Discussion Has society romanticized the death of women while overlooking mens?

[Emerita]

Edgar Allan Poe believed "the death of a beautiful woman is, unquestionably, the most poetical topic in the world." This idea that a woman's death, especially when she is young and beautiful, is seen as particularly tragic and beautiful has existed for centuries. It's not so much that death itself was feminized, but rather that female mortality had been romanticized.

The connection between beauty and death isn't new. In the Middle Ages, tuberculosis (TB), often called the "romantic disease," became a symbol of femininity. Pale skin, fragility, and flushed cheeks were associated with both beauty and death. The deadly disease became something to admire and even idealize. Although men and women were equally affected, women were more often portrayed in this light. This is also when vampire myths became popular, partly because TB's symptoms (such as pale skin and coughing up blood) resembled the traits of these fictional creatures. Sontag's Illness as Metaphor

In the past, death was also a public spectacle in many ways. In Paris, for instance, the public morgue became a place where people could view the bodies of the dead, with many visitors coming daily. The bodies of women, particularly those who died by suicide, became central to this morbid form of entertainment. While their corpses were on display and just a cloth covered their sexual parts. These deaths were not just mourned they were admired, preserved in wax in some cases, and turned into a kind of art. The morgue received up to 40,000 visitors a day at its peak and closed in 1907. The History of the Paris Morgue

This view of women, both in life and in death, comes from the historical belief that women are weaker than men and need protection. Women were given a sort of 'other' identity. When a woman died, especially in a way that fits the ideal, her death was often seen as beautiful. But in reality, this view takes away the agency over her own life and death. bell hooks' The Will to Change examines how women have historically been reduced to mere symbols of beauty or fragility, with little recognition of their full humanity. In the Victorian era, women who were married didn't hold legal personhood this is why rape was once considered a crime against the husband or father, the word meaning to seize property/ carry away, further enforcing traditional gender roles and objectifying women as property.

Traditional gender roles hold a certain image this causes oppression and suffering. We see higher suicide rates among men, does this have anything to do with that. Is the glamourized death of young women relevant today and is it both being harmful to men and women?

Also this is the Victorian era Im talking about, this period saw the rise of a "cult of mourning" where loss, the death of a young woman particularly was a consumed as poetic entertainment. I haven't said my thoughts but I'd like to hear anyones thoughts on this. I just went down a rabbit hole when I heard about the Paris morgue being a popular attraction.

 

[Cauliflour]

I assume it's because men are seen as disposable and "weak" for succumbing to disease or emotions but women are "special" and "have to be protected" because they're the baby incubators, they can't just go and get killed! It takes 9 months for a baby to grow inside of her but a man can just fuck and leave.

A young woman killing herself? Well think of all the potential babies she could've made! A young man killing himself? Eh the gene pool is better off without him.

It's all bullshit but it's so deep rooted in culture that I don't think the average person really thinks about it much which sucks as both men and women deserve to be treated with the respect they deserve.

 

[Emerita]

I assume it's because men are seen as disposable and "weak" for succumbing to disease or emotions but women are "special" and "have to be protected" because they're the baby incubators, they can't just go and get killed! It takes 9 months for a baby to grow inside of her but a man can just fuck and leave.

A young woman killing herself? Well think of all the potential babies she could've made! A young man killing himself? Eh the gene pool is better off without him.

It's all bullshit but it's so deep rooted in culture that I don't think the average person really thinks about it much which sucks as both men and women deserve to be treated with the respect they deserve.

On the flip side of death theres those who grieve. Women (widows) were allowed to mourn, expected to physically display the grief, while men had to continue on with their social duties, if their wife died in childbirth he would need to marry right away. which also enabled the already held beliefs and behaviours of the culture.

 

[Actovania]

People just romanticize the deaths of those useful to society. For those forgotten by society, their deaths are also.. forgotten. The death of a "young, beautiful woman" is romanticized throughout literature, but so is the death of a male soldier making his last stand. But notice in this comparison the man has to make such an effort in his last moments to be remembered. Anyways I would say you're mostly right with some exceptions. There are always us at the bottom who will be forgotten no matter what our gender is.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

They don't romanticize the death of women, just beautiful women. An ugly young woman who killed herself would be invisible and forgotten.

 

[Ariii]

Wow, this is a super interesting topic that I've never thought about before. I definitely agree with the idea of vulnerability, I think it might have to do with purity. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these women displayed/written in these senecios are young and considered to be the beauty standard. Dying young and beautiful would essentially freeze and persevere a woman's innocence and purity, before it could be taken from her by *gasp* sex.

With men, they have very much been seen as disposable. As some people in this thread pointed out, they are only really celebrated in death after a heroic action. Death without this, especially prematurely, is probably seen as a bit of a failure in a traditional male role and the protector, provider, etc. after all, if you can't protect yourself, how are you going to protect your wife and kids. Plus the deaths of a father historically could lead to complete financial ruin for a woman, especially if she had kids to take care of and could not find a job that would accept a woman. So therefore, the death of the man, especially without a "good" reason, just meant he failed at his one role as man.

 

[Forever Sleep]

This is really interesting. I'd never heard the connection between TB and vampires.

Beautiful young women who suicide are certainly still given a lot of attention. I'm not so sure in a romanticized, idealised way now though.

The general public probably wouldn't appreciate seeing pictures of their corpse although no doubt, they could find their way onto gore sites. I think a lot of people would find that disturbing now though. We might be morbidly curious but, taking a more sexual interest in corpses I think many would feel troubled by.

However, people are all over pictures of them whilst alive. It does seem to be seen as especially tragic when a beautiful young woman takes her own life as opposed to an unattractive one or a regular looking guy. I wonder if the same beauty qualifications apply to men quite so much.

I noticed it again recently though in the suicide of this lady. I made a thread at the time:

Responses when 'beautiful' people suicide.

I know this has been commented on before and obviously, I hope this lady is now resting in peace. Plus, whoever the person and their level of attractiveness, families I'm sure suffer the same grief. However, have you become aware of this story: Obviously, she was especially attractive. It's...

sanctioned-suicide.net

I think the value is placed on their worth if they had remained alive though now, rather than their death. I get the sense we tend to view it more as a tragic loss of potential now.

Really though, that in itself rattles my feminist chains. What is about them you're so sad to see gone as opposed to some other stranger? Their beautiful body? So, even if their life was falling to pieces, they served the role of being ogled over? I just find it an unpleasant trait really we seem to have.

The same goes for when people go missing. There's the whole: Missing White Woman Syndrome that points out the difference in media coverage when a young, pretty, white, (usually blonde) haired woman goes missing as opposed to just about anyone else.

Personally though, it's tended to be male artist deaths I've romanticized. Van Gogh (although, it may not have been suicide,) Kurt Cobain, Robin Williams. It's not about their corpses for me though. It's more the action of suicide itself. As a reflection of life. As an act of autonomy.

I don't know that regular people romanticize suicide at all though. Maybe it would be more accepted if they did.

 

[Nothing Left]

Femicide occurs all day, everyday, around the world and no one gives a fuck.

No one cares about women dying unless they're hot, and even then they want to rape them in death.

 

[wham311]

In prison crimes against women are seen as despicable and will get you absolutely brutalized. So even criminals care deeply about women getting mistreated. The rub is, there's also criminals that mistreat women.

 

[quins]

I've certainly, in my time, never felt the "glamour" of death, and there's just no squaring the incompatibility of "romantic" conceptions of death with the whole lived and gangrenous affair (I mean, admittedly, the threat of death in society has completely vanished from public life. The answer for most isn't to become Jungerians but to simply let the rot kick in...)

I think that the higher rates of suicide in young men are weaponized somewhat, often with a sharply political bent. In terms of which pain is "privileged" over the other, I don't think men and women are directly comparable both in the content nor expression of their individual neuroses, and I've found that, in general, male neuroses support far greater representation, which has of course died down in recent years save for niche RW factions who look at this stuff.

As a mental image, my mind is instantly "drawn" to the male suicide as silent, "Houellebecqean" in nature, while the female suicide is of the Monroe type, or maybe a Lupe Velez or two. I'd be no sooner drawn than quartered if I were asked to justify that position...