"Having a mental illness is not your fault but it is your responsibility."

[woxihuanni]

I'm not sure what the 'but it is your responsibility' clause adds, apart from subtly re-shifting the blame and guilt back onto the subject so that whoever pronounces it can assert their will and dominance.

I mean, imagine if this was said of an illness like cancer or aids.
"Having lung cancer is not your fault but it is your responsibility".

Um, ok. I guess it's your responsibility in the trivial sense that anyone's life is their own responsibility, but It seems out of place to say this in the context of an illness. Seems like a way of immediately attenuating/extinguishing the compassion expressed in the first part of the sentence, so that a power dynamic of inter-personal dominance can be quickly reasserted by whoever pronounces it.

It callously diminishes whoever it is aimed at.

How about "having a mental illness is not your fault, and I'll help you through it whatever it takes"?

Applied to suffering people as opposed to abusive people excusing themselves by personality disorders such as sociopathy, precisely.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I don't disagree with anything here. The precepts are there in all religions, though, plus held by everyone who has no religion. Hardly anybody would say lying or losing control through substance abuse is OK. As for suicide because of madness, his grandfather had at least the guts for that. He was a daughter rapist, beater, alcholic and he hanged himself.

Mental disease is of course handed down generations in multiple ways. However, none of it is an excuse for torturing me systematically which he again and again confessed to doing (and blaming for it, too!).

Ah, I didn't realize from your post that you were talking about yourself in the third person as a rhetorical tool. Of course you have my empathy and a reusable comforting hug for whenever you may want it, if ever.

Yes, some form of the precepts can be found in most religions and systems of social ethics and morals. But not all are covered in, say, the ten commandments. I may be in error, but I believe the most common precept found in a variety of religions and philosophies for moral conduct is the golden rule, whether as "do unto others" or in the inverse as "don't do unto others." It pre-dates Judaism and is found in ancient Asian, Middle Eastern and African cultures. It's been a while since I read about it, but it shows up almost everywhere since Zorastrianism and perhaps before, I don't recall the earliest examples. It seems to be hard wired in us as social animals as a guide, and yet we don't naturally act that way -- this when I get butt-hurt offended at evolution because I feel like I got screwed and there's an intelligence that should be blamed (and should is a very dangerous word).

I agree with you that it was not an excuse. I want to share here how I understand it, not to one-up you or take away from the power of your story. For me it is connection from a stance of respect, equality and empathetic understanding. Once again, what you wrote drew out so many things from heart, experience and intellct to examine. I'm putting it in a spoiler because it might be too much for you at this particular difficult moment, and because others may not want to see me go on and on. So it's there if desired, and no offense if it is not. But I honor and thank you for being someone who inspires me to go deeper. The depths I went to may not be where you want to go for now. I don't want you to feel invalidated. I want you to know I respect you, and I respect your experiences, past and present. The shit's fucking hard. I used to be woo-woo and loved "namaste," and I'm over it. To you I say, "the deeply wounded and respect-worthy human in me acknowledges and honors the deeply wounded and respcect-worthy human in you."

Spoiler

It also was not an excuse for my mother's 10-year pattern of specific systematic emotional, mental and physical abuse, which I definitely experienced as torture, though in different ways than you experienced and not at as high a level, but for me it was more than intense enough, hence how it resonates that, yes, it was torture. She spontaneously obliquely confessed once about 15 years ago by saying that she brought some of the domestic violence from her childhood home to me, but she never took a step toward reconciliation and didn't at all change being controlling, and her patterns reached the ultimate stage of scapegoating, casting me out into the wilderness, never to return.

As I said, not an excuse, but we each have recognized there are root causes for the behavior. My biological mother is also controlling and twisted up, and can't handle having it rejected or called out. There are long family histories of abuse from my parents and my biological mother.

I'm not perfect, I have nature and nurture issues from each, but I went the direction of the abuse stopping with me, when it would have seemed more likely that I would have continued the patterns. I dont know why I'm different, I talked in another thread about people being scapegoated being more likely to have a strong moral compass and strong skills for managing adversity and challenges, and along the lines of my conversation here with @Burzolog, it wasn't a conscious choice to be that way, nor to be able to take criticism and work with it even when it stings. I remember in my early 20s I was being very controlling with someone in the same manner as my mother and I thought, "No, I don't want to be like that." I slapped a boy in the face when I was 11 and it didn't feel good, and I've never done it to anyone again. My cousin's father was my mother's sibling, and he also was abusive, with strong narcissistic and histrionic personality traits. My cousin also stopped the pattern with him, and stayed in an undesirable marriage because he refused to abandon his kids as his father repeatedly abandoned him. I really respect my cousin, and though we're not close, I think if he knew about the abuse I experienced and knew me now, he would respect me, too. I respect you for not continuing the patterns of abuse you experienced from others.

I recently read something, I think by Elie Wiesel. He stated very clearly that it one's responsibility to not abuse others, even if the entire culture is doing it. If it was he who wrote it, I think perhaps he did not consider what his own culture would have done if they were manipulated in to believing as the German populace did under the Nazis. I think he was not able to step back and see it from a broader perspective that has compassion for the populace as well as for the victims. He was a staunch supporter of Israel and believed that the land is the ancient right of the nation to hold, and could not see the violence, oppression and tyranny the state has enacted against others. I recognize this is an incendiary topic for some and I mean no disrespect, I am looking at this from a secular perspective of how one can claim a moral right to violence against another. I think that perhaps he didn't have the understanding of how such manipulation can occur and how it is as powerful as the group mentality that occurs in riots, when people act against what they think are the morals that guide them at all times. We humans do a lot of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves we are right, and those who have been victims of extreme and/or prolonged abuse tend, I think, to see things in black and white, and can't see that oppressors have in some way been oppressed, too, and it literally may not be in their power to be otherwise. It's hard to hold opposing but equally true views. There is a kind of empowerment in being a victim, an earned righteousness, that tends to miss what the Stoics and Dostoyevesky, among others, have pointed out: that each human has the capacity for all human behaviors, that while the good may take the greater part of the heart, evil will, at best, remain in a corner, but there is always a bridge to it, it can never be fully closed off. Moral wounds are the worst, whenever someone has crossed that bridge against it, or when we ourselves crossed it and believed that we never would or could.

A final long thought. When I was in Army basic training, we were taught that one of the rules of the Geneva Convention was that if we were given an immoral/illegal command, it was our responsbility to not follow that command, much like Elie Wiesel exhorted. What it actually does is create scapegoats such as the female private who was court martialed and imprisoned for torturing inmates at Abu Garib, including posing for photos with those in the process of being tortured. Humans are hardwired to be influenced by authority, whether doctors, executives, or military leaders. In certain environments, in certain conditions, under certain influences and pressures, we may do things we find atrocious and not realize just how atrocious our acts are.

I recognize that I didn't give you validation here in my comment. I know you're in a difficult space right now, and I know you feel strongly what you feel and think, and I have respect for what you experienced and for you just as you are. I empathize with what you think and feel, and I have so much compassion for it. But I see in your writing struggles I also have had, and I think it's dangerous to go to extremes that villianize another who did villainous things, because in such a mindset, it becomes possible to also do horrible things unaware and to justify them out of a sense of being righteous and right. It's scarily easy to cross a line one would never cross; certain attitudes and feelings can blur the line when one is near it, and convince them that somehow it is right or excusable to cross the line. The Milgram experiment is a prime example of this. Abu Garib is an example that resonates with the authority influence in the Milgram experiment. Sometimes we are influenced beyond our control, and if we can handle the pain of waking up to the fact that it happened, it can cause a moral wound if we were certain we could and would never cross certain lines, such as I'm sure the volunteers in the Milgram experiment must have experienced and why such experiments are no longer allowed by human subjects reviews. The antidote to that horrific, soul-level shame is empathy that comes from sharing it with equals, such as what occurred when James Stockdale was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnnam, and he emotionally survived those wounds because every time one of the prisoners returned to the cells from having been tortured to act against their country and fellow prisoners, other prisoners would say, "You're not scum, we've all been through this, let's talk about it, we understand what you've been through and how you feel." But along with that, he always kept a level of personal responsibility. When he would review the torture he would think, "Where could I have done better? Where could I have held on just a moment longer?" That helped him prepare to handle just a little bit better the future torture he knew would eventually happen again, and he came out of those seven years, I think, wounded but resilient. He used shame and adversity to benefit, hone, and strengthen him wherever possible.

 

[woxihuanni]

Ah, I didn't realize from your post that you were talking about yourself in the third person as a rhetorical tool. Of course you have my empathy and a reusable comforting hug for whenever you may want it, if ever.

Yes, some form of the precepts can be found in most religions and systems of social ethics and morals. But not all are covered in, say, the ten commandments. I may be in error, but I believe the most common precept found in a variety of religions and philosophies for moral conduct is the golden rule, whether as "do unto others" or in the inverse as "don't do unto others." It pre-dates Judaism and is found in ancient Asian, Middle Eastern and African cultures. It's been a while since I read about it, but it shows up almost everywhere since Zorastrianism and perhaps before, I don't recall the earliest examples. It seems to be hard wired in us as social animals as a guide, and yet we don't naturally act that way -- this when I get butt-hurt offended at evolution because I feel like I got screwed and there's an intelligence that should be blamed (and should is a very dangerous word).

I agree with you that it was not an excuse. I want to share here how I understand it, not to one-up you or take away from the power of your story. For me it is connection from a stance of respect, equality and empathetic understanding. Once again, what you wrote drew out so many things from heart, experience and intellct to examine. I'm putting it in a spoiler because it might be too much for you at this particular difficult moment, and because others may not want to see me go on and on. So it's there if desired, and no offense if it is not. But I honor and thank you for being someone who inspires me to go deeper. The depths I went to may not be where you want to go for now. I don't want you to feel invalidated. I want you to know I respect you, and I respect your experiences, past and present. The shit's fucking hard. I used to be woo-woo and loved "namaste," and I'm over it. To you I say, "the deeply wounded and respect-worthy human in me acknowledges and honors the deeply wounded and respcect-worthy human in you."

Spoiler

It also was not an excuse for my mother's 10-year pattern of specific systematic emotional, mental and physical abuse, which I definitely experienced as torture, though in different ways than you experienced and not at as high a level, but for me it was more than intense enough, hence how it resonates that, yes, it was torture. She spontaneously obliquely confessed once about 15 years ago by saying that she brought some of the domestic violence from her childhood home to me, but she never took a step toward reconciliation and didn't at all change being controlling, and her patterns reached the ultimate stage of scapegoating, casting me out into the wilderness, never to return.

As I said, not an excuse, but we each have recognized there are root causes for the behavior. My biological mother is also controlling and twisted up, and can't handle having it rejected or called out. There are long family histories of abuse from my parents and my biological mother.

I'm not perfect, I have nature and nurture issues from each, but I went the direction of the abuse stopping with me, when it would have seemed more likely that I would have continued the patterns. I dont know why I'm different, I talked in another thread about people being scapegoated being more likely to have a strong moral compass and strong skills for managing adversity and challenges, and along the lines of my conversation here with @Burzolog, it wasn't a conscious choice to be that way, nor to be able to take criticism and work with it even when it stings. I remember in my early 20s I was being very controlling with someone in the same manner as my mother and I thought, "No, I don't want to be like that." I slapped a boy in the face when I was 11 and it didn't feel good, and I've never done it to anyone again. My cousin's father was my mother's sibling, and he also was abusive, with strong narcissistic and histrionic personality traits. My cousin also stopped the pattern with him, and stayed in an undesirable marriage because he refused to abandon his kids as his father repeatedly abandoned him. I really respect my cousin, and though we're not close, I think if he knew about the abuse I experienced and knew me now, he would respect me, too. I respect you for not continuing the patterns of abuse you experienced from others.

I recently read something, I think by Elie Wiesel. He stated very clearly that it one's responsibility to not abuse others, even if the entire culture is doing it. If it was he who wrote it, I think perhaps he did not consider what his own culture would have done if they were manipulated in to believing as the German populace did under the Nazis. I think he was not able to step back and see it from a broader perspective that has compassion for the populace as well as for the victims. He was a staunch supporter of Israel and believed that the land is the ancient right of the nation to hold, and could not see the violence, oppression and tyranny the state has enacted against others. I recognize this is an incendiary topic for some and I mean no disrespect, I am looking at this from a secular perspective of how one can claim a moral right to violence against another. I think that perhaps he didn't have the understanding of how such manipulation can occur and how it is as powerful as the group mentality that occurs in riots, when people act against what they think are the morals that guide them at all times. We humans do a lot of mental gymnastics to convince ourselves we are right, and those who have been victims of extreme and/or prolonged abuse tend, I think, to see things in black and white, and can't see that oppressors have in some way been oppressed, too, and it literally may not be in their power to be otherwise. It's hard to hold opposing but equally true views. There is a kind of empowerment in being a victim, an earned righteousness, that tends to miss what the Stoics and Dostoyevesky, among others, have pointed out: that each human has the capacity for all human behaviors, that while the good may take the greater part of the heart, evil will, at best, remain in a corner, but there is always a bridge to it, it can never be fully closed off. Moral wounds are the worst, whenever someone has crossed that bridge against it, or when we ourselves crossed it and believed that we never would or could.

A final long thought. When I was in Army basic training, we were taught that one of the rules of the Geneva Convention was that if we were given an immoral/illegal command, it was our responsbility to not follow that command, much like Elie Wiesel exhorted. What it actually does is create scapegoats such as the female private who was court martialed and imprisoned for torturing inmates at Abu Garib, including posing for photos with those in the process of being tortured. Humans are hardwired to be influenced by authority, whether doctors, executives, or military leaders. In certain environments, in certain conditions, under certain influences and pressures, we may do things we find atrocious and not realize just how atrocious our acts are.

I recognize that I didn't give you validation here in my comment. I know you're in a difficult space right now, and I know you feel strongly what you feel and think, and I have respect for what you experienced and for you just as you are. I empathize with what you think and feel, and I have so much compassion for it. But I see in your writing struggles I also have had, and I think it's dangerous to go to extremes that villianize another who did villainous things, because in such a mindset, it becomes possible to also do horrible things unaware and to justify them out of a sense of being righteous and right. It's scarily easy to cross a line one would never cross; certain attitudes and feelings can blur the line when one is near it, and convince them that somehow it is right or excusable to cross the line. The Milgram experiment is a prime example of this. Abu Garib is an example that resonates with the authority influence in the Milgram experiment. Sometimes we are influenced beyond our control, and if we can handle the pain of waking up to the fact that it happened, it can cause a moral wound if we were certain we could and would never cross certain lines, such as I'm sure the volunteers in the Milgram experiment must have experienced and why such experiments are no longer allowed by human subjects reviews. The antidote to that horrific, soul-level shame is empathy that comes from sharing it with equals, such as what occurred when James Stockdale was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnnam, and he emotionally survived those wounds because every time one of the prisoners returned to the cells from having been tortured to act against their country and fellow prisoners, other prisoners would say, "You're not scum, we've all been through this, let's talk about it, we understand what you've been through and how you feel." But along with that, he always kept a level of personal responsibility. When he would review the torture he would think, "Where could I have done better? Where could I have held on just a moment longer?" That helped him prepare to handle just a little bit better the future torture he knew would eventually happen again, and he came out of those seven years, I think, wounded but resilient. He used shame and adversity to benefit, hone, and strengthen him wherever possible.

It's funny that I actually have compassion for him, despite all the anger at what he is driving me to. He is a coward, weak, deluded that my destruction is his salvation. Rather than a villain, I see him as a drunk driver who wrenched the wheel from me. (Not that I would want to be single-handedly at the 'wheel', but you get the point.)

He thinks he is numb to the idea of my death. Numb either breaks at some point and hell comes through, or it stays and you beg to feel anything, anything at all. Numbing yourself is not salvation.

And there is no offense at all. Thank you as well for everything you share, and your kindness. Mutual feelings from me to you.

 

[BitterlyAlive]

I think I know what they're getting at, but it still hurts to read. I've tried very hard to manage my issues and it's still too much. Am I being a victim? According to the quote...probably

 

[Secrets1]

I try to view the illness seperately from the problems of life, otherwise it can feel like a self pity party and it gives people a reason to sit and dwell.

I try this so f'ing hard... Can't do it and get out of my own head. It's tough to control when issues are related to physical brain damage + preexisting trauma. Don't know how to fix... dying for N :-(

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Oh right ok.
So what's all this anger stuff that GPE mentioned?

Yea. A lot of them were also too angry for my liking too. Like I still get it and have reason to be angry myself, but I also just wasn't feeling angry enough as them I guess.

Also they have way too many terms to learn. Here you only really need to learn CTB, SN, and N from A to get by, you know what I mean?

 

[Secrets1]

Yea. A lot of them were also too angry for my liking too. Like I still get it and have reason to be angry myself, but I also just wasn't feeling angry enough as them I guess.

Also they have way too many terms to learn. Here you only really need to learn CTB, SN, and N from A to get by, you know what I mean?

I Lol'd

 

[BipolarGuy]

Yea. A lot of them were also too angry for my liking too. Like I still get it and have reason to be angry myself, but I also just wasn't feeling angry enough as them I guess.

Also they have way too many terms to learn. Here you only really need to learn CTB, SN, and N from A to get by, you know what I mean?

I don't know what you mean by terms?
I can't imagine what terms could arise?

I get they're angry towards women, but beyond the ill-defined bluster, what is their actual issue with women and why does their anger extend to ALL women?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think I know what they're getting at, but it still hurts to read. I've tried very hard to manage my issues and it's still too much. Am I being a victim? According to the quote...probably

I'm bummed to see you hurt by the quote.

From what I've read here and elsewhere, you have taken responsibility to try to manage it and to get get for managing it. There are lots of folks who don't want to manage or don't want help, and other folks can have knee-jerk to them not doing so. Anyhow, whether or not you want it, it's in your yard, and you do the best you can to take care of your yard. If someone calls you a victim because you can't do more, I will beat them up...in a totally non-violent way, of course.

 

[Mr2005]

True. Not only is it my responsibility it's also my fault.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Well I never got to actually be with her so in a way, I am a volcel? Either way you're right that it's all too complicated and a lose-lose situation to be in.

Are volcels and MGTOW the same thing? Or does the MGTOW crowd just avoid commitment while having casual relationships with women?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Are volcels and MGTOW the same thing? Or does the MGTOW crowd just avoid commitment while having casual relationships with women?

Honestly I don't even know but they do seem to indeed be volcels by definition. I never even heard of them before until I googled them just now though.

 

[XYZ]

I am mentally and physically ill, and have been for all my adult life. As in all things, I believe it is my responsability to do my best to take care and myself provide for myself, and not expect or demand that others do it for me. But that applies only as long as I am able to do so.

There have been both short and long periods of time during my life when I was impaired to such a degree that I could not take care of myself. And during those times, I believe the
responsability shifts to the health care system and the insurance system. The state must step in and take responsability for me when I am unable to, because what's what welfare is for.

As far as people who can't work because their impairment prevents them for doing so, I believe they should receive money and health care from the state in order to have a chance to live and feel as good as possible.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Oh, I thought you were more active there. Sorry.

Nah, it's alright. I definitely come across as someone from there sometimes but as I said before, the experience was kind of eye-opening and I realized I'm not as much like the community as I thought...

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Nah, it's alright. I definitely come across as someone from there sometimes but as I said before, the experience was kind of eye-opening and I realized I'm not as much like the community as I thought...

Especially now when you are a volcel.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Are volcels and MGTOW the same thing? Or does the MGTOW crowd just avoid commitment while having casual relationships with women?

What is MGTOW?

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

What is MGTOW?

Men Going Their Own Way. Men who have decided that they do not need relationships with women. Usually these guys went through a bad divorce, custody battle etc. and they do not want to risk going through something similar again.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Nah, it's alright. I definitely come across as someone from there sometimes but as I said before, the experience was kind of eye-opening and I realized I'm not as much like the community as I thought...

I'm pleased that you are able to recognise that you would rather not be a part of it, rather than be sucked in for the sake of acceptance.

One question: if a "simp" and his/her partner have a little boy, is that little boy referred to as a simpson?

 

[Lupgevif]

Whatever. The same people who say that are those who say "you must not bear your burdens alone, ask for help", but will not go further than spitting generic advice once you ask.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Men Going Their Own Way. Men who have decided that they do not need relationships with women. Usually these guys went through a bad divorce, custody battle etc. and they do not want to risk going through something similar again.

Oh I agree. Don't trust women.
They'll just drag you to a secluded area and ask you to do magic tricks.

 

[262653]

Is that kind of like how some people on this site call others "pro-life" for not actually being "pro-death"?

Interesting that you said that, because I've never seen anyone here being called a pro-lifer for not trying to persuade or encourage someone to die.

 

[mahakaliSS_MahaDurga]

Oh I agree. Don't trust women.
They'll just drag you to a secluded area and ask you to do magic tricks.

Yes, they will do that after they've effortlessly seduced you on a suicide forum.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Interesting that you said that, because I've never seen anyone here being called a pro-lifer for not trying to persuade or encourage someone to die.

Ok dude.
Anyway, how are you?

Yes, they will do that after they've effortlessly seduced you on a suicide forum.

Effortlessly.
And before you know where you are, they've got the Ouija board out.

 

[262653]

Ok dude.
Anyway, how are you?

You were implying that there are "people on this site who call others "pro-life" for not actually being "pro-death"". I was wondering if you would be willing to provide any proofs to back it up, and if not, what would be your retort. But damn, "ok dude"? That was efficient.

 

[BipolarGuy]

You were implying that there are "people on this site who call others "pro-life" for not actually being "pro-death"". I was wondering if you would be willing to provide any proofs to back it up, and if not, what would be your retort. But damn, "ok dude"? That was efficient.

I'm currently developing a full mathematical theory in order to prove what I said.
Not only will I provide quotes as well as evidence obtained via multiple FOI requests, but I will also demonstrate through the use of analytic number theory that the frequency with which such posts appear on this site is related to the distribution of prime numbers.

It's going to take a while for me to write this paper so please keep yourself hydrated.

 

[262653]

I'm currently developing a full mathematical theory in order to prove what I said.
Not only will I provide quotes as well as evidence obtained via multiple FOI requests, but I will also demonstrate through the use of analytic number theory that the frequency with which such posts appear on this site is related to the distribution of prime numbers.

It's going to take a while for me to write this paper so please keep yourself hydrated.

Honestly, a single quote to demonstrate that what you said does actually take place would do the trick, but I understand if even that would be too much.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Honestly, a single quote to demonstrate that what you said does actually take place would do the trick, but I understand if even that would be too much.

You're right, it's just too much.
It's all too much.
All of it!

That's why a mathematical description is required.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Only you can take responsibility for your life. That doesn't mean you have to take responsibility for your life. You don't have to do anything and you should (attention!) stop letting others tell you how to live.