Venting Having children is selfish

[sserafim]

Having children is inherently selfish.

 

[GroundControl]

I concur. It's not like the decision is made for the child. It's made because the parents (if we are talking about a generic scenario) want the kid. So yeah, selfish.

My mom literally had kids to babytrap the various men she has been with. And we are all fucked up, with like 3 different dads between the five of us.

 

[kermudgeon]

I follow a childless by choice person on insta and people will come at them with the dumbest fucking arguments, like "who's going to take care of you when you die?" As if that's a good reason to force someone into this world.

I'm so so glad that me and my exes never decided to (or fluked into) having kids. I used to want them and I had no good reason, I'm so lucky it never worked out!

 

[Downdraft]

Having children is inherently selfish.

Not trying to disagree, but I'd like to see how you arrived at that conclusion. This feels low effort imo.

"who's going to take care of you when you die?"

People like this ironically are who OP refers to. Most countries without good healthcare push people towards this, but they often also lack the surgery and therapies that would really help you when old. Sure, having someone watching you is nice, but you need more care than just that and it's mostly medical. Your sons aren't a magic bullet against everything that can happen at such age.

 

[sserafim]

Not trying to disagree, but I'd like to see how you arrived at that conclusion. This feels low effort imo.


People like this ironically are who OP refers to. Most countries without good healthcare push people towards this, but they often also lack the surgery and therapies that would really help you when old. Sure, having someone watching you is nice, but you need more care than just that and it's mostly medical. Your sons aren't a magic bullet against everything that can happen at such age.

I don't really have the energy to articulate my thoughts right now but I believe that having children will always be selfish and immoral. Just because you enjoy life enough to have kids doesn't mean that your kids will enjoy life too. The kid's life could be one of complete suffering (like mine for instance).

It's immoral to bring new life into this world without their consent. Also, people only suffer and can only suffer because they're alive. If they never lived, they would never have to suffer. Existence is forced upon everyone, there's no way for people to agree to be born. Therefore, because existence is forced and no one can consent to it, it's immoral to bring new life into existence.

 

[FuneralCry]

It certainly is, in fact it's beyond selfish to impose existence, in fact to me imposing existence is such a disgusting, terrible crime. Because after all procreation is the ultimate source of all suffering and once one exists there is no limit as to how much they can suffer in this existence, it's undeniable that existence is so incredibly harmful yet so unnecessary.

The only compassionate and rational outcome is to leave the non-existent alone in peace and not be cruel enough to impose this futile and burdensome process of slowly dying where it isn't like we can easily die in peace even know we never consented to any of this. It is so incredibly horrible to me how humans create so much suffering by deciding to procreate when this species could have gone extinct a long time ago.

 

[Pluto]

 

[sserafim]

View attachment 128998

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People like this ironically are who OP refers to. Most countries without good healthcare push people towards this, but they often also lack the surgery and therapies that would really help you when old. Sure, having someone watching you is nice, but you need more care than just that and it's mostly medical. Your sons aren't a magic bullet against everything that can happen at such age.

I refer to all parents and people who want children. Having children is also selfish from a biological perspective. The desire to have children is an inherently selfish one because it allows you to transmit your genetic material to the next generation and ensures the continuation of your genome. Procreation is selfish by nature.

 

[Pluto]

?

Very well, I'll try and offer something quasi-substantive.

Regarding selfishness, is there any possible action that is truly unselfish? Even altruism is driven by an individual's desire to feel good or empathically share in another's wellbeing. We could start bringing no-self states into the discussion, though I have no direct experience of that. I can only comment on what life experience I have had.

I remember when I was a kid, my sister had a strong dislike of children (including a dislike of me, now that I think about it) and preached routinely against procreation. However, around 20 years later, after many twists and turns of life, she ended up having a daughter. It should be no surprise that people in different age groups and situations can have wildly different perspectives, and understanding this helps to 'de-radicalise' us into thinking we are ever 'right' about anything. As an old fart I used to know liked to say, "I'm too old to know everything."

In my early 20s, I had the first inklings of thoughts about children, though I was very isolated anyway so it was nothing but an ungrounded fantasy. Years later, when a friend had 2 children, my perspective crystalised. The authentic joy that the young ones felt at seeing me, the affection overload when the little girl demanded I carry her... I'd never experienced being loved and feeling human. It was indescribable.

At one point, I even worked professionally with children and, though challenging, the experience was warm, authentic and enriching. Genuine bonding and the vicarious re-living of innocent times. Suddenly, all of my sister's old anti-children ranting sounded like the hollow mechanical droning of a juvenile mind compensating for being cut off from any genuine human emotions.

That said, relationships of any kind with C-PTSD were impossible and decades passed. Now, I'm in that 'too old' age bracket anyway and it wasn't to be. And now, I have yet another perspective.

My friend's young romance ended up with total abandonment on the part of the father, and she herself was diagnosed with bipolar which is less than ideal for a single mother. Endless emotional drama, though the situation could have been far worse. Many other former colleagues who had it all went through the horrors of divorces, financial ruin, bitter break-ups, loss of contact with children and other such nightmares. It all went full circle and suddenly, I was lucky to dodge a massive bullet.

There are also very real issues like human overpopulation, the descent of human behaviour into of primitive tribalism, our loneliness epidemic, societal wealth inequality, daily atrocities against nature and the likelihood of my next generation experiencing some similar bullying and mental struggles as me. Furthermore, advanced spiritual people who I respect, like Nisargadatta Maharaj, have advised people to keep life simple - which implies reproduction is not a good idea from that ultimate perspective, either.

The bottom line? I can only make decisions for myself based on hopefully having both rational cognition and human emotional faculties reasonably intact. I do feel sadness that whatever joy (however fleeting) is associated with parenthood is not going to be for me (and is maybe not a good idea for most people, or the ecosystem) but I mind my own business since I'm not some wise, all-seeing being who should tell others what to do.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Primarily I think yes, it is. I imagine most parents have children in order to experience that special bond. Or, they were horny and careless and then, just went along with the results. Or, they gave in to societal pressure.

I'd hope that most don't do it with the intention of being selfish. They are (hopefully) hoping that the child will enjoy life. Still- it's different to forming a relationship with a friend or a partner. That can also be for selfish ends but- at least the other person had a choice and, they continue to have more of a choice in a way. Adults have more freedom to break away from other adults. Children are likely stuck with their parents for better or worse for at least 18 years. They are likely utterly dependant on them and so much falls into their hands as to what kind of life that child and later, adult will have. A f*cked up childhood raises the chances of them having severe difficulties in life.

Maybe unkind to say it but, is it not the ultimate selfish act in a way? To bring a sentient being here deliberately, knowing the risks. I imagine a lot of the time though, they are looking at life through rose tinted glasses. I can't believe that they thought every scenario through certainly.

Your child may be born with or develop numerous health problems at any stage. Your child may be bullied. They may experience depression or other mental health problems. They may not be able to find a job. They may never be able to support themselves financially- are you willing or even able to do that for the entirety of your life? Either they could potentially die before you or, they will have to watch you die one day. Very possibly suffering beforehand. They may become suicidal. Will you be willing to let them go? But no, I suspect they just focus on the good times they'll likely share.

It's selfish because you can't decide how another person should turn out and be angry with them if and when they don't. Which I think a pot of parents are- disappointed. Why are they disappointed? Because they had an expectation on the independent being they chose to bring into this world, that they aren't fulfilling their obligations. Isn't it selfish to create a sentient being and then ladle it with obligations and expectations?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I'd argue that while yes, the act of creating children is inherently very selfish (it feels good for most people thanks to hundreds of millions of years of biological programming), being a parent and all the effort it takes to actually properly raise a child still requires a great deal of selflessness if done right. So many people who do have children end up lamenting the loss of their personal or free time because of having to take care of their children and putting the needs of these children above their own.

Unfortunately so many of the people selfish enough to create children nowadays aren't then willing to transition into becoming selfless enough to help those offspring in the best way they can. Society as a whole nowadays seems to have reached a point where almost all the people fit to be the best parents are also the only ones selfless and intelligent enough to not have them in the first place.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Having children is inherently selfish.

Not necessarily. Cases in which the person doesn't actively decide to have children, such as in cases of rape, accidental pregnancy, or in cases in which the mother/couple are being pressured and coerced into having children, shouldn't be labelled as selfhish since they had no say in the matter.

I think it's better to say that "actively deciding to have children is selfish" so that these cases don't get clumped in with cases of people actually being selfish.

With that out of the way, I do agree that deciding to have children is selfish. I don't understand people who try to argue that it's a selfless act when in reality any reasoning for why someone would want to have children always comes down to how it benefits them. Nobody consents to being born and existing as a human comes with a variety of expectations and responsibilities that are forced on to you by your family and society as a whole. Do you think I love it when my parents emphasize the importants of me doing well in uni so that I don't have to struggle like they did? Even though I understand that they mean well, being reminded that if I fail I'll end up suffering like them causes me to become even more anxious about the inevitable. I never wanted to be born and for a longtime I wished I was aborted. I still wish they had aborted me. I can only imagine how much worse it must be for those apart of households where parents hold their children to near impossible expectations that would send most people into a series of severe mental breakdowns.

This isn't even getting into the fact that children are one of the most dehumanized demographics in our society and most people would prefer to keep it that way rather than reflect on our treatment towards these little humans and trying to do better.

My mom used to whip me with a belt (not to the point of bruising or anything) and when her professor for one of the classes she was taking back when she was studying to become a social worker told the class that hitting children was child abuse, instead of actually listening to the professor she just started to defend hitting children. You tell people like her that research shows that hitting, whipping, and yelling at children isn't good for them and they respond by getting defensive. I may have turned out fine but a lot of children end up suffering from all sorts of issues with regulating their emotions, displaying their more vulnerable emotions to others, communication, etc, because of these parenting techniques but nobody wants admit that. My dad has trouble with handling his anger and I think that my grandparents, especially my grandmother, beating him when he was younger is part of why. My mom also has problems with her emotional regulation, likely as a result of being beaten.

Children are basically just dolls for parents to play with. They are people for parents to live through. They are given birth to with the expectation of parents getting something in return. People will call you selfish for wanting to be childfree but childfree individuals are the least selfish people in our society. A lot of them actually took the time to consider the potential childs well-being and came to the conclusion that it would be best for them not to have children.

The world is going down the drain as we know it so why force someone to be brought into this world? People who decide to have children are the most selfish people alive. Life isn't a gift. We only call it that when it comes to humans but in reality our species reproducing is about as "special" as cockroaches reproducing. We aren't special. A lot of people today are depressed and miserable and, with no legal and safe suicide methods, are trapped here.

 

[doormat25]

Attachments are selfish.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't think that having children is always selfish or, more accurately, I don't think that having children is always rooted by a selfish desire by the ones who gave birth to the child (or directly contributed to it). After all, those types of pro lifers who claim that they want to have children for the sake of their betterment can't be considered as selfish if they focus on the children's sake even if their logic is stupid. Don't get me wrong, I believe that their logic isn't quite substantial as the children wouldn't suffer if they never existed to begin with and the children didn't ask for life or regret not existing before their birth. There is no reason to create a child for the child's sake as procreation is what causes the child to have needs and desires in the first place. However, even if their logic isn't quite sound, they can't be considered as selfish as they have no selfish intentions

I'm aware that I'm not describing all pro lifers here as some do have children for a selfish desire when it comes to procreating but there probably are exceptions

In addition to this, I think that most actions that people do are self serving. I wish that less people had children but unfortunately people will continue to be born to suffer because most of us are selfish or self serving

 

[sserafim]

Children are basically just dolls for parents to play with. They are people for parents to live through. They are given birth to with the expectation of parents getting something in return.

I agree. I think that most parents see their children as playthings and as extensions of themselves. Parents impose many expectations on their children and get mad at their children if they don't meet these expectations. They also want to mold/shape their children into what they want the child to be. They never consider the child as their own independent person. Personally, my parents wanted me to go to medical school and become a doctor even though neither one is one. My grandma also wanted my mom to be a doctor but she chose a different path, and instead she did it to me. Parents don't actually care about the child's personal interests, wants and desires. I also think that people have children due to societal and familial expectations and to "fit in".

Parents expect their children to be successful and get mad if they aren't. Many parents use their children in an arms race against other parents, living vicariously through the achievements of their children. They like to compare their children to other kids, and show off and brag about how successful their own are. They basically see their children as trophies, show ponies and commodities. This is a toxic culture.

My parents are mad at me because I've failed to launch after college and instead became a NEET/hiki. They view me as a failed investment and a waste of their time, energy, money and resources. They also expect me to provide for/take care of them in old age (they think that I owe them) and for the vicious cycle to continue all over again (my dad wants and expects me to get married and have children to continue the family line, I'm not doing any of those things, he can go f*ck off). I hate how parents impose their expectations onto you as if you aren't your own person with your own agency.

 

[Heidi48]

from my experience growing up- i remember my friends talking about wanting to have kids, the "maternal urges' they felt and me pretending to feel the same just to fit in, but knowing deep down i didn't want children and wondered what was wrong with me. ive always felt that way. i was lucky enough to meet a man who felt the same as me. but even still to this day i could be in work and meet someone new and they ask "do you have a family?" i say yes, and they ask how many kids and i respond "none" and they say "well maybe one day if your lucky"... my opinion is that people have kids because that's what society expects , its the norm. its probably more selfless to be self aware that you cant afford a child or give it the stability it needs

 

[sserafim]

from my experience growing up- i remember my friends talking about wanting to have kids, the "maternal urges' they felt and me pretending to feel the same just to fit in, but knowing deep down i didn't want children and wondered what was wrong with me. ive always felt that way. i was lucky enough to meet a man who felt the same as me. but even still to this day i could be in work and meet someone new and they ask "do you have a family?" i say yes, and they ask how many kids and i respond "none" and they say "well maybe one day if your lucky"... my opinion is that people have kids because that's what society expects , its the norm. its probably more selfless to be self aware that you cant afford a child or give it the stability it needs

I never wanted children either and I hate how society imposes these expectations upon us. I've never felt any maternal urges either, I don't like kids and I've never wanted to have, raise or nurture them. I hate how society expects women to become wives and mothers. I'm definitely not becoming a wife or having kids and I won't even adopt them because I just don't like them. I'm not a care-taker or nurturing by nature, it's just not in my blood. I don't have any motherly/maternal instincts and have no desire to have any. Maybe I was man in my past life or something.

I hate how everyone is expected to conform and anyone who deviates from the norm is seen as "weird" and "abnormal". I think that most people go through life in a trance and don't ask themselves if what they're doing is what they actually want or if it's just what they've been conditioned and told to do. I hate how we're expected to have a partner, family and children. I don't want any of these things for myself yet my dad eventually expects me to. Ugh, it's so annoying. I hate how people expect you to change yourself and abide by the norm just to fit in. Fuck that, I'm doing what I want.

 

[Heidi48]

I never wanted children either and I hate how society imposes these expectations upon us. Personally I've never felt any maternal urges, I don't like kids and I joke about how I must have been a man in my past life or something. I hate how everyone is expected to conform and anyone who deviates from the norm is seen as "weird" and "abnormal". I think that most people go through life in a trance and don't ask themselves if what they're doing is what they actually want or if it's just what they've been conditioned and told to do. I hate how we're expected to have a partner, family and children. I don't want any of these things for myself yet my dad eventually expects me to. Ugh, it's so annoying.

100% agree.its nearly easier for me to say ive fertility issues than saying ' i just dont want kids' . we need to stop asking those type of questions.

 

[DarkRange55]

I suppose going to the gym is a selfish act, too… just saying
Its likely a societal construct because its the biological / evolutionary purpose in life as an animal on this planet to propagate the species and reproduce. Whether or not that is inherently evil may be debatable. Nobody can "choose" to be born but they can choose to exit.
I'm not defending or criticizing anyone, just explaining.

We do not know if humans are alone in experiencing existential dread, and it might be an avoidance mechanism rather than a bug...

Death and end are quite different. The purpose of life is to pass on genes, it is not to end. The purpose of gene-based life is to pass on genes. If we didn't die, the purpose would be to duplicate genes.

 

[Bianka]

Care to ellaborate? While I see where you're coming from I consider myself an antinatalist but this doesn't really contain anything to further discussion. The biggest counterargument is that improvement cannot take place if we "give up" so you basically refuse a scenario where we work on politics economics and overall well being and stability. Make nothing of philosophy and any kind of knowledge we worked up over history.

 

[sserafim]

Care to ellaborate? While I see where you're coming from I consider myself an antinatalist but this doesn't really contain anything to further discussion. The biggest counterargument is that improvement cannot take place if we "give up" so you basically refuse a scenario where we work on politics economics and overall well being and stability. Make nothing of philosophy and any kind of knowledge we worked up over history.

See #5, #8 and #15. Why is improvement and continuous growth the goal though? Perfection is unattainable anyways, perfection is like a lofty goal that can't be reached.

I suppose going to the gym is a selfish act, too… just saying
Its likely a societal construct because its the biological / evolutionary purpose in life as an animal on this planet to propagate the species and reproduce. Whether or not that is inherently evil may be debatable. Nobody can "choose" to be born but they can choose to exit.
I'm not defending or criticizing anyone, just explaining.

We do not know if humans are alone in experiencing existential dread, and it might be an avoidance mechanism rather than a bug...

Death and end are quite different. The purpose of life is to pass on genes, it is not to end. The purpose of gene-based life is to pass on genes. If we didn't die, the purpose would be to duplicate genes.

Just because no one can choose to be born makes it unfair that everyone was brought here against their will. There's a saying called "better to never have been". It's better to have not experienced life at all than to experience pain and suffering. This is why procreation is selfish because your own biological desires and impulses to ensure the continuation of your DNA to the next generation make you create new life into this world which will almost definitely experience pain and suffering, and you're deciding something for someone who couldn't even consent or have a choice in it.

 

[DarkRange55]

See #5, #8 and #15. Why is improvement and continuous growth the goal though? Perfection is unattainable anyways, perfection is like a lofty goal that can't be reached.

Just because no one can choose to be born makes it unfair that everyone was brought here against their will. There's a saying called "better to never have been". It's better to have not experienced life at all than to experience pain and suffering. This is why procreation is selfish because your own biological desires and impulses to ensure the continuation of your DNA to the next generation make you create new life into this world which will almost definitely experience pain and suffering, and you're deciding something for someone who couldn't even consent or have a choice in it.

I'm personally thankful for life. But morality is subjective and evil is a human concept.

Epicurus, a Greek philosopher who's principles formed the basis of modern day secular humanism said:

1. If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.

2. If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.

3. If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I think evil does not come from god or from mankind or from the devil. Evil is simply part of the fabric of the universe. Something that engrained in nature itself. A force for destruction and creation. A force identified with the suffering that all living things endure. The lion kills the gazelle. It orphans the gazelle's children to feed its own. One ant colony goes to war with another and the winning ants secure a larger territory. A group of chimps gangs up a single chimp who is not part of their group and beats him brutally to death. And in the process they weaken their competitors for land and mates. Just because human beings have reached a higher level of consciousness than the beasts who kill each other for territory, for mating rights or for food, doesn't mean we have outgrown these evils. If anything the advent of our technology, the fruits of our mental prowess have made us the most evil and ruthless creatures yet. It is as Shakespeare said, "the fault lies not in our stars, but in ourselves." In the directives implanted in our brain by the survival mechanisms instilled in us through billions of years of evolution. Evil had existed for as long as there has been life and competition. We've just been the first species to recognize it for what it is. And lament its horrors. And we will never overcome these horrors as long as we look at them theologically instead of scientifically.

The logical conclusion of Stoic philosophy - happiness is not nothing you should seek out but rather it's an experience and transitory emotional state. It's better to seek daily contentment since it's unrealistic that every moment will be joyful like having to do things we don't like but to still be content in those moments. As you were on the road to fulfillment.

Nobody knows why we're here or how we got here and one day everyone is gonna die and nobody knows what happens on the other side, so take comfort in the fact that everyone struggles with that and knowing and accepting that will for you ahead of others, and try to make the best of life.

See #5, #8 and #15. Why is improvement and continuous growth the goal though? Perfection is unattainable anyways, perfection is like a lofty goal that can't be reached.

Just because no one can choose to be born makes it unfair that everyone was brought here against their will. There's a saying called "better to never have been". It's better to have not experienced life at all than to experience pain and suffering. This is why procreation is selfish because your own biological desires and impulses to ensure the continuation of your DNA to the next generation make you create new life into this world which will almost definitely experience pain and suffering, and you're deciding something for someone who couldn't even consent or have a choice in it.

I'm saying that good and evil are perspectives. Not supporting or criticizing. I'm explaining the biological drive that life has for offspring.

 

[Bianka]

Why is improvement and continuous growth the goal though? Perfection is unattainable anyways, perfection is like a lofty goal that can't be reached.

Because we can look further and think bigger than individuals. You're basically saying that if your hand hurts you should cut it off

 

[sserafim]

Because we can look further and think bigger than individuals. You're basically saying that if your hand hurts you should cut it off

Does it really matter what humanity achieves if it's going to eventually go extinct anyways? Nothing lasts forever, even the dinosaurs who once ruled the world got wiped out from one asteroid. Empires rise and fall, that's just how the world works. Personally, I don't believe that I have any obligation to contribute to the "improvement" of humanity. Humans are just a small blip in the world, the world has existed for billions of years and will continue to exist without us. Humanity is meaningless if you think about the larger scale of things.

 

[Bianka]

@sserafim
I think that's a vague argument. Why did you reply to me? Humanity will go extinct anyways. Not to mention that we don't know that. You can't state something like that as universal truth. Just as "meaningful" and "meaningless" is purely up to perception and individual value system. Humanity faced crisis after crisis throughout hystory and always survived.
You're right tho you don't have any obligation to contribute to society just as no one has to you to purposefully make humanity extinct.

 

[RedIris]

Wouldnt say in all cases. If a couple really wants a child that they will take care of then no, i think its a beatiful thing.

But keeping a child that you dont want and will resent for the rest of your and their life, definitely is. Mothers like that are the scum of this earth. They cant even be called mothers if they will raise their child in hatred and misery