NSFW Hear me out!

[FoxSauce]

Ilabled this in NSFW just in case.

First off, I'm not sure how this will come across, and if it rubs anyone the wrong way, I sincerely apologize that's not my intention. I believe everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and the last thing I want is to start an argument or stir up negativity around a sensitive topic.


I'll admit, I'm nervous even writing this.


For the past few weeks, I've been quietly reading through a forum for incels. As a girl, I found some of the content extremely offensive misogynistic, racist, and even violent at times. No, I don't believe people deserve sex just beacuse . A lot of it was disturbing, and it was hard to read. There's a lot of anger directed at women, blaming them and society for their personal struggles.


And still… some posts made me wonder: how does someone end up holding that much anger toward an entire gender?


Do I hate them? Honestly, no. I don't excuse what they say, but I think a lot of them are just deeply hurt maybe by women, maybe by other things. Yes, some women can be mean, shallow, or even cruel. But that's true for people in general not just women, not just men.

I won't lie either I make geralizations too.

No gender is entirely good or bad. Not all men are toxic, and not all women are manipulative or heartless. And sure, some individuals regardless of gender do deserve consequences for harmful actions, especially in serious cases like SA or other crimes. But blaming an entire gender for personal pain? That doesn't feel like the right path to healing or understanding.


I believe everyone deserves respect, regardless of gender. And of course, things like mental illness, low self-esteem, trauma, and depression can play a role in how people act and think (though I'm no expert, so what the hell do I know ).


I know this post won't change the world or fix anything. But I guess what I'm saying is: maybe everyone deserves at least a second chance. Maybe more compassion and less generalization would go a long way.

---

 

[Darkover]

to be wired for something then being denied it like needing food to eat
nature is a repressive machine
humans, are just machines wired to keep the cycle going, no matter the cost to individual well-being.
that's why i want extinction to end this cycle of misery inflicted by everything alive here

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Some people get extremely resentful after rejection or even perceived rejection. People with strong senses of entitlement. Now that internet echo chambers are a thing, these resentful men radicalize each other.

I think a lot of them aren't unhappy because they can't find dates. They're unhappy, period. Women are just what they choose to blame, because they're misogynists.

I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[Pluto]

 

[bankai]

It's not just the hate towards women but extreme racism and offensive language as well on those sites.very loose moderation over there.


watch Elliott Rodgers manifesto video that he made a day before his shootings to know what a true incel is.


There's always going to be a subset of people like that and it's never going to change.

These threads usually get pretty popular and then eventually locked,let's see

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

I can't ever empathize/sympathize with incels. Small preface, I am a trans woman which means that my sex is male, while my gender is woman (bear with me here, this wording is specific). Before transitioning, I held a lot of what some would call "misogynist" beliefs. I didn't hate females, I just understood that because of their sex, they would enjoy different opportunities that I as a male would never have. What a lot of incels fail to understand is that this goes both ways. Males enjoy an IMMENSE amount of privilege from the sole fact of their biology.

Is there downsides to being a male? Of course, but incels often act as if there is no downside to being female when by that same biological coin, females have challenges that males will usually never have to worry about. Both sexes (I distinguish this from gender) have their pros and cons, but in my opinion, especially post-transition, females often will have it harder in life due to lacking the sheer power that males often automatically have. There is a world of difference between your main challenge in life being "manning up" vs worrying about the males you keep around you trying to violate you the second they get the chance.

This is not to say that no male will face the challenge of a female, and vice versa, but trends and averages are what they are, and until we're honest about them, nobody will have a truly clear picture of the landscape before them. Incels often distort what they see directly in front of them, and then horse-blind themselves into thinking that's all there is to see. It's easy to make those weaker than you your enemy when you lack the conviction to pull your head out of your ass and think that the smell is because of them. If there's anybody incels should hate, it's themselves.

Now, would I want to try to lift these people up and better their conditions? Sure, if they're willing to actually fucking try, which often comes up as the primary issue they have. Part of being an incel is a massive sense of entitlement, that if it were missing, they frankly wouldn't even be incels because they would just move on from whatever is bothering them and find a better way. It's in the very name "incel" (which by the way is a very stupid term because celibacy is by definition voluntary, so you can not involuntarily be celibate). The only reason they took on the moniker is because "boo hoo, I can't have sex". Well, a fuck ton of other people also can't but most of them don't make it everybody else's problem. I understand that the desire for sex is a biological imperative hardwired into us because of evolution, but quite frankly get the fuck over it.

You're not going to die because you didn't bust a load with a female. It sucks, but dear fucking lord, it's not that serious. If that is all you think about in life, it speaks volumes to how empty the rest of your existence is. I've felt the pain. I know it well, but I did not go around crying "woe is me" because of my skill issue. I locked in, cleaned my shit up, bettered my mind, my body, and my spirit, and still didn't even have sex with a female after all of that. I still felt better though. I felt awesome because I was able to enjoy what I accomplished for the little bit it kept the suicidality away.

I will admit, I have regressed recently and lost a fair bit of my gains, but even then I've never felt the need to hate the opposite sex. Am I envious of them? Yes, absolutely, but not for the same reasons as incels. They want to hate females, I want to be a female, we are not the same. I did however manage to snag a BF in the process, which is something that a lot of females struggle to do, so what a bittersweet irony that turned out to be, eh?

 

[DivineSpark]

It's not just the hate towards women but extreme racism and offensive language as well on those sites.very loose moderation over there.


watch Elliott Rodgers manifesto video that he made a day before his shootings to know what a true incel is.


There's always going to be a subset of people like that and it's never going to change.

These threads usually get pretty popular and then eventually locked,let's see

Elliot Rodger was rich kid. If he wanted sex so much, he could have bought prostitute.

 

[nobeertonight]

Ilabled this in NSFW just in case.

First off, I'm not sure how this will come across, and if it rubs anyone the wrong way, I sincerely apologize that's not my intention. I believe everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and the last thing I want is to start an argument or stir up negativity around a sensitive topic.


I'll admit, I'm nervous even writing this.


For the past few weeks, I've been quietly reading through a forum for incels. As a girl, I found some of the content extremely offensive misogynistic, racist, and even violent at times. No, I don't believe people deserve sex just beacuse . A lot of it was disturbing, and it was hard to read. There's a lot of anger directed at women, blaming them and society for their personal struggles.


And still… some posts made me wonder: how does someone end up holding that much anger toward an entire gender?


Do I hate them? Honestly, no. I don't excuse what they say, but I think a lot of them are just deeply hurt maybe by women, maybe by other things. Yes, some women can be mean, shallow, or even cruel. But that's true for people in general not just women, not just men.

I won't lie either I make geralizations too.

No gender is entirely good or bad. Not all men are toxic, and not all women are manipulative or heartless. And sure, some individuals regardless of gender do deserve consequences for harmful actions, especially in serious cases like SA or other crimes. But blaming an entire gender for personal pain? That doesn't feel like the right path to healing or understanding.


I believe everyone deserves respect, regardless of gender. And of course, things like mental illness, low self-esteem, trauma, and depression can play a role in how people act and think (though I'm no expert, so what the hell do I know ).


I know this post won't change the world or fix anything. But I guess what I'm saying is: maybe everyone deserves at least a second chance. Maybe more compassion and less generalization would go a long way.

---

It's the bitterness and resentfulness that makes you lash out indiscriminately, most peopl like this tend to adopt extremist political views and generally have a very cynical world view. I don't think they should be demonized, at the end they are hurt, traumatized, isolated and often abused or bullied people, and sometimes I think we can safely blame the society we live in for creating such a phenomenon, let's be real, more and more people tend to adopt this view of the world, I think it has to do with how we as a society are becoming more and more materialistic and less philosophical/spiritual in a sense, less empathetic and connected. One might even blame this on the loss of certain values that made society more empathetic.

 

[Apathy79]

It's the same as any generalised hate. The rationalisations are largely irrelevant. There are also a disturbing amount of hating men posts here on the other side which are equally irrational. I can guarantee if you hate an entire gender, race, all people on the other political wing to yours, all people with different spiritual beliefs to yours, etc., (there are dead set a million of these but those are the 4 that seem most common to me off the top of my head), the problem is with you and not with what you hate.

 

[bankai]

Elliot Rodger was rich kid. If he wanted sex so much, he could have bought prostitute.

He was going to college at the time and wanted all the girls there to flock to him . it was a sense of entitlement.didn't have much to do with actual sex.

He wanted to be adored and worshipped by his peers,mainly women though.

 

[The Actual Devil]

Best of luck with this thread, FoxSauce. And I wouldn't spend too much time in those forums, as there isn't much more to learn beyond what you've seen already. There's no great mystery, no secret or surprise that will fall into place next. You can learn more about loneliness and longing from poets, minus the hate speech.

My empathy batteries don't seem to hold a charge around incels, at least not the ones who would refuse any chance to be guided out of their pit. It's like what you said, though, about second chances: the ones who want one are welcome to it. But I wouldn't spend time trying to evangelize them. Not that it isn't noble; it would simply drive me mad.

I know firsthand how the mind of a bigot works on account of the way my parents tried to raise me. There is nothing more selfish and idiotic than bigotry.

A bullet is far healthier for someone's mind than bigotry.
​

He was going to college at the time and wanted all the girls there to flock to him . it was a sense of entitlement.didn't have much to do with actual sex.

Sounds like he would have been a future politician if college had gone the way he expected it to.

It's in the very name "incel" (which by the way is a very stupid term because celibacy is by definition voluntary, so you can not involuntarily be celibate).

I miss when they called themselves KHHVs. Guess it made them seem too human.

 

[Skallagrim]

And still… some posts made me wonder: how does someone end up holding that much anger toward an entire gender?

---

They're suffering, they're lonely, they're isolated.

That, in and of itself, is nothing new. I'm pretty sure a lot of older guys here will say that lonely men feeling depressed isn't a modern invention.

But now these guys are used as a pinata in the culture war - everything is their fault. Not just their loneliness, not just their depression, but everything from slavery to oppression of women in the 17th century.

They see other demographics being given support, sympathy, and compassion, but for them and their suffering it's "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Man up! And show your feelings more! And also don't cry about this! And also don't be afraid to cry!"

It's a real mess and it's having dire consequences for the mental health of a lot of young men, who then gravitate to those places where they might find, at the very least, a voice who will listen to them, and talk back to them with a modicum of understanding.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd say you are more generous than me. I do try to be generous and understanding but, I tend to find myself getting argumentative and triggered reading the more hateful type incel threads. I try to avoid them for that reason. There was one the other day about how a guy enjoyed watching illegal porn and women being hurt and raped.

I agree that free speech is important. It's good to have somewhere we can be honest and vent. It's important for people to be honest too. And obviously, violent thoughts aren't the same as violent actions although- illegal porn isn't victimless.

I also join you in wondering what happened to them to make them so aggressive and hateful. I have no doubt there are some terrible women out there. (Again though- how did those women become so terrible in the first place? Was it their fault either?)

It's tricky though because I also somewhat stand by: 'A dog that bites is a dog that bites.' On the one hand, we should be trying to understand how people become resentful to the point of becoming aggressive. If there are genuine wrongs, we ought to try to right them. On the other though, people need to protect themselves.

Coming from a female perspective, I have my own bias. It struck me though- the broad differences between the genders. A while back, a member said he felt very hurt by an 'I hate men' thread. On the one hand, he accepted he was an individual susceptible to being triggered by this type of talk. Many women were saying how they didn't trust men or, how they felt afraid of them. I can understand this can be upsetting to someone who struggles approaching women but, wanting to. Still, it's no real wonder when there are guys out there who openly say they enjoy watching violence against women. It's also unfair to deny women their voice in expressing fears around domestic violence etc. That's another form of oppresion. It all just reminded me of that Margaret Atwood quote:

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them"

I do tend to agree with you that, when it becomes aggressive, it does suggest a level of entitlement. I probably did identify as a femcel when I was young (although I didn't know the term.) I realised that I didn't fit any of the attractive female stereotypes. That I didn't even want to. I also held a cynicism/ resentment that men went for such obvious and shallow attributes (not all men.) I don't think I exactly felt angry towards them though. More like the beautiful people were part of some exclusive club I would never get to join. I hated society and biology for making certain attributes so important but I think we're pretty much all victims in falling for that.

I tend to agree that the agression side of it suggests that they have been personally wronged by individual women (some will have been of course.) If it's simply a case that they won't sleep with them or date them though- that's surely a demand that they are owed that. No one is owed that! No one is entitled to 'possess' another person. That would totally obliterate free will. So, I suppose some inceldom is a feminism issue- we're not docile, tame objects that owe men anything. We're people who make decisions- just the same way they do. Plus, I doubt it's always their (supposedly lack of) looks, height or money that put women off. It could just as well be their underlying entitlement and resentment towards women.

I want to add here that, not all incels are aggressive and, I absolutely do have time for men or women who are reasonable, respectful but lonely. Hatred/ frustration towards inequality in society is also understandable- so long as it doesn't become personal. Obviously, where we have been personally wronged, venting is understandable too.

It's sometimes hard to judge where someone is coming from when we don't know their background. I'm sure it can be almost inevitable some men and women end up the way they do- given their experiences. Personally though, there are some types of threads I just try to avoid now. I tend to find discussions with either the more militant incels or pro-lifers turn ugly rather fast.

 

[Seered Doom]

Coming from a trans male perspective, hate how incels make things so black and white. All or nothing. They also are exclusionary by design to make an echo chamber and maximum isolation, which in turn, makes it harder for them to ebb out of such a toxic environment. There is no in between. Same with femcels. Both groups are hate filled and none are able to actually look pass their own close minded views to see things from another perspective.

 

[Apathy79]

I've said my rant about hating generalised groups already but I want to address the incel thing directly and relate an experience from today. I'll preface this by saying I'm not involved in any of these communities and have only really read reports of them from others, so correct me if I'm wrong on the specifics, but I think huge parts of the ideology comes from dating sites, where the experience of virtually all men seems to be if you don't have looks, fame or money, nothing else matters. No-one is ever going to match with you unless they're a scammer or there's something severely wrong with them. So you can't date that way, and it is entirely because you don't look good enough or have obvious wealth or fame to compensate.

I don't have any personal experience with dating sites, but I've never heard pushback on that from anyone, women or men, so I assume it is probably true. I also know a few guys who are good looking that use those sites, and some of them have dates multiple times a day, it becomes their whole life. They get everyone on the site and have the problem of choosing, and the rest get nothing. 1 match for every 200 swipes. And that breeds resentment. So they find these communities that explain these discrepancies in a way that makes them feel better about themselves by blaming the women instead. And over time it festers and gets reinforced, because there is truth to what they're saying in that context.

But I really don't think it applies the same outside of dating sites. All of my friends and family are married, almost without exception. A huge number of the men in that group are not good looking. At this point there's probably almost an even distribution between people who met their wives online vs irl. I don't know of a single one who did it through a dating site. The people who met online did it through interest groups, DMing friends of friends, various forums and chat groups, etc. They get to know each other first and bond relatively deeply about shared interests. Then meet. And you know what? It frequently works. And it works for men who would never have matched with that same woman on any dating site.

Then there's the irl way of meeting. That's how I met my ex-fiance when I was younger. Walking the dog. In the same place every day. Where she also walked hers. The dogs liked to play with each other. So we got used to talking to each other. And over time we got to know each other well. And it worked. Would she have matched me on a dating site? Not a hope in hades! But it can still happen.

Which brings me to today. I've been doing gym classes for a while. But I never really talk to anyone in them. Today I just decided it was time for that to stop. So I got to class early. And introduced myself to the lady I was set up next to. Said I've probably seen her 100 times but never said hello so thought I better stop being a stranger. She introduced herself back. We started talking about why we do the class, which were slightly different. Then the class started and not much was said during but I did catch the odd smile and reciprocated. At the end she said it was nice to finally meet me. I asked what she was up to now and she said she's going to go for a walk on the beach and then head home for dinner. I asked if she minds if I tag along for a bit, I'm meeting a friend on the way (I wasn't, my bad). She said sure. So we got to know each other a little more before I excused myself to "meet my friend". Now I have no idea if this will turn into anything, I don't even know if she is single yet, but here's the thing - I'm not good looking, at all, I very rarely speak to people (I've been a hermit for over a decade), I have very little money and I'm certainly not famous. This is not a woman who would match me on a dating site. No chance. And yet look what happens with a tiny bit of effort to break out of my comfort zone. I think she was shocked a normal guy was game to talk to her like a normal person - it's suddenly a rare thing.

I just think incels need to get off dating sites where their beliefs will likely be reinforced and try other options. But going in with the belief that they're unlikable because of their appearance will probably sabotage that too (and any woman hating stuff definitely will).