another.

Does it matter that I found a vendor online who is selling the exact pair of toy bunnies my sister and I had as children? No. Are they even particularly special? As far as I can tell, no. I could barely find any information on them at all. But the sentimentality that will be erased with my death (most likely) still matters to me now. I could've gotten any little bunny toy, or a real rabbit, and no one would care or bat an eye.

to change direction slightly, why life life uncomfortably? because it is easier, less effort? why do anything at all? why buy nice things if they don't last?
satisfaction is satisfaction, long term or short. why smoke if you get cancer? why drink if you get hungover/liver failure? why party late at night if you wake up exhausted, sticky, and sore? because to be alive is to pursue satisfaction.

TL;DR: it's my deeply held belief that nothing really matters but like.... that can be a good thing. My traumas will not exist forever. The bad things that happened to me will be over when I die, never tormenting me or anyone else again. Do whatever, as long as you don't intentionally harm others! Live life until you're done in whatever way you can.

Insane reading all that I just wrote and also knowing that I don't plan to be here same time next year, haha
That's a great take on life or death. Personally, I used to think of fulfilment as a sort of "fuel" for life, which seems like the exact opposite of the satisfaction that you talk about. More specifically, I used to think that life was all about seeking out happiness through difficult undertakings; enjoying the struggles and challenges. But now, I think too much suffering is caused by pushing satisfaction too far into the future. On the other hand, I don't really know how to live any other way.
 
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BlessedBeTheFlame

All things are nothing to me
Feb 2, 2024
149
I like to give the counterpoint: How do you live life, knowing its meaning? People would lose their freedom in life, as their actions would only be measured by how well it aligns with this meaning. How do we know it's something like "gaining knowledge" or "helping other people". To quote from Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut: "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne."
Someone already mentioned nihilism and went a bit into existentialism, but I fall into a third category: absurdism. That humans wish to seek meaning and will only ever be met by an uncaring universe is the absurd and recognizing it makes you an absurdist. Ultimately life is meaningless, but I'm not keen on rejecting meaning entirely like nihilists would. It can be fruitful to try finding value or meaning of our own. Similarly, I doubt we can or need to construct our own meaning like existentialists would say. The end point of this dillemma is to also see that our lack of meaning and the uncaring nature of the universe is what makes us free. Consider the ruler of a country as an example of what this may entail. On the one hand, one might have a benevolent, but totalitarian, ruler. Examples often brought up are Thomas Sankara, Fidel Castro, Josip Broz Tito or Lee Kuan Yew. This is similar to a life with a strict meaning, imposed on us. On the other is an almost anarchistic state, in which humans are truly free to pursue what they want, but may be faced with pain in doing so. This is what I believe is the case, a life devoid of meaning. I know many people would beg to differ, but I truly believe the latter is better overall.
 
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Argo

Specialist
May 19, 2018
355
If life were meaningless, there would be no need to distinguish between the quality of dying and living. Life and death both matter because life is not meaningless. The moment you have conscious things, you have meaning. What people mean when they use the word 'meaning' this way is really just a statement about ethics, though. They're saying that ethics is incoherent when they say life has no meaning.

It's more psychologically destabilizing to believe things really matter in a pretty bad world, than it is to just say nothing matters in a pretty bad world. The second one is nice and neat, psychologically. There's no problem to fight with, and that's the appeal. It's not because nihilism makes sense, it's self-defeating if you just scrutinize it.
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
I like to give the counterpoint: How do you live life, knowing its meaning? People would lose their freedom in life, as their actions would only be measured by how well it aligns with this meaning. How do we know it's something like "gaining knowledge" or "helping other people". To quote from Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut: "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne."
Someone already mentioned nihilism and went a bit into existentialism, but I fall into a third category: absurdism. That humans wish to seek meaning and will only ever be met by an uncaring universe is the absurd and recognizing it makes you an absurdist. Ultimately life is meaningless, but I'm not keen on rejecting meaning entirely like nihilists would. It can be fruitful to try finding value or meaning of our own. Similarly, I doubt we can or need to construct our own meaning like existentialists would say. The end point of this dillemma is to also see that our lack of meaning and the uncaring nature of the universe is what makes us free. Consider the ruler of a country as an example of what this may entail. On the one hand, one might have a benevolent, but totalitarian, ruler. Examples often brought up are Thomas Sankara, Fidel Castro, Josip Broz Tito or Lee Kuan Yew. This is similar to a life with a strict meaning, imposed on us. On the other is an almost anarchistic state, in which humans are truly free to pursue what they want, but may be faced with pain in doing so. This is what I believe is the case, a life devoid of meaning. I know many people would beg to differ, but I truly believe the latter is better overall.
I'm really getting to hear a lot of varied perspectives. Your writing reminds of the theme of "Brave New World", where the author makes the distinction of a life of happiness and one of freedom. He's able to establish that obtaining happiness is quite easy in reality, but it leaves people feeling lacking. In the end, one of the characters can be seen hitting themselves with a whip, yet completely content in their freedom.

Absurdism is a philosophy I've never really understood. Maybe because I've never really considered freedom something I valued too much (but I really haven't experienced a lack of it either). I get the philosophy at the core, the universe is meaningless, so it is futile to project meaning, but I could never really get what Camus was trying to get people to do (if you know what I mean).
If life were meaningless, there would be no need to distinguish between the quality of dying and living. Life and death both matter because life is not meaningless. The moment you have conscious things, you have meaning. What people mean when they use the word 'meaning' this way is really just a statement about ethics, though. They're saying that ethics is incoherent when they say life has no meaning.

It's more psychologically destabilizing to believe things really matter in a pretty bad world, than it is to just say nothing matters in a pretty bad world. The second one is nice and neat, psychologically. There's no problem to fight with, and that's the appeal. It's not because nihilism makes sense, it's self-defeating if you just scrutinize it.
Just to satisfy my curiosity, how would you define meaning?
 
F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
8,148
I used to set my own objectives. Creativity used to be my main drive in life. I don't need everyone to agree with me. I don't even need everyone to like my work. I just need enough people to like it to pay me for it! It used to give me my sense of purpose and, so long as I could keep body and soul together, things were peachy. It's gone a bit wrong now but, that's something else.

If I'm honest though- I find the necessity for some universal meaning a bit odd too. I mean- I understand it to an extent. Especially if people are suffering- they want some sort of justification as to why they should endure it.

But still- a universal meaning? What would you like that to be? Do you think it would make you happier to have some goal you know you ought to work towards?

So- let's try it: 'The meaning of life is to be happy.' I'm guessing we're all pretty much failing at that... 'The meaning of life is to become the best version of yourself you can be.' I imagine most of us are failing there too. 'You already have the meaning of life in the religious texts you have.' What if you have doubts? What if you're gay but your religion doesn't support that? I don't get why people crave more rules? Surely- rules and expectations are some of the things that have made us most unhappy in life?

I mean- I get it. It's frustrating that we don't know so many things. It's weird that we have self awareness. Why do we have that? What creates it? But then, there's a certain freedom in not knowing. That can be a good thing. What if the angry Christian God is real and we find out- we really ought to be following all those commandments and avoiding all those deadly sins? Do you think that would make life more fun? Is that what would make life better? Complete obedience? Why do people assume the meaning of life will be something good for us? Maybe we're better off having the freedom to choose our own values.

This weirdly reminds me of the film 'The Lobster'. Have you seen it? *Spoiler Alert* In that dystopian society, single people must enter into a romantic relationship within 45 days or, be turned into an animal of their choosing. But, there are also strict rules on who they pair with.

But yeah- that's the kind of thing I imagine. If we had some set goal, that would surely make competition for whatever that thing was worse. What if you didn't even desire that thing? It's bad enough in this day and age when you happen to be better at subjects that aren't valued so much. But, imagine if you had to become a physicist and you didn't understand any of it. I don't understand why people think things would be so much better if we were told what we were supposed to be doing or, told what it was all about. It wouldn't change the fact that some of us most likely would be born with defecits or, be restricted financially or whatever to achieve those things. Now- with something more they can fail at- why would that bring peace?

I guess that's why people will often go for- 'The meaning of life is to become the best version of yourself.' That is solely dependent on your own limits but it's largely open to interpretation. I don't think that's a bad idea though. To try and better yourself in whatever area- preferably, all areas you can. Personal achievement can bring us a sense of satisfaction. It's better than feeling like you've wasted your whole life and you're a failure.

But then- whatever really. If nihilism is someone's bag. If feeling like they've worked out 'the truth'- that it's all utterly pointless. That nothing is worth their effort. Then- fine. Not sure that makes people any happier but, they can feel true to themselves I guess.
 
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Argo

Specialist
May 19, 2018
355
Just to satisfy my curiosity, how would you define meaning?

I did try to clear it up there-- I wrote that I think what people are talking about when they use the word "meaning", is actually ethics. Imagine saying "Oh, right and wrong really do matter, but... there's no meaning." <-- Huh? No... right? That makes no sense at all. It's easier to make a case for nihilism when one says "There is no meaning", because it's actually just a claim about ethics: "There are no moral facts/things don't actually matter in an ethical sense". Nihilism implies moral nihilism. If it were true, then it wouldn't matter if one lived or died(or how they did it), there would be no problem to solve at all.
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
I used to set my own objectives. Creativity used to be my main drive in life. I don't need everyone to agree with me. I don't even need everyone to like my work. I just need enough people to like it to pay me for it! It used to give me my sense of purpose and, so long as I could keep body and soul together, things were peachy. It's gone a bit wrong now but, that's something else.

If I'm honest though- I find the necessity for some universal meaning a bit odd too. I mean- I understand it to an extent. Especially if people are suffering- they want some sort of justification as to why they should endure it.

But still- a universal meaning? What would you like that to be? Do you think it would make you happier to have some goal you know you ought to work towards?

So- let's try it: 'The meaning of life is to be happy.' I'm guessing we're all pretty much failing at that... 'The meaning of life is to become the best version of yourself you can be.' I imagine most of us are failing there too. 'You already have the meaning of life in the religious texts you have.' What if you have doubts? What if you're gay but your religion doesn't support that? I don't get why people crave more rules? Surely- rules and expectations are some of the things that have made us most unhappy in life?

I mean- I get it. It's frustrating that we don't know so many things. It's weird that we have self awareness. Why do we have that? What creates it? But then, there's a certain freedom in not knowing. That can be a good thing. What if the angry Christian God is real and we find out- we really ought to be following all those commandments and avoiding all those deadly sins? Do you think that would make life more fun? Is that what would make life better? Complete obedience? Why do people assume the meaning of life will be something good for us? Maybe we're better off having the freedom to choose our own values.

This weirdly reminds me of the film 'The Lobster'. Have you seen it? *Spoiler Alert* In that dystopian society, single people must enter into a romantic relationship within 45 days or, be turned into an animal of their choosing. But, there are also strict rules on who they pair with.

But yeah- that's the kind of thing I imagine. If we had some set goal, that would surely make competition for whatever that thing was worse. What if you didn't even desire that thing? It's bad enough in this day and age when you happen to be better at subjects that aren't valued so much. But, imagine if you had to become a physicist and you didn't understand any of it. I don't understand why people think things would be so much better if we were told what we were supposed to be doing or, told what it was all about. It wouldn't change the fact that some of us most likely would be born with defecits or, be restricted financially or whatever to achieve those things. Now- with something more they can fail at- why would that bring peace?

I guess that's why people will often go for- 'The meaning of life is to become the best version of yourself.' That is solely dependent on your own limits but it's largely open to interpretation. I don't think that's a bad idea though. To try and better yourself in whatever area- preferably, all areas you can. Personal achievement can bring us a sense of satisfaction. It's better than feeling like you've wasted your whole life and you're a failure.

But then- whatever really. If nihilism is someone's bag. If feeling like they've worked out 'the truth'- that it's all utterly pointless. That nothing is worth their effort. Then- fine. Not sure that makes people any happier but, they can feel true to themselves I guess.
I think people generally create more rules (even when pointlessly unnecessary), because it is human nature to make concepts simpler to understand. Even though a universal meaning would most likely be bad for them, why do people search for it? Most likely because they are confused; and the natural response is to get clarity.
All these philosophical discussions for the past thousands of years have just illustrated how humans were never designed to be sophisticated. Sure, we have large prefrontal cortexes and can speak to each other. Do you know what other animals can speak to each other? Dolphins; but dolphins definitely aren't worried about the meanings of their lives. They are simply concerned about eating and reproducing. I think the only way for a universal meaning to ever exist is if it's just a simple one. Maybe: getting enough food or getting enough sleep.

By the way, the movie you mentioned sounds so wild. I'm going to have to check it out if I can remember to.
I did try to clear it up there-- I wrote that I think what people are talking about when they use the word "meaning", is actually ethics. Imagine saying "Oh, right and wrong really do matter, but... there's no meaning." <-- Huh? No... right? That makes no sense at all. It's easier to make a case for nihilism when one says "There is no meaning", because it's actually just a claim about ethics: "There are no moral facts/things don't actually matter in an ethical sense". Nihilism implies moral nihilism. If it were true, then it wouldn't matter if one lived or died(or how they did it), there would be no problem to solve at all.
Oh sorry about that... I must have misread.
 
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Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
10,077
I don't think I'm depressed, my life is decent; I'm mainly confused on what to make of myself.
How do you define "decent" for yourself? Ik that many people here despise life bc of personal reasons, rejecting the "system" and possibly other stuff but it's their personal choice among potential MH issues some here might be facing that are caused by a "terrible life quality" that could easily be solved if they had more money/better outlook for their future and deep personal desires. That stuff is complex and highly individual!

I, for myself, never thought like that for over 4 decades - neither in my childhood, youth or early adulthood. I Liked to play the game and I had options to do it the way I wanted to do it. After a big failure I can't play the game anymore rather I only have the I option of becoming a "game piece" or CTB and I'd prefer CTB.

Life itself is meaningless - it's that for all living creatures except humans - bc our life is more than just eating and sleeping and reproducing. Our life is based on money without that "fuel" you'd die of hunger in the worst case!

Nature - if we live in our natural habitat - would give everything we need for free like nature does for all other living creatures.

This is the actual problem. We humans created an artificial environment in which we force ourselves to live in but our natural evolution is still in process to adapt to it.
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
How do you define "decent" for yourself? Ik that many people here despise life bc of personal reasons, rejecting the "system" and possibly other stuff but it's their personal choice among potential MH issues some here might be facing that are caused by a "terrible life quality" that could easily be solved if they had more money/better outlook for their future and deep personal desires. That stuff is complex and highly individual!

I, for myself, never thought like that for over 4 decades - neither in my childhood, youth or early adulthood. I Liked to play the game and I had options to do it the way I wanted to do it. After a big failure I can't play the game anymore rather I only have the I option of becoming a "game piece" or CTB and I'd prefer CTB.

Life itself is meaningless - it's that for all living creatures except humans - bc our life is more than just eating and sleeping and reproducing. Our life is based on money without that "fuel" you'd die of hunger in the worst case!

Nature - if we live in our natural habitat - would give everything we need for free like nature does for all other living creatures.

This is the actual problem. We humans created an artificial environment in which we force ourselves to live in but our natural evolution is still in process to adapt to it.
For me, my life isn't miserable; say, I don't have a severe learning disorder, but there isn't much going in my life which is very positive either. The most positive event in my general life is getting a good grade on a test. That's how I would define 'decent': Generally a net positive, but nothing major.

About the artificial environment you bring up: I think the source of many of the world's problems come from this artificial environment. Of course the mental turmoil brought to humanity is one of them, but even more objectively, we can look towards things like global warming. It isn't natural to harness the energy of natural gas, and it certainly isn't natural for Earth to have rising sea levels (unless it's a mass extinction event or something along the lines).
 
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BlessedBeTheFlame

All things are nothing to me
Feb 2, 2024
149
If life were meaningless, there would be no need to distinguish between the quality of dying and living. Life and death both matter because life is not meaningless. The moment you have conscious things, you have meaning. What people mean when they use the word 'meaning' this way is really just a statement about ethics, though. They're saying that ethics is incoherent when they say life has no meaning.

It's more psychologically destabilizing to believe things really matter in a pretty bad world, than it is to just say nothing matters in a pretty bad world. The second one is nice and neat, psychologically. There's no problem to fight with, and that's the appeal. It's not because nihilism makes sense, it's self-defeating if you just scrutinize it.
This entire argument rests on a number of unsafe assumptions, that aren't as obvious as you think they are. My favorite example of such a case is the Jordan curve theorem, where a seemingly obvious statement requires extremely deep thinking to actually prove it. Most of what you say is not self-proving, like you think it is. "If life has meaning, then life and death both matter." Why? "All concious things have meaning." Why? "When life has no meaning, then ethics is incoherent." Why? You mentioned moral nihilism, but this is not as self-obvious as you think it is. "It's more destabilizing to believe in meaning than not." Why? "There's no problem in nihilism." Why? "Nihilism is self-defeating." Why?
I'm not being a smartass, as much as I genuinely want to be right now, but no one can genuinely argue against your point, when they don't know what your point is.
 
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Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
10,077
For me, my life isn't miserable; say, I don't have a severe learning disorder, but there isn't much going in my life which is very positive either. The most positive event in my general life is getting a good grade on a test. That's how I would define 'decent': Generally a net positive, but nothing major.
In this case we're obviously coming from different directions. How old r u? I'm in mid 40's and I school/uni degrees never made me suicidal in the respective age. I don't have a uni degree - I failed but I could get up a decent life according my personal defintion of "decent life".

About the artificial environment you bring up: I think the source of many of the world's problems come from this artificial environment. Of course the mental turmoil brought to humanity is one of them, but even more objectively, we can look towards things like global warming. It isn't natural to harness the energy of natural gas, and it certainly isn't natural for Earth to have rising sea levels (unless it's a mass extinction event or something along the lines).
Throughout history (without humans) there were climate changes on this planet. When we humans are doing it it's just happening faster than it happened in the past. That's actually not a real problem! It's how things go whether an asteroid hits earth (and extincts dinosaurs and prepares the base for mammals (=humans and many other creatures) or in this case we humans extinct ourselves and other creatures - it's just happening - destruction = development in the universe - ultimately the universe itself will die! The universe doesn't care about it! That's it. I'm not worried about climate change and all that all I'm worried about is a good life which depends on the amount of money I have and/or can generate during my life time. This is the only thing I have influence on, nothing else - in the tiny "universe around my person".
 
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CasperDaGhost

CasperDaGhost

Only I Can Bring About The End.
Feb 17, 2024
35
Well if I can throw my hat into the philosophical ring. I believe that purpose and meaning cannot exist, simply because there is nothing beyond existing to exist. We eat, drink, sleep, procreate, only to exist. We yearn for something more, something to achieve with life, when all we can do is make our lives easier, and then languish in that easiness. I see meaning as the human rationalization of life/ the human desire for more, in a world that was never meant to be rationalized and doesn't have more. There isn't some reward or something you get from suffering. There is only hedonism, trying to make your life feel as good as possible for as long as you can.

As for how you live a life you believe meaningless. Well you try to forget, drown yourself in pleasure, alcohol, or drugs so you don't have to remember the futility.
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
In this case we're obviously coming from different directions. How old r u? I'm in mid 40's and I school/uni degrees never made me suicidal in the respective age. I don't have a uni degree - I failed but I could get up a decent life according my personal defintion of "decent life".


Throughout history (without humans) there were climate changes on this planet. When we humans are doing it it's just happening faster than it happened in the past. That's actually not a real problem! It's how things go whether an asteroid hits earth (and extincts dinosaurs and prepares the base for mammals (=humans and many other creatures) or in this case we humans extinct ourselves and other creatures - it's just happening - destruction = development in the universe - ultimately the universe itself will die! The universe doesn't care about it! That's it. I'm not worried about climate change and all that all I'm worried about is a good life which depends on the amount of money I have and/or can generate during my life time. This is the only thing I have influence on, nothing else - in the tiny "universe around my person".
I would prefer not to share my exact age, but I'm in university. Looks like I have more to learn huh...

I see what you mean about the climate part. It is inevitable that the earth is going to disappear, whether humans decide to do it or the sun eats it.
Well if I can throw my hat into the philosophical ring. I believe that purpose and meaning cannot exist, simply because there is nothing beyond existing to exist. We eat, drink, sleep, procreate, only to exist. We yearn for something more, something to achieve with life, when all we can do is make our lives easier, and then languish in that easiness. I see meaning as the human rationalization of life/ the human desire for more, in a world that was never meant to be rationalized and doesn't have more. There isn't some reward or something you get from suffering. There is only hedonism, trying to make your life feel as good as possible for as long as you can.

As for how you live a life you believe meaningless. Well you try to forget, drown yourself in pleasure, alcohol, or drugs so you don't have to remember the futility.
From this, can I suppose if a meaning were to exist, it wouldn't exist in a physical plane. Which makes sense; after all, there is nothing that exists outside of the physical universe, thus meaning and everything else outside of it could never exist.
For me, I always find myself uncomfortable when I indulge in something which brings happiness, but seems "too easy". I might play video games for a couple of hours and feel absolutely miserable afterwards. I wonder if this a natural or conditioned response?
 
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Argo

Specialist
May 19, 2018
355
This entire argument rests on a number of unsafe assumptions, that aren't as obvious as you think they are. My favorite example of such a case is the Jordan curve theorem, where a seemingly obvious statement requires extremely deep thinking to actually prove it. Most of what you say is not self-proving, like you think it is.

...

I'm not being a smartass, as much as I genuinely want to be right now, but no one can genuinely argue against your point, when they don't know what your point is.

Are you sure you've resisted your genuine desire to be a smartass? (Your words.) If someone asks "Why?" a bunch of times in a space where everyone's just making claims about their views, I'm going to assume they're being one-- especially when they just finished telling me about how unsafe my assumptions are when they have zero clue what they are. I'll touch on philosophical topics on this forum but I would never dream of getting into some sort of debate here-- I would need to be a masochist
 
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Praestat_Mori

Mori praestat, quam haec pati!
May 21, 2023
10,077
I would prefer not to share my exact age, but I'm in university. Looks like I have more to learn huh...

I see what you mean about the climate part. It is inevitable that the earth is going to disappear, whether humans decide to do it or the sun eats it.
Yeah that's what I'm saying! An "asteroid impact" is almost certain in the future - and we won't be able to do anything against it - long before the sun becomes a red giant.
 
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Alexander Neumann

Alexander Neumann

I love sleeping
Mar 1, 2024
16
Yeah that's what I'm saying! An "asteroid impact" is almost certain in the future - and we won't be able to do anything against it - long before the sun becomes a red giant.
I was under the impression they were really unlikely! Interesting to know I could be dying soon... not like I would enjoy living after everything is gone.
 
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BlessedBeTheFlame

All things are nothing to me
Feb 2, 2024
149
Are you sure you've resisted your genuine desire to be a smartass? (Your words.) If someone asks "Why?" a bunch of times in a space where everyone's just making claims about their views, I'm going to assume they're being one-- especially when they just finished telling me about how unsafe my assumptions are when they have zero clue what they are. I'll touch on philosophical topics on this forum but I would never dream of getting into some sort of debate here-- I would need to be a masochist
If someone assumes things out of nowhere, that seem very strange, it's second-nature to question these. I merely wished to point out which points exactly I took issue with. When I say your assumptions are unsafe, I was referring to the fact you haven't properly backed them up in my opinion. Knowledge is justified true belief, which is justified on true premises. Even if you justify your belief and it was true, then your justification may be flawed, that is the Gettier problem. Since many of your claims lack a clear-cut justification, I called them unsafe.

"If life has meaning, then life and death both matter."
This makes sense, if you're looking at it from a eurocentric position. Theravada buddhism, unlike Mahayana buddhism, explicitly rejects anything pertaining to life and teaches that life is in essence a vehicle towards annihiliation in nirvana. While Mahayana buddhism places its emphasis on the totality of humanity reaching nirvana, Theravada buddhism is explicit in saying that each person should find it individually. Once you reach actual enlightenment, you might as well therefore die. Similarly, one may argue that it is death that doesn't matter in the case of hinduism, since one is reborn dependent on ones life alone.
"All concious things have meaning."
This is circular logic. You use the answer as an argument supporting your answer.
"Life having no meaning makes ethics incoherent."
Most people saying this presume some prototypical form of utilitarianism, whereby a temporary life of pain or joy becomes nil in comparison to infinity. But utilitarianism is not the only form of ethics or even of consequentialist ethics. If I presume my own freedom through the lack of meaning of life and if I discount a solipsist universe, then taking this freedom from others would be wrong, making kidnapping or murder wrong. Even if you disagree, this is coherent logic. Taoism outright argues for moral nihilism, since people are naturally going to follow a path of good, a philosophy I somewhat agree with from anthropological and biological research.
"It is more morally destabilizing to believe in something than in nothing."
Anomic suicide is the case, where a lack of meaning causes a persons suicide. Fatalistic is the opposite. There aren't any studies on how many people belong to which subtype, but it proves that a lack of meaning can be just as destabilizing as an overbearing meaning. The existence of cults as a means of providing social structures and arbitrary meanings also throw in a monkeywrench. It also misses the point and merely implies that anyone agreeing with you must be some sort of hippie or bum, which is just a lazy ad hominem.
"Nihilists have no problems to fight with."
A lack of meaning doesn't imply a lack of problems. I have depersonalization symptoms, which causes me to feel a lack of meaning or purpose in anything I do. It's not that I have no problems in my life, but that I have no means to fend off those problems. It's utterly debilitating to be powerless against it all. Again, if a lack of meaning was a savior, cults would not try to recruit those, who don't see a meaning in their lives.
"Nihilism is self-defeating, if you scrutinize it."
If I go off of your arguments, then you only said "Nihilism is false, because it is false" and "Nihilists are lazy bums.". The term self-defeating would imply there to be a contradiction within the idea of nihilism, but it simply states a possible case of the universe. I don't see how a universe devoid of an objective meaning would be contradictory. So excuse me if I come off as rude, but I do find this to be lazy reasoning. When I stated my case, I tried to keep it most to factual statements pertaining to the philosophy in question. I further find your point self-defeating, since you accuse nihilists of conflating ethics with meaning, yet you yourself conflate the two. You claim that there must be meaning, since you see ethics as unable to function otherwise. This is literally a conflation of the two.
 
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Linda

Linda

Member
Jul 30, 2020
1,687
In my case it's fairly easy, because I'm not prone to depression. Athough I think that life overall is meaningless, that doesn't prevent me from having short-term goals that make it worth getting up in the morning. For the moment, those short term goals mean that life has more plusses than minuses, so I stay. If my husband dies before me, I expect that to change, and then I wil ctb.
 
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AllAlone

Member
Oct 4, 2023
55
Life is truly meaningless and my only goal is to kill myself. Everything I do I do with the intention of eventually killing myself. My only future plan is to kill myself. I don't do anything to try and improve my life since I know I am going to kill myself. Our lives have no meaning and the only thing that matters is if you are happy in the moment. If your not happy then you might as well kill yourself, nobody will care and your life doesn't matter. The world will continue on without you just fine.
 
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Euthanza

Euthanza

Self Righteous Suicide
Jun 9, 2022
1,431
I wanted to travel the world and made it up to US and Western Europe. Now at this age I get exhausted I don't think I want or able to do again to the rest of the world, it's enough (I live in SEA) that's all until my time comes for me.

Nihilism is where science and philosophy meet.
—Mitchell Heisman
 
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DeIetedUser4739

Guest
Apr 21, 2024
428
When I realized it was all pointless it's like my soul / spirit died and im just existing now. I keep trying to make sense of it but always come to the conclusion death is the only way out of this suffering.
 
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Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
Aug 20, 2019
528
My personal take always was that if I see no purpose in the universe it doesn't mean there is no purpose to life in the universe, but that I failed at finding one.
I believe that life justifies itself, it is its own purpose. We live in such a magnificent, beautiful world, so many people are just blind to the beauty there is. If a tree falls over in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Should life die out there is no one listening to the universe, so absent of anyone percieving it the world might aswell not exist at all.
The preservation of life is the preservation of reality, we should do it to honor everything that all the beings before us suffered through to bring us here and give us what we have, and we should see that future generations are able to experience this world and fully see it for how beautiful it is.
From the first self-replicating molecules in the oceans of primordial earth to whatever comes millions of years after us, we are part of an unbroken chain of life.
 
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ijustwishtodie

ijustwishtodie

death will be my ultimate bliss
Oct 29, 2023
3,639
I don't live... at least not voluntarily. I'm only alive because the consequences of a failed suicide attempt is too much for me. Everyday is pure misery and agony for me
 
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