Discussion Gunman CTBs before carrying out massacre

[TAW122]

I wouldn't think that this would be a thing, but I suppose in today's world, things that most people wouldn't normally expect that would happen happens (even the unlikely...). Anyways, I thought I'd share the news article (I provided two articles of the same news story) as well as have a discussion about the news article since this is an interesting situation.

Man kills himself instead of carrying out US amusement park shooting, police say

Colorado authorities say heavily armed 20-year-old found dead at Glenwood Caverns Adventure Park during closing hours

www.theguardian.com

“Extremely lucky”: Disaster averted at Glenwood Caverns after body, guns and bombs discovered

Maintenance crews discovered the man’s body in a women’s bathroom Saturday morning while getting ready to open the park, Garfield County Sheriff Lou Vallario said during a virtual news …

www.denverpost.com

Questions for discussion:
What are your thoughts on people who CTB and avoided carrying out a horrific event?

Do you think this would change the narrative that pro-lifers have about people who CTB?

Do you consider his action to be heroic and honorable?

Additionally, do you think this could also cause unnecessary surveillance and stricter monitoring/paternalism towards firearms ownership and acquisition?

Finally, for people who would CTB via firearm, do you think this would send a strong message of freedom of choice and mercy? (Mercy being that "he" could have done LOTS of damage but chose not to, to spare pro-lifers their right to live, even if they (the pro-lifers) don't reciprocate/return the favor.)

TAW122's analysis:
I see the quote "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become a villain." applicable towards this situation. This is because he could have done a lot of damage, but chose not to. He died a hero by preventing/stopping himself (his evil side) from acting out and causing immense harm towards innocent and unwilling participants (the patrons at the amusement park). His suffering also ended and while many pro-lifers consider CTB to be unacceptable (maybe some "may" make an exception to it given the circumstances...), I consider it to be an positive outcome as his suffering has ended and no unwilling participants or innocent bystanders were harmed.

Finally, these two articles are the ones that don't have the awful obligatory three digit hotline number in the article.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes, I would definitely say he was a hero. Still, I'm not convinced the pro-lifers out there would see it like that. If he'd been killed in trying to protect civilians from another gunman- maybe. Still- I expect they would just view him as sick. They're probably grateful that disaster was avoided but I don't know- I think some will still hold on to the belief that he could have been 'cured' and gone on to live a peaceful life full of rainbows. . Maybe he even could have stood as an example to other would-be homicidal gunmen that- a cure is possible.

Depends on the level to which they see life as valuable and how much faith they have in the mental healthcare system. Some seem to think that all issues are curable and that people owe it to themselves and everyone else to get themselves all fixed up. Personally- I think they're delluded and condescending. Not to say all people can't be helped but some certainly don't seem to benefit. A lot of people here for instance.

People do know right from wrong. People either give in and act on bad desires or, try to fight them. Surely- they themselves know better than anyone else- whether they can be cured. Especially if they have already tried stuff like therapy and meds. It's unfair to expect people to linger on while doctors and therapists experiment with drugs and treatments trying to hit on the right one and leaving a trail of unwanted side effects behind. Especially if that person is fighting thoughts of hurting others. I think they did the honourable thing by preventing themselves wreaking carnage.

The shocking thing is- I have had conversations with people here who were battling sadistic thoughts. They hated themselves for having them and they were afraid thry would act on them. They had been through the mental healthcare system in their country and their experience had been awful. So- they CTB- presumably successfully.

People should be focusing on the systems that fail these people. These people are amazing- they come forward and admit to authorities that they could well be a danger to people. If they are ignored, or their treatment is bad- society shouldn't lay the blame entirely on them if things end badly.

 

[Amyend88]

I imagine he changed his mind due to seeing how happy the children were. There have been a fair few serial killers in the UK, but they never target children, and let them go if they come across them during the event. All except one, the evil guy who went and shot up Dumblane school. Only one comes to mind in America too, who targeted children. Children are always innocent and even cold blooded killers can't usually justify that.

 

[TAW122]

Yes, I would definitely say he was a hero. Still, I'm not convinced the pro-lifers out there would see it like that. If he'd been killed in trying to protect civilians from another gunman- maybe. Still- I expect they would just view him as sick. They're probably grateful that disaster was avoided but I don't know- I think some will still hold on to the belief that he could have been 'cured' and gone on to live a peaceful life full of rainbows. . Maybe he even could have stood as an example to other would-be homicidal gunmen that- a cure is possible.

Depends on the level to which they see life as valuable and how much faith they have in the mental healthcare system. Some seem to think that all issues are curable and that people owe it to themselves and everyone else to get themselves all fixed up. Personally- I think they're delluded and condescending. Not to say all people can't be helped but some certainly don't seem to benefit. A lot of people here for instance.

People do know right from wrong. People either give in and act on bad desires or, try to fight them. Surely- they themselves know better than anyone else- whether they can be cured. Especially if they have already tried stuff like therapy and meds. It's unfair to expect people to linger on while doctors and therapists experiment with drugs and treatments trying to hit on the right one and leaving a trail of unwanted side effects behind. Especially if that person is fighting thoughts of hurting others. I think they did the honourable thing by preventing themselves wreaking carnage.

The shocking thing is- I have had conversations with people here who were battling sadistic thoughts. They hated themselves for having them and they were afraid thry would act on them. They had been through the mental healthcare system in their country and their experience had been awful. So- they CTB- presumably successfully.

People should be focusing on the systems that fail these people. These people are amazing- they come forward and admit to authorities that they could well be a danger to people. If they are ignored, or their treatment is bad- society shouldn't lay the blame entirely on them if things end badly.

I see, and I agree with you that some of the more militant pro-lifers who delusionally believe that ALL people are curable (given enough treatment, time, and effort) are just absurd. Even if we did suppose that it was possible (after hundreds of exhaustive different kinds of therapy, including experimental ones, countless years like decades or so), the benefits may not outweigh the cost from a societal/healthcare resource perspective. Ultimately, it is disrespecting a person's bodily autonomy and the biggest problem is that there is no limit to how much endurance of suffering one has to go through just to maybe see the light at the end of the tunnel. But these militant pro-lifers nonetheless still consider that a victory. It's really despicable and cruel on their part of course, plus presumptuous and sadistic to subject those people to go through such arduous processes. I suppose having a finite endpoint and a waiting period would be a much better compromise (for example, person tries at least 2-3 different therapies and treatments, at least two independent professionals, about a year at most waiting period, and if the person doesn't improve and still wishes to die, they get the green light GUARANTEED, no objection, protest, ifs, ands, or buts!). But like you said, the militant pro-lifers are just delusional and condescending so any 'reasonable' concession is unacceptable to them.

Finally, yes it would be in the best interest of society, government, and everyone collectively if the masses and government focus more on fixing the system that failed people who otherwise fell through the cracks and/or would have sought help had there been better support and recovery systems in place. For starters, one of the most important thing is to abolish or limit forced intervention only to danger to others and specifically 'imminent' danger. Then also get rid of unreasonable detentions (being held for up to 72 hours at any given time under the pretense of being a danger to oneself or others, especially without due process). Along with that, legalizing or at least loosening up the paternalism in CTB prevention efforts and programs would also go a long way in having more people open up, especially knowing that they have a choice, they have civil rights, and would not be automatically branded as mentally ill, irrational, nor have their voice silenced before they can demonstrate their soundness of mind.

I imagine he changed his mind due to seeing how happy the children were. There have been a fair few serial killers in the UK, but they never target children, and let them go if they come across them during the event. All except one, the evil guy who went and shot up Dumblane school. Only one comes to mind in America too, who targeted children. Children are always innocent and even cold blooded killers can't usually justify that.

That seems to be a possibility, but it may also be other factors to, perhaps the would be gunman/shooter decided that it would just not be worth it for his 15-minutes of fame (while being hunted down, or shot on sight by first responders, or if he survived - lots of legal consequences) and just went to CTB to get it over with.

 

[loopdaloop]

"I am not a killer. I just wanted to get into the caves"

What are those "caves" he was referring to? I'm curious to know what was his motive behind all of it but good for him that he decided to take the honorable route.

However, these kinds of stories of people ctbing to avoid harming others usually don't make much noise and are forgotten rather quickly because in the end of the day it's not much of a protest if no one is affected by it, this won't change any pro-lifer's mind about ctb.

 

[TAW122]

What are those "caves" he was referring to? I'm curious to know what was his motive behind all of it but good for him that he decided to take the honorable route.

However, these kinds of stories of people ctbing to avoid harming others usually don't make much noise and are forgotten rather quickly because in the end of the day it's not much of a protest if no one is affected by it, this won't change any pro-lifer's mind about ctb.

I don't really know his motive. As for these kinds of stories, I suppose you are right, they simply gets forgotten since there were no casualties besides the would-be gunman and no else is harmed or at risk of harm. I do wish that if stories like these change at least a few pro-lifers (not militant ones because they will never change, they will live the rest of lives being hardline pro-lifers, immutable), then I believe there is some value in small victories...