Discussion (Hopefully) Helpful incel discussion

[weatherforecast]

Preface -
So, I have seen some posts about misogyny and incels, and I want to try creating an actual constructive thread. This post is supposed to target people who WANT to help incels and reduce misogyny, written by an incel (maybe not as misogynistic as the rest?). If you do not want to help them, I respect that. I agree that your hatred is justified. I just want to say: PLEASE at least put a TW or spoiler tags to avoid propogating hostility if you want to debate my viewpoint.

Spoiler: Main premise

I wrote this post with the premise that emotional, negative reactions do not help. For example: A parent hitting a child (Yes, this is a terrible analogy because responses against the manosphere are usually justified, but bear with me). The parent does not resort to this after researching the best punishment strategy. For the most part, parents hit their child because they are annoyed or angry. This does not help the child EVEN IF the parent is jusfitied / the response makes sense.

Spoiler: My experience & why it matters (May be vent esque, but I think it is useful)

Personally, I grew up having terrible experiences with women. I am ugly and short, and people (not exclusively women, but nonetheless... mostly women) have felt the need to comment about it even with normal context, such as walking in the halls at school. I won't go too deep into this, as it is just an example, but some women have laughed to my face (sort of a pun haha) before even when I did not say a word to them. I agree that this should not fuel misogyny. It is societal, it has to do with men and women; I agree that lookism applies to both genders. However, think of the general response to saying any of this. "It's your personality." "Work on yourself, hit the gym." "Your vibe was probably just felt off, work on body language." Relating this to my experience: Sometimes, it is just personality! The problem is, this general response invalidates anyone who has actually had experiences such as mine. You can suggest those ideas alongside validating their response. I feel that this is why men fall into the void known as the manosphere. They just want someone to validate their life experience, because maybe they HAVE just met shallow women. I also find that people are triggered at the slightest hint of misogyny (or misandry too!). You have bad experiences with women / men, and say that you hate them in ONE POST and even clarify that you don't actually believe all of they are trash? You are an incel now, and I am blocking you!! It is because of your personality and outlook (even though this is their only post about it?). So, when they find a community (manosphere / incels) that actually validates and tries to explain their experience in a way that makes sense to them, of course they will conform. I would also like to talk about young men. It is even more probable that they have bad experiences unrelated to their personality; a lot of young people do stupid shit, a lot of young people are shallow which gives rise to bullying, etc. And they are more malleable, they want to fit in, they turn to incels who happen to be misogynstic because that is the only support, and conform to their ideas. So: if you want to help incels and lessen misogyny, please don't react in this fashion. While I understand that it is triggering, if you have the emotional capacity to take a second and calm down, please do so. Obviously, if the person reminds you of something traumatic, it is not your obligation to help them, and any response is justified. I am just saying that, to lessen misogyny, positive responses are better. And, don't expect any immediate change in their attitude. The purpose is to plant a seed of doubt in their mind that incel ideology may be wrong.

Spoiler: Strategies (Basically, the last sentence of the prev section) -

This is what I hope the discussion is about. I hope some of this, or any suggestions in the replies will help you respond in an empathetic fashion.

I think any strategies are related to mindset and relaxation techniques.
Right now, I don't have time to write a lot, so I'll just propose one for now.

Mindsets:
It is better (not that you HAVE to, again, just a suggestion) to view any incel as a result of their experience, rather than vice versa. What I mean is, don't assume that their personality was always terrible, and that it is the only reason they failed with women. Some people fall into this ideology because of their experiences with genuinely shallow people, and not due to their personality AT FIRST. This is a better mindset to adopt because it is meant to guide your general response. You are supporting the incels that can be helped, rather than responding negatively to everyone.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I've always said that being an incel is more of a mindset thing than an entirely physical phenomenon. Some people just got the sauce and others don't.

Unfortunately mindset can be just as difficult to overcome. Imagine getting people to actually change their mind, especially over the internet. This includes me too. Even though I'm an incel who's never really consumed any manosphere content and I'm fully aware that my mindset is toxic and damaging to myself, for some reason that hasn't helped me change in the slightest. I've had years to ponder on what exactly will be enough to snap me out of this situation and it's clear that the only thing that even comes close to having a small chance of helping me (like maybe 55%) is if someone just decided to give me a chance as a romantic partner while I'm at my worst who's good enough to make me want to become the best version of myself that isn't a cringe incel. Unfortunately I'm also aware that no human should be expected to do this for me so I'm just stuck waiting for someone to take this stupid risk.

This is why I believe it's better for me to be dead because many incels are in even worse spots than me and I fully sympathize with them. I believe we should simply be culled from the population before it's too late in order to minimize the harm we can do. What harm you may ask? Even if I'm not openly misogynist, I learned in college that simply by existing as a cisgendered heterosexual male, my very existence is a threat to all women thus it would be better if I were simply gone.

 

[damyon]

(I don't quite understand: am I supposed to give incels advice? or people who bash the incels for the sake of doing it? In the case of the former...)

What is your end goal?
Do you want to reduce hostility towards incels in general?
I don't think that is possible completely. People who don't want to buy a product will never buy it.

People who only value looks will always exist, no matter what.
Do you need to engage with them (whatever that means)?
They value looks, so unless you are more beautiful than them, you will never win. Why not switch your playing field to one where you can outperform them?


~~~
My advice to you.
Focus on your looks. When you achieve 80% of the results, gradually shift your focus towards other stuff (e.g., studying, working, building a business).
In terms of social life, try to connect with people who accept you for who you are. Wasting time on people who don't like you is not productive.

Why you need to focus on your looks and not only on your personality: I experienced firsthand that the majority of people (even those who are not fixated solely on looks) started treating me better.
More specific advice on looks: while you cannot change your height, you can alter your facial appearance to a reasonable extent (this also includes your hair: haircut, styling, etc.).

In case you need an expiring example:

When it comes to defying the odds of finding a girlfriend, I have a friend from high school who is around 150cm tall, Asian (I sound racist here. It is just statistics: asian males statistically have it harder), works as a barber (not your six-figure salary). Despite these factors, he has a loving and caring girlfriend (Slavic) who is objectively attractive, and they have been in a relationship for 5+ years.

You can also read my recent post, which includes advice regarding what you could do in your situation:

Ugly men

they say that girls don’t judge men on the appearance. I think this is not true a ugly men cannot get a girlfriend. These online dating only makes things worse. If your ugly then you don’t get any contacts. I don’t no if my life is beter with a gf sometimes I think it will sometimes I think it...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[weatherforecast]

(I don't quite understand: am I supposed to give incels advice? or people who bash the incels for the sake of doing it? In the case of the former...)

What is your end goal?
Do you want to reduce hostility towards incels in general?
I don't think that is possible completely. People who don't want to buy a product will never buy it.

People who only value looks will always exist, no matter what.
Do you need to engage with them (whatever that means)?
They value looks, so unless you are more beautiful than them, you will never win. Why not switch your playing field to one where you can outperform them?


~~~
My advice to you.
Focus on your looks. When you achieve 80% of the results, gradually shift your focus towards other stuff (e.g., studying, working, building a business).
In terms of social life, try to connect with people who accept you for who you are. Wasting time on people who don't like you is not productive.

Why you need to focus on your looks and not only on your personality: I experienced firsthand that the majority of people (even those who are not fixated solely on looks) started treating me better.
More specific advice on looks: while you cannot change your height, you can alter your facial appearance to a reasonable extent (this also includes your hair: haircut, styling, etc.).

In case you need an expiring example:


You can also read my recent post, which includes advice regarding what you could do in your situation:

Ugly men

they say that girls don’t judge men on the appearance. I think this is not true a ugly men cannot get a girlfriend. These online dating only makes things worse. If your ugly then you don’t get any contacts. I don’t no if my life is beter with a gf sometimes I think it will sometimes I think it...

sanctioned-suicide.net

I just wanted to create a discussion for strategies / responses to them (The strategies section).

The rest of the post sort of relates, but it is to provide a different perspective on what makes a response empathetic. Even logical replies may be met with hostility because of the bad rep. For example:
Someone tells you to work on personality -> they end up being dismissive and telling you that your personality is the only reason why
Then, when someone says the same thing, you are quick to assume it will go down the same path... even though, this person may acknowledge lookism unlike the last.

Thank you for your advice. I'll try to read the post and see if it helps me.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think it's always tricky because it generally turns into a competition about who has it worse. So, even if we are able to put the blame on society in general- where it belongs, (we learn to expect things of the other sex via that and in both cases, those expectations are unreasonable) beginning any conversation looking for support with an: 'it's all right for you' attitude tends to put people's backs up.

I think we all ought to realise that before we even begin. I have my own biases towards men because of my own experience as a women. The same as they do from their own perspective. It can be tricky to ever really agree when we feel fundamentally that the other person is incorrect!

So- a typical incel criticism tends to be about pretty privelage. A typical feminist criticism tends to be that men tend to earn more than women. In both cases though- neither is a given attribute. Women need to have at least some good inherited features to be considered pretty and they have to comply with a lot of uncomfortable standards. Men need good genes to have the intelligence and commitment and confidence to get a well paid job.

Both sexes are very restricted by their genes and circumstances. I just wish we could realise that both genders, all genders, all people, non binary or whatever struggle with certain things because of how our societies teach us to act.

Plus, natural attraction I suppose. Men will argue that they naturally find young, fit women more attractive because it's a sign of fertility. Women may argue they naturally find tall, strong and wealthy men attractive because they can better protect them.

I think there's a resentment from both sides if we happen to be a person that doesn't fall into the desirable category but I think we both need to recognise it's a double standard when we start criticizing why the other gender won't accept us as we are. That tends to come through strongly I find in incel threads when they talk about getting worried they're going to have to 'settle' for someone. So- an inferior woman basically.

That all said, relationships are a mystery to me to be honest. I probably did feel resentment at being a femcel at one point. I definitely felt like I didn't comply with the beauty requirements and didn't particularly want to. Feminine attire/ makeup/ high heels are all really uncomfortable and impractical in my opinion/ experience.

Now though, it's partly through choice for me. That makes me feel better to some extent. Maybe that could actually help incels. Like- do you actually want to comply with all those male standards in order to attract someone? Will a woman who's obsessed with looks and money be that genuine anyway? I guess I've always hoped for the 'right one,' those things shouldn't be a priority anyway and, I'd rather not 'settle' for something shallow. Not to say people who go for those things are shallow but I guess they could be.

 

[damyon]

The rest of the post sort of relates, but it is to provide a different perspective on what makes a response empathetic. Even logical replies may be met with hostility because of the bad rep. For example:
Someone tells you to work on personality -> they end up being dismissive and telling you that your personality is the only reason why
Then, when someone says the same thing, you are quick to assume it will go down the same path... even though, this person may acknowledge lookism unlike the last.

You understand it, at least.

You do not necessarily have to follow full advice; pick only the parts that you can find helpful in your case.
For example, if someone tells you to work on your personality, clarify what they mean by it and do not treat it as rigid advice. Stay open-minded. Even if the person tells you your looks do not matter, try to see it for yourself - evaluate whether their advice works for you.

Listen to advice -> Evaluate whether it works for you -> If it works, it works.
Rinse and repeat.

~~~

Honestly, you got it. Take care.

 

[weatherforecast]

I think I was kind of unclear on what I meant, so to clarify:
It isn't a post meant to necessarily convince people who bash incels. It is a response to the specific pattern I see, which is:
Someone (who is willing to help, empathetic) clicks on an incel post. They understand the struggle of the poster, and they reply with something that seems logical & understanding. They are met with hostility, and form a negative opinion of incels.
It sounds like they tried to help, but the incel did not want it, right? That may be true, but

However, think of the general response to saying any of this. "It's your personality." "Work on yourself, hit the gym." "Your vibe was probably just felt off, work on body language." Relating this to my experience: Sometimes, it is just personality! The problem is, this general response invalidates anyone who has actually had experiences such as mine.

It depends on what they say.

Even logical replies may be met with hostility because of the bad rep. For example:
Someone tells you to work on personality -> they end up being dismissive and telling you that your personality is the only reason why
Then, when someone says the same thing, you are quick to assume it will go down the same path... even though, this person may acknowledge lookism unlike the last.

The intention of this discussion / the strategy section is supposed to help these people formulate a response that will not be met with hostility. I wrote this from the perspective of an incel. In my experience, it isn't that incels are adverse to logical discussion; some just have bad experiences with specific replies… such as talking about personality, because people have dismissed them under that guise.

Which is why I was hoping someone would reply with advice on responses or what you should keep in mind when talking to an incel (such as the mindset I mentioned)

 

[weatherforecast]

we both need to recognise it's a double standard when we start criticizing why the other gender won't accept us as we are. That tends to come through strongly I find in incel threads when they talk about getting worried they're going to have to 'settle' for someone. So- an inferior woman basically.

I don't disagree with anything & I think it aligns with what I originally said
i.e.

Obviously, if the person reminds you of something traumatic, it is not your obligation to help them, and any response is justified. I am just saying that, to lessen misogyny, positive responses are better.

(positive responses as in validating their experience BEFORE you know their opinion… if they say something like that, do whatever you want)

 

[Aplev]

I know it's a delicate topic and maybe it was better to leave it here? But I still want to add a few things.

I know some people here have made posts talking pretty bad about incels and I would have loved to reply right then and there because I'll say it I felt offended but I think this is a wiser place to respond in, since in other posts I really feel a lot of hatred and like saying anything is totally pointless because people are focused on 'not-listening' mode (I read something about that some time ago... something to do with the amygdala, so they are literally and physically not listening). Sadly, it's not true that all throughout the site you can find peace and kindness. So that said, I want to express myself further here.

Yes, not all women are the same, yes, not all men are the same, but gender expectations are a thing. And yes, they are a thing for both genders. But like other people have said here, at some point it turns into a competition of who has it worse. I don't want to get there. My point is, not all men are the same, not all women are the same, but we are all still humans and we still have expectations from life. So in the same way that we are being called toxic for expecting things from women, women could be called toxic for expecting men not to be angry about the situation and also for expecting them to have certain personality traits. Basically, if I am toxic, you are too. I can't be 100% sure about others but personally what disgusts me the most is how a lot of women don't even try to understand. Like, if you don't want to go get me a partner just don't, I don't think it'd work anyway (not because there's something 'wrong' with my personality, but rather because while not all women are the same, biology and gender expectations are still a thing and I'd be surprised to find a woman who doesn't expect certain traits in myself), but at least stop insulting like you know what is like and go on with your life. While it's not a solution to the problem, at least there's less harm done.

 

[1MiserableGuy]

Just try being on the internet less

 

[innominesatanas44]

Just try being on the internet less

99% of problems for people in the first world could be fixed with this